ok..vinny was already away when they were more prominent and the younger group (sarros , roman and caesar, the peps) all came of age...so no they werent around vinny..there was an army of blood relatives, almost all with balls. for the most part did their own thing but on good terms with salemes and rosetti etc..the joe black thing was personal..bobby sr was friendly with ralphy chong, wouldnvisit him while he was away.....from what i understand , they were losing a proprerty they had, joe took someone to the bank to buy it auction. he waswarned to back off..he didnt..and subsequently was split in 2 in a social club in front of people...