I think you're right about the late 1980s. Thanks for the correction.



When talking about the relative few narcotics cases, yes, because that's what they are. And this latest Grand Ave robbery crew bust is no different.



New England is one family too. So is what's left of the mob in Detroit. So what's your point?

Some have this idea that all the NY guys are tripping all over each other. These people are apparently unaware of just how big the greater NY metro area is. We're talking the 5 NYC boroughs, Long Island, Westchester and northern suburbs, Southwest Connecticut, and North-into-Central New Jersey. This area dwarfs the area in terms of mob territory anywhere else in the country. There's a reason it's always had 5 families - the 5 biggest families - and that's because it's big enough.

You can look at the gambling cases alone as a comparison. Those elsewhere in the country, including Chicago, are rather small compared to the ones in NY.



You talk as if the relatively small numbers in Chicago is all by design. While they have appeared to streamline their operations and downsize in order to have a smaller profile, attrition has been a big part of this. Anyone who thinks otherwise is in denial. People, including myself, were surprised at the most recent estimates by the feds - 25 to 30 members and a little over 100 associates spread across 4 crews at most.



Yes, we still see a dirty cop here or there get busted in Outfit cases. But it's certainly not "almost every" Chicago indictment and there's nowhere near the kind of widespread, institutional corruption like there used to be. And you can find similar examples of dirty cops getting busted here and there in NY as well. To argue for Outfit power based on an outdated idea of police influence isn't going to fly.



There's no evidence for that. Like I said, the drug cases involving Outfit guys at any level are few and far between. At best comparable to some of the other small families outside NY.



If you go down the list of Outfit related cases, many of those things you mentioned above are limited, ad-hoc ventures. Nowhere near the scope we saw in NY with the gas tax scam, phone card scam, pump and dump stock scams, real estate scams, telephone cramming and porn site scams, etc. The political and police corruption is also very limited and often based on speculation and innuendo.



I hear you. I have mixed feelings at best on it. People think I just live to get into these tired arguments but I dont. But when someone starts a thread with a post about the Outfit that is just chalk full of wrong or outdated info, what are we to do. No offense to the original poster but much of it was stuff we saw said about the Outfit on the forums a decade ago and I thought had been largely refuted.



Sounds a lot like NY if you ask me...


Affidavit of John J. O'Rourke, former FBI agent and Independent Hearing Officer Laborers Union of North America


15. The FBI maintains an inventory of members and associates of the Chicago Outfit.

16. The FBI defines a "made member" as a person who has participated in a formalized ceremony and has the right to share in the profits of the Chicago Outfit. A made member has the right to run his own street crew; to make loans known as "juice loans"; to extort "street tax" from local businesses and from gamblers and bookmakers; and to otherwise take control of gambling and bookmaking in his area. A made members is also entitled to the respect of other made members.

17. An "associate" of the Outfit is a person who works on behalf of a made member in the day-to-day activities of the Outfit such as collecting interest on juice loans; collecting street tax; contacting bookmakers; and settling debts. Other "associates" of the Outfit do not participate in the day-to-day criminal activities of Organized Crime but help facilitate these activities.

18. The FBI keeps an inventory of individuals who are associates or members of Organized Crime. In order for the FBI to categorize a person as a member or associate of Organized Crime, certain requirements must be met. Generally, those requirements are that two known made members are heard on a wiretap discussing another person as a made member; or that two known made members are heard discussing a third person as a made member, in the presence of an undercover FBI agent; or that two reliable organized crime informants independently identify a person as a made member.

http://www.ipsn.org/orourke_affidavit.php



It stands to reason that not all of those guys listed above are made if about 30 members has been the max cited by the FBI in recent years.

Also, that administration is largely speculation at this point. I'd wait for more concrete info besides some Internet blogs.



Take the Colombo family, which is generally considered to be the smallest family in NY. It is estimated to have about 100 members and approximately 500 associates.

I typically don't put a whole lot of stock in associate estimates but, for the sake of comparing apples to apples, look at the estimates for the Outfit. 30 members at most and a little over 100 associates.

So, a manpower of something like 600 for the Colombos and perhaps 150 for the Outfit. The smallest NY family being 4 times the size. Those figures for the Outfit are rather similar to estimates for the other remaining small families outside NY, just with the member-to-associate ratio being a little different.

In fact you would probably have too add up all the members left not only in Chicago but everywhere else outside the Northeast to come close to the size of the Colombos.

Perspective.