Senator Nunn. Would you tell us about that? I believe a couple
of occasions. Tell us about the first one.
Mr. Cafaro. I took him twice to Staten Island in the luncheon-
ette there, I forget the name; it is on the paper there.
The first time I took him, it was me, Tony and Vinnie DiNapoli.
We met in this restaurant with Tommy Bilotti. He was caporegime
in Paul's, in the Gambino family, and we went to a house in Staten
L-land. I don't know where the house was. We were driven there by
Tommy, and we went in and there was Paul, there was Tom Mix,
there was Ralph Scopo, Donny Shacks; there was about four or
five. But, anyway, there was, like I says, about five or six members
there.
Senator Nunn. Did you see them?
Mr. Cafaro. Yes.
Senator Nunn. You took Fat Tony there in the car?
Mr. Cafaro. No. We were driven there. I took him to Staten
Island in the luncheonette, but we were driven to this house.
Senator Nunn. Did you go to the meeting?
Mr. Cafaro. I went, but then we couldn t be at the meeting. We
Rood upstairs and
Senator Nunn. "We" being who?
Mr. Cafaro. Me and Tommy Bilotti, and we stood, and there was
four or five more amico nostras up there, wiseguys, and we just sat
upstairs. And what was the discussion? Mostly about concrete and
construction.
Senator Nunn. Tony told you that?
Mr. Cafaro. Yes.
Senator Nunn. Concrete and
Mr. Cafaro. Construction. Paul—every time there was a commis-
sion meeting with Paul, it was always about business, money and
business.
Senator Nunn. What date was that, approximately, do you
mow?
Mr. Cafaro. I don't remember, Senator.
Senator Nunn. Was that in the 1980's or
Mr. Cafaro. 1984.
Senator Nunn. All right. Was there any other commission meet-
ng that you recall?
Mr. Cafaro. I went to another one after that; I drove Tony, but I
lidn't go. I just went to the same restaurant, luncheonette, or
liner, whatever you want to call it, and we were waiting there,
ome wiseguy come and pick us up; I forgot his name. And I didn't
d. He drove Tony there and I was waiting in the luncheonette.
Senator Nunn. You waited there for him?
Mr. Cafaro. I waited at the diner or the luncheonette, whatever
ou want to call it.
Senator Nunn. Did the people like Tony that were going to the
meeting, Tony Salerno, did they worry about being trailed or the
Til or anybody following them?
Mr. Cafaro. No, no.
Senator Nunn. They didn't appear .
Mr. Cafaro. Usually when I drove Tony, I would look in my mir-
ors and try to be careful and go different ways.
Senator Nunn. But they didn't appear to be worried about it?
Mr. CAFARO. No, no.
Senator NUNN. Now, was that the second meeting where they
did think there was an FBI agent?
Mr. CAFARO. That was the third meeting. I wasn't there, I wasn't
present.
Senator NUNN. Tell us about that third meeting.
Mr. CAFARO. It was a meeting in Bari's on Houston Street.
Senator NUNN. Is that a restaurant or what is it?
Mr. CAFARO. No. They sell restaurant equipment, they sell res-
taurant equipment, and Tony had an appointment down there. He
went down with Tony Ducks and Tom Mix. I picked him up to go
to the commission meeting there, and the meeting, from what I
was made to understand, there was Paul, there was Chin—there
was Paul, Chin, Joe Gallo, Donny Shacks, "Jerry Lang" Langella.
Senator NUNN. How many different families was that?
Mr. CAFARO. There was the four families there.
Senator NUNN. Again, which family was not there?
Mr. CAFARO. The Bonanno mob.
Senator NUNN. Was that because of the narcotics involvement?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes. They weren't recognized as far as .
Senator NUNN. So they had four families there. What, a couple
of people from each family?
