It's only been twelve hours Rooster. I had to read up on the articles you linked.



There's union corruption, but there's not a crime family running the union corruption.
Rooster, I have never, ever argued that there are no longer criminals in Buffalo. I'm not trying to argue that the crime rate in Buffalo is now zero because the Todaro crime family is defunct. The crime family was booted out of the unions, and it was very, very effective. Now, NickleCity might argue that the feds are working with the Todaro mob, but I don't think that's what you're arguing, Rooster. At least I hope it's not.


If you read that article, you'll see that nowhere do they try and say the Todaro mob is still active. Nowhere. They refer to it as a "former brutal criminal enterprise." It makes sense that there'd be infighting in that union. It comes as no surprise to me. The feds took it over, they booted the mob out, and then they left, possibly causing the infighting and potential power vaccuum we see here.

Tell me, in what way does that article show any form of mob corruption?


Ok, so no 2005 bust. That's fine. But what is the bust where you said two soldiers were arrested for drugs and guns? And sorry, but I musta missed the 2012 bust, which were the ones I asked for.
That Red State article wasn't a bust. It was a report of a leadership dispute in the union.


They were not mob busts. The Cohen bust was not a Buffalo crime family bust. You are claiming that it was a Buffalo crime family bust, whereas the feds (who actually made the bust), said it was a Lucchese bust. Cohen has never been linked with the Buffalo mob. The feds never mentioned the Buffalo mob. So no, it's not a coincidence. At all.
You can't find the 2005. So that doesn't count.
I don't know which bust was the 2012 bust, but I don't know if you've linked it.

The Ciminelli bust was also not a mob bust. Have you read the indictment? There were no allegations of any sort of Mafia involvement. And if there was any sort of Mafia involvement, you don't think that would have been described by Todd Howe?? Howe was an informant who uncovered the whole thing yet, surprise surprise, he didn't mention the Mafia or organized crime at all. Howe was a key player in the operation. He was the one taking the bribes. He was the one on the take, and later became an undercover informant to take the whole thing down. Howe spilled the beans on everything. You think he'd leave out such a vital detail as Mafia involvement?
The crimes in the Ciminelli bust were related to the bribery of government officials to save money on developments. There is no indication the mob would have anything to do with that. It's a scummy fraud practice that doesn't require some goon to break people's legs. The closest thing that the Mafia got to that case was the fact that Percoco and Howe referred to the bribe payments as "ziti."



Yes, because it's likely that the union still as corrupt aspects. U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara even said that there is a corrupt "show-me-the-money" culture that plagues Albany.


You say the family as a whole as not been touched, but they have. Just not to the extent of other families across America. I agree that Detroit is the most untouched mob family in America today when it comes to law enforcement, but they still get the occasional arrest. Law enforcement doesn't have the capacity or the drive to go after them hard. But arrests are still occasional, and law enforcement has specifically cited that they are still active. It's not comparable to Buffalo. In Detroit the feds acknowledge there is an active mob family, and busts are rare but still happen. In Buffalo, the feds specifically assert that the family is no more, and there are 0 busts. And I mean 0. Rooster's bust show no mob ties, no mention of mob ties, and no mob-related crimes.


The reason people have not had to flip is because nobody has faced serious time. To a mobster, 14 years isn't really that serious. Not a lot of guys flip over 14 years. And in Detroit you have the added aspect that many of the top-ranking guys are related, which is another disincentive to flipping.

But here's the thing. If Rooster is to be believed, and the Ciminelli bust WAS a Todaro crime family bust (despite the feds not saying it was), and last year's bust WAS a Todaro crime family bust, then there HAVE BEEN Buffalo mob informants. Todd Howe, who was (according to Rooster) being bribed by Ciminelli, a mob-backed guy, (Ciminelli and his cronies did bribe Howe, but definitely not with any mob influence). Vincenzo Morena also, who was the catalyst of the indictment and secretly recorded a Bonanno making ceremony.


Yeah, sort of.
I actually haven't seen any evidence whatsoever that the Violis were ever made into the Buffalo mob. And in this recent indictment, they were working instead with the Bonanno crime family, not the Buffalo mob.

But what you are saying is right. If, for the sake of argument, the Violis were once associated with the Todaro mob, they certainly aren't anymore which is why they were working with the Bonannos.



Exactly. There is evidence they were working with the Bonannos, however.