I get that this argument won't go anywhere. It's evidence vs. street knowledge. When the two conflict, I (personally) go with the evidence at hand, as opposed to uncorroborated street knowledge. If people disagree, that's on them.

BUT. I will reply to Bensonhurst, since he is questioning the 'logic' of my argument. But with Rooster, and Giacomo, and others, there is really only so much I can say. I can say "Brian Cohen is not a Buffalo crime family associate" and Rooster can say "Yes he is." I can't argue with that, because anyone can make the argument that the feds are wrong, or that DAs are wrong, or that journalists are wrong.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Nicky;

I do no think you can compare Buffalo to other defunt families for a few reasons:

1) Maggidino headed the commission at one point.
2) Buffalo had 200 made men, they were bigger than 3 of the 5 families and Chicago.
3) Buffalo was set up as the gate keeper of the Canadian border from the days of prohibition them and Bonnano were the only families to have powerful crews on both sides of the boarder. The Bonnano's lost that when the Rizzuto's broke away, so Buffalo remained as the only family to have that route intact.
4) The other smaller families some had 20-30 Made men at their peak it is alot easier for those familes to die off.
5) At 200 Made memebers you had their sons, nephews, cousins etc to carry on the tradition.
6) The Canadiin smuggle route is stil intact today and as per current LE, that pipeline is being used to smuggle drugs onto U.S. soil.
7) That smuggle route is a racket onto itself.
8) How does Clevland, Dallas or even Tampa compare to Buffalo, as far as I know Trafficante Jr. really had all the power not so much his organization, pretty much everything died with him.

Nicky consider this if the Genovese family dwindled down from 200 made mebers where about they are today to say 20-30 guys would a lot of experts consider them being dead in relative terms?

That would be a 90% decrease, do you really need a squad for say 20 made guys?

Look at it this way if the 5 familes decreased in membership from where they are today say 700 made guys down to just 70 would the FBI need multiple squads to cover them? And would the overall opinion of the mob as a whole be that it is DEAD?

Yes however, it does not mean they are defunct....
and that does not mean that if the attention is taken away from them that they would not have the capacity to build from 20 to 30 to 40 again.



You throw around the 200 made members number, but by 1989 there were only 45 made members. 45! And that was BEFORE they began to feel the effects of the FBI.
If the Buffalo crime family had 200 members in 1989, and then they got under the thumb of the feds (like all families in America did), then they would have certainly survived and they would probably still be active today. But when the FBI launched their attack against the Buffalo mob, the crime family was ALREADY down to 45 made members. Which means a far quicker demise for a family, and an easier job for the feds.

I am not saying that the FBI is the sole reason for the Buffalo mob's downfall. The family actually began shrinking after Stefano Magaddino's death. In fact, according to Matt Gryta, the family's influence was waning by 1979. For those who don't know, Gryta is a veteran crime reporter for the Buffalo News who has worked at the Buffalo News for five decades. He is quite knowledgeable on the mob all over the states.

Stefano Magaddino, even before he died, caused a rift in the family. Then, after his death, there was another conflict in which Joe Todaro Sr. came out the victor. He did a good job at patching things up for awhile, but it was too little too late and by 1989 the family had gone from 200 made members in the 50s and 60s to to 45 made members. Then, the family had a spate of informers due to the FBI's onslaught, the Vegas connection was severed, the union control was dismantled, and loansharking & gambling books were hit. Joe Todaro Sr. stopped the family getting into narcotics as best he could (although members began to get involved in drugs when he semi-retired to Florida), which means the Buffalo mob never had a big foothold in that market. They were definitely into gambling and loansharking, but here's what Lee Coppola said about that:
"But like a lot of businesses, the mob found that when the economy goes bad, profits shrink and eventually even disappear. The region's declining population, the loss of thousands of factory jobs with weekly incomes and convenient locales for betting played a major role in the decline of the Buffalo Mafia. The customer base evaporated, and mob leaders weren't wise enough -- or strong enough -- to find other sources of income to fill the void."