Mr. CAFARO. There was Jerry Lang and Donny Shacks for the
Colombo mob. There was—Tony was with Chin for the Genovese
mob. There was—for the Gambino mob was Paul and Joe Gallo,
and who was the other one? Luchese was Tony Ducks and Tom
Mix.
Senator NUNN. All right. Go ahead and tell us what you know
about that and what happened at that meeting. You weren't there,
but you found out about it later, right?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes. I was in the neighborhood and Tony had come
back early. Usually, a commission meeting, they last 4 or 5 hours,
6 hours, and he come to the neighborhood and I seen him. He's
huffing and puffing. I says, you know, how come you're back so
early?
Senator NUNN. He was huffing and puffing?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes. I says to him, how come you're back so early?
He says, no; he says, there was the agents down there. I says, no
kidding? He says, yes.
Senator NUNN. What agents?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, Federal agents.
Senator NUNN. Federal agents.
Mr. CAFARO. He says, there was the agents there; he said, we had
to get out. We, you know, went out. He says, I had to go through a
window. He says, they had to push me through the window to get
out. He couldn t fit; he was too fat.
Senator NUNN. He got stuck in the window?
Mr. CAFARO. He got stuck in the window and they had to push
him out, and that was it.
Senator NUNN. So they were worried about the agents at that
meeting?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, this Baldy Dom had—he's a caporegime with
us in our brugad, says he seen an agent outside. So rather than to
get pinched or the a"""*" -n ;n, they all ran.
Senator NUNN. Did you find out whether there really was an
agent out there later on?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, I had asked Rick. He says there wasn't no
agents there, so who knows if there was an agent or there wasn't
an agent? I really don't know.
Senator NUNN. Do you think—we've had a lot of convictions of
the top members of various families in New York and elsewhere.
Do you think there still is a commission in New York?
Mr. CAFARO. To my knowledge, no, and I don't think there will
ever be a commission anymore.
Senator NUNN. Why is that?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, you haven't got the Fat Tonys no more. You
haven't got the Tony Ducks, you haven't got the Tom Mixes. The
oldtimers are not there no more and I say there will never be an-
other commission.
Senator NUNN. You're still going to have the families, though,
aren't you?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, you can talk boss to boss. You send your con-
sigliere there if there's a problem in the family.
Senator NUNN. In other words, you think it will be more boss-to-
boss, one family to another, and not the whole group meeting to-
gether?
Mr. CAFARO. That's right.
Senator NUNN. Why would not their successors follow that pat-
tern?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, why they won't follow the same pattern as the
oldtimers?
Senator NUNN. Yes.
Mr. CAFARO. Well, you haven't got the oldtimers there no more
and the young guys that are there now, they are not as level-
headed as the oldtimers. They are not peace-minded. I don't think
they are peace-minded, which the oldtimers, there was nothing but
peace and if you
Senator NUNN. Well, the purpose of the commission was peace
and you don't believe that that will be organized that way?
Mr. CAFARO. No, because you get a—from what I see of Johnny
Gotti—I met him in MCC, like I said. He ain't going to—he has got
an attitude that, hey, this is my brugad and nobody is going to tell
me what to do. Or Chin ain't going to make anybody tell him what
to do with his brugad.
Senator NUNN. Can you tell us what the consigliere does in the
overall family?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, the consigliere, he's the powerhouse, he's the
strength, because he takes care of all the beefs from the captains.
In other words, a captain can't go to a boss or the underboss unless
he goes to the consigliere.
Senator NUNN. So he's really the
Mr. CAFARO. He's the strength, he's the powerhouse.
Senator NUNN. The operating officer, so to speak?
Mr. CAFARO. Oh, yes. He—whatever decision he gives, that's it.
You don't go—unless it's rare that you want to go further. What I
mean by "further," you want to go to the underboss or the boss.
But once the consigliere gives you his decision, that's it.
Senator NUNN. I understand that you have stated there are cer-
tain new rules for admitting members to the LCN. Could you tell
us what those new rules are?
Mr. CAFARO. I didn't hear you, Senator.
