I'm seeing two points of view here that have validity and I think both sides would be wise to understand where the other comes from.
I think all Moe is trying to say is not to be cast under any false illusions of Hollywood dramatization of Mafia life. Fundamentally, these are not good people. What makes the Mafia fascinating to many including myself is that you have a criminal group of people who are committed to operating outside of the law. They devote their lives to flouting authority, yet they ascribe to a rigid paramilitary structure within their own ranks. It makes for an interesting dichotomy, and over the years there have been examples of both the "Men of Honor" to borrow Joe Bonanno's term for it, but let us not forget that there have been plenty of other examples of guys devoid of any redeeming moral character whatsoever. Most may well be somewhere between those two on the spectrum.
Further to Moe's point, and as I mentioned in the thread lamenting the passing of Frank Cullotta - let's not forget these are bad guys. If you were the one being shaken down for a third of your store's revenue in pizzo, you wouldn't be happily handing over your hard earned profits because of how cool these mob guys are. If your son or daughter were lost to heroin imported and distributed by Matthew Madonna you wouldn't be defending these guys. They have victimized tens of thousands of people in the past century.
There's plenty of middle ground. There are the guys who "victimized" and even brutalized people that deserved it, or at least who knew the risks and rolled the dice (perhaps literally). But there are the innocent as well; honest people who did their best and found themselves extorted or otherwise taken advantage of.
I'm like you, NYMafia - I love the history of the Mob and I'm fascinated by the many dichotomies it presents. It speaks to so many things - brotherhood, parallel government, honour, greed, and the list goes on. That's what makes it interesting and why five decades after the Godfather we still eat up Mafia themed movies and TV shows, even as the real-life power of the Mafia has significantly diminished.
I also love WWII history and have read just about anything I could get my hands on about Hitler -- that does not make me a Nazi. Likewise, I love mob history (and current events) but that doesn't make me a mob sympathizer. Though I admit, without reservation, that to does fascinate me.
I think maybe what people are taking offence to in Moe's stand is that he might say some of this with a certain moral high-handedness when the reality is he's just like the rest of us - each fascinated in our own way by the legend, fact and fiction of the Mafia. But I must agree with his underlying point here: most of these guys are not deserving of hero-worship. Save that for the veterans and first responders and the people who show true courage every day.
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Eastside, my compliments. You have evaluated the situation (and the underworld landscape) exceedingly well. For ALL the reasons you enumerated and many more, the mob holds a fascination for us like no other. I do agree there are many low-lifes in the mob. Animals and degenerates who should be burned at the stake, with NO redeeming qualities whatsoever. Stone killers who hurt people with little to no provocation. Guys who actually hoped they could hurt someone. Those type of guys are no good! And there is NO excuse or justification for them.
If you traffic in hard narcotics for years, a drug that truly destroys life and the fabric of families, you are a POS in my book. Period! If you go out of your way to extort innocent people. Or you abuse and rob innocent folk, you are a "slug".
On the other hand there are many wiseguys and racketeers who are solid people. Basically "good people" who "do some bad things" if that makes any sense to you. I come from that world, and that way of thinking, and I've seen firsthand really good people, "altruistic" as hard as it may sound to the ears, who may have been bookies, policy rackets guys, ran dice and card games, slot machines, even lent money at exorbitant rates (shylocks). But it's just what they did for a living. If you won, you got paid. If you lost, they wanted their money. If you borrowed money, full well knowing the terms they wanted, the "vig" (and had every right to expect it, because you made a handshake agreement). There were others who may have been "fences" or hijacked trucks (they saw it as taking from big business and the insurance companies who rob us daily). etc etc. Not to moralize it, but to just explain it... That was their way of life.
Yet, they raised families and kids who graduated college and became doctors, lawyers, and captains of industry. Mafiosi who instilled the highest morals and integrity into their children. They didn't want this life for their kids. They may have been who they were, and did what they did, but knew to want better for the next generation.
Street guys would help a neighbor at the drop of a hat, or support your family if you went broke. I've seen wiseguys actually dig into their own pockets for thousands to feed a guys family (not fellow mob guys, but just neighborhood people), or pay his rent. (And refuse to accept payment back when the guy got on his feet - no strings attached).
I've seen wiseguys drop what they were doing, and run out asap to give some bum a beating because he insulted a friends daughter or wife, cheated or otherwise abused a legitimate friend, or his family.
I've known many guys who attended church regularly, ran successful businesses that gave to their community (not drained the area as they are always suspected of doing). Wiseguys who actually were loved by their community for all the help they provided to average folk over the years.... they may have been "hoodlums" and "mafiosi", but
their neighborhood considered them "OUR" mafiosi, and actually tied to protect them from harm.
Ran restaurants with delicious, top quality food and drink, operated dry cleaners, laundromats, trucking firms, etc etc. Ran them well, and were highly valued businesses in their respective areas.
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So the sword cuts both ways.
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And not to speak for my partner because she can well defend herself, but all I really think she longs to do is explain to the public about how many times (in fact more often than not), Italian defendants who get painted with the "mafia paint brush", don't get treated fairly by the judicial system. OUR laws on the books are to be fairly and evenly implemented if ALL Americans are to get a fair trial. Yet there have been (and continue to be), way too many cases where the prosecution (and the FBI) play fast and loose with the laws because the feel nobody cares about a mafia guy. And they can skirt law doctrine and "cheat" if you will to earn a conviction.
***Remember this. A very important point. When a prosecutor wins a so-called "Mafia" case, it is a major career booster for him and the agents involved. Its how they get recognition and reach a higher career post.
That same prosecutor could win 20 "non-mafia" cases, that are just run-of-the-mill cases, and they earn "ugotz!"
So there is a huge incentive here to WIN, WIN, WIN, at any cost. Organized crime related cases anyway. If they convict "Vito the Wolf", they win brownie points. If they convict "Leroy", they win zip!!
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But having said that, I agree that I do think that the way forum members convey their feelings regardless of their views has a lot to do with pushback and arguments. "Its always nice to be nice." There is a way to convey your feelings without denigrating others.
In closing, Eastside, let me again compliment your oratory skills and writing style because I think you explained it well. I just wanted to give insight to "the other side". After all, I am "The Other Guy" LOL
PS: I more thing you said was "there's a lot of middle ground" in this conversation. BINGO!! Great statement and oh so true. There is good and bad in everything, in every faze of our lives. Mob guys are no different. They cry, bleed, and love their kids and pets as do we all. Many of em just work "outside" some of the laws that are on the books. Thats all!