Senator NUNN. I understand that you have stated that there are
certain new rules for admission to membership, for being straight-
ened out, for being a made man. Could you tell us what those new
rules are?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, I don't know about new rules, but I know
there was a new rule put in about 10 years ago because years ago
they used to call in the books when you had to open the books to
straighten out a member. If you wanted to make a guy a member,
the books had to be opened.
It got to a point where the books weren't open for maybe 15, 20
years. The brugads wouldn't open them and what was happening,
the regimes—a lot of oldtimers were dying and the regimes were
getting small.
So a captain with maybe 15, 20 men was down to 8 men, 7 men,
and ifhey were weakening their positions. So they instituted—if a
member dies, they can replace him with another member. That's
the only new rule I knew of.
Senator NUNN. So the books aren't closed now?
Mr. CAFARO. There's no more books.
Senator NUNN. No more books?
Mr. CAFARO. If somebody dies in the regime, he can be replaced
by another member.
Senator NUNN. So it's on automatic pilot now?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes.
Senator NUNN. You are trying to maintain about the same
number of members?
Mr. CAFARO. That's the purpose of it.
Senator NUNN. But not have the membership go down?
Mr. CAFARO. Not have it go down. You're allowed seven men in a
regime and when they got to straighten out a member, they send
his name around. They give it to the consigliere, his name and
nickname, and it goes to the four families.
If there's any grievance against him or if maybe he's a rat or
something, if somebody knows there's something against him, they
would check it out, and that's the purpose of sending the name
around.
Senator NUNN. Were you told anything about the disappearance
of the Luchese family acting boss, Buddy Luongo?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes, Senator. When I was wearing the wire, I was
talking to Ralphie Tutino, and I wasn't aware of it because I think
I was out on bail or something. And he had told me this Buddy
Luongo had an appointment with this Little Vic in Brooklyn and
he went out there to meet him and he never came back. That's all
I know about that.
Senator NUNN. Who is Little Vic?
Mr. CAFARO. At the time I had knew him, he was the consigliere
in the Luchese mob.
Senator NUNN. Do you have any other name, any other name be-
sides Little Vic?
Mr. CAFARO. That's all I know him as, Little Vic.
Senator Nunn. Why are there so many people that you were
with all the time that you don't really know their last names?
Mr. Cafaro. They usually give you their nickname.
Senator Nunn. So you usually don't use last names?
Mr. Cafaro. We don't use last names, no.
Senator Nunn. Were you just known as Fish?
Mr. Cafaro. Yes, Senator.
Senator Nunn. Where did that name come from?
Mr. Cafaro. I don't know. I got it since I'm 8 years old. Where,
how it came from, I really don't know.
Senator Nunn. Just a nickname?
Mr. Cafaro. Just a nickname.
Senator Nunn. Senator Roth.
Senator Roth. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
You mentioned that both Chin Gigante and John Gotti were
claiming part of the profits from the sale of the Bankers and Bro-
kers Building in Lower Manhattan. Can you explain in greater
detail how this came about and whether they did, in fact, receive
part of the profits of that sale?
Mr. Cafaro. Well, there was a situation there—when Paul was
alive, he had sold this property to S&A Concrete, Nick Auletta, I
think, for $4.5 million, with the understanding that he was going to
build a high-rise there.
Now, as it went along he didn't build a high-rise. He was selling
the property, I don't know, for $7, $8, $9 million. That's when Paul
didn t like the idea. In other words, he told him, I sold you the
building with the understanding that you would build a high-rise.
Now, he wanted to turn around and sell it, like I said, for $7 or $8
million; I really don't know.
But Paul wanted half of the profits on the sale of the building
and Tony got involved with that. Then he had never gotten nothing
from Nicky, Paul, but Tony got his share from the sale of the build-
ing.
Now, who wanted to get involved there was Chin, but he put up
a little problem there from what Sammy was telling me, but it
didn't belong to him; it belonged to Tony, and that s how Tony
wound up with the money.
Now, as far as Gotti, I don't know if he got anything out of it; I
doubt it. That's my opinion. He was looking to take over Paul's
share if there was a share for him to—if he was entitled to any-
thing.
Senator Roth. In view of the fact that many of the recent cases
brought by the Government were the result of wiretaps or bugs,
what do you think the LCN will do to take steps to avoid their con-
versations?
Mr. Cafaro. I know they are not going to talk in clubs anymore.
They are not going to talk in places they hang out. They are not
going to talk on phones. If anything, they will send a soldier to an-
other soldier or a captain to another captain, if there's going to be
the consigliere for a meeting, and tell them, say, Bobby or whoever,
Til be at this restaurant tonight at 7 o'clock, to meet me there.
And that's how they would do it, or walk and talk in the streets.
Senator Roth. Will they avoid meeting places they used in the
t?
Mr. Cafaro. Sure, yes.
Senator Roth. Did you know that the Palma Boys Social Club
and the First Avenue Club were bugged, and if so, why did you and
others continue to hold conversations there?
Mr. Cafaro. Well, we were told they were bugged and I guess we
took it lightly. I figured me, gambling and bookmaking; I didn't
care.
Senator Roth. Do you know how Santora knew about the bug?
Mr. Cafaro. Well, he had somebody telling him. From what
agency, I don't know.
Senator Roth. What do you mean by "agency?"
Mr. Cafaro. Well, it could be a police department, it could be the
Government, it could have been anybody.
Senator Roth. Does the LCN have many people in law enforce-
ment agencies or in public office under their influence or control?
Mr. Cafaro. As far as the past amico nostra, 14, 15 years, not
that I know of.
Senator Nunn. Do you know of any high governmental officials
that are being paid or cooperating illegally?
Mr. Cafaro. No, sir.
Senator Nunn. You don't?
Mr. Cafaro. No, no.
Senator Roth. You and others apparently knew in advance who
was going to be arrested or subpoenaed.
Mr. Cafaro. Yes, indictments and subpoenas.
Senator Roth. How did you get that information?
Mr. Cafaro. My nephew, Sammy Santora.
Senator Roth. Where did he get the information?
Mr. Cafaro. I don't know, Senator, but whatever information he
gave us, whatever he told us was on the money.
Senator Roth. It was always accurate?
Mr. Cafaro. As far as indictments and subpoenas, it was on the
money.
Senator Roth. Did you know in advance of your impending
arrest?
Mr. Cafaro. Yes, Senator.
Senator Roth. How far?
Mr. Cafaro. Two weeks before.
Senator Roth. Two weeks?
Mr. Cafaro. Yes.
Senator Roth. How did you know? Who told you?
Mr. Cafaro. My nephew, Sammy Santora.
Senator Roth. And your nephew gave no indication to you how
he acquired this information?
Mr. Cafaro. You can't ask, you don't ask.
Senator Roth. You don't ask?
Mr. Cafaro. No.
Senator Roth. When you got information that you were going to
be arrested, what action did you take?
Mr. Cafaro. I said let them come and pinch me. I wasn't inter-
ested in going on the lamb.
Senator Roth. And so you chose not to run?
Mr. Cafaro. No. I stood home.
Senator ROTH. Was that because you thought the charges would
be relatively minor, such as bookmaking?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, I figure bookmaking and gambling, but I
didn't think I was going to be held a danger to the community. If I
thought that, I would have went on the lamb.
Senator ROTH. You've stated that it's no longer necessary for one
to kill to become a made guy. When did this rule change and why?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, as far as I can remember, 14 years ago when I
was—or 15 years ago when I was straightened out. A lot of guys,
you straighten them out for business because a lot of us don't un-
derstand about construction, whatever, situations like that, electri-
cal work, contracting or plumbing.
We don't understand that there, so you straighten out a guy. You
make him an amico nostra just to take care of business that you
don't have to be there with him, because if you're not a made
member and you're sitting down, you can't sit down with a made
member.
So rather than to be there—say, me, and I don't know nothing
about the construction, to go sit down with a beef about it, I don't
know what I'm talking about. So you straighten out people just for
business.
Senator ROTH. Now, earlier, you told me that you thought the
families would continue and that even though the younger mem-
bers were perhaps less disciplined, that through orientation, train-
ing, whatever you want to call it, that they would become much
like the current members of organized crime.
Yet, at the same time you say you don't think the commission
will ever be recreated because there will never be new bosses like
the old. Isn't that somewhat inconsistent?
Mr. CAFARO. No, that's not inconsistent. Like I says, you get a
Gptti and a Chin. First of all, there's no need for a commission
with them because, like I says, it's not that there's the disrespect.
The respect is there; the respect will always be there.
But a Chin or a Gotti wouldn't need a committee. You do your
thing, I'll do my thing, and that's it. There's nothing taken away
from me and there's nothing taken from you.
Senator ROTH. Now, you mentioned earlier that your family had
no association or contact with Sicily. How about some of the other
criminal groups, such as the Colombians?
Mr. CAFARO. I don't know about them. Well, I have business with
the Cubans.
Senator ROTH. With the Cubans?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes.
Senator ROTH. What kind of business did you have with the
Cubans?
Mr. CAFARO. Number business.
Senator ROTH. What's that?
Mr. CAFARO. Numbers.
Senator ROTH. Numbers?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes, yes. I had Cubans with me.
Senator ROTH. Did any of these groups, like the Cubans, try to
intrude on your area of activity?
Mr. CAFARO. In what way, Senator?
Senator ROTH. Well, did they begin to try to take over some of
the racketeering or gambling business?
Mr. CAFARO. No, no. They want to be with the wiseguys; they
don't want to be against them.
Senator ROTH. They wanted to work with you?
Mr. CAFARO. They want to work with you, yes, and I had a lot of
Cubans with me.
Senator ROTH. There has been no effort on the part of drug traf-
fickers to work with your family?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, if they were fooling around, you know, with
junk or something, I don't know about it, but who knows?
Senator ROTH. What rank did you hold in the Genovese family?
Mr. CAFARO. I was a soldier.
Senator ROTH. Why, particularly in view of your close relation-
ship with Fat Tony, did you not rise higher?
Mr. CAFARO. I didn't want the responsibility. I didn't want to be
responsible. I didn't want to—when he left on a Thursday morning,
I left with him. When you were a captain, you have to be there—
not have to be there; you're on call 24 hours a day in case there's a
problem or beefs or whatever. So that wasn't for me. I wasn't inter-
ested. But you can't refuse.
Senator ROTH. Mr. Cafaro, 2 weeks .
Senator NUNN. Excuse me, Senator Roth. Would you yield?
Senator ROTH. Yes.
Senator NUNN. You say you can't refuse if you're asked to take
that responsibility?
Mr. CAFARO. That's right, you can't. The only reason why I got
away with it is because of Tony. There was a position open at the
time, the caporegime. I says, no, Tony, I'm not interested. He says
all right.
Senator NUNN. So it was handled informally?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes, it was informal. If I would have said
Senator NUNN. Tony protected you when he needed you and you
didn't want it?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes. If, say, Chin would have asked me, I had to
accept. When the consigliere tells you, you have to accept, yes.
Senator ROTH. Let me ask you this question. We had Angelo Lo-
nardo testify before us a few days ago and he said that if he had
his life to live again, he would not repeat his mob activities be-
cause, as he said, it created too many headaches. By "headaches," I
think he was referring to arrests, jail terms, and so forth.
If you had the chance to do it all over again, would you do things
differently or would you again be a member of the family?
Mr. CAFARO. In my honest opinion, I would be a member of the
family, but I would do it in a different way. I wouldn't be close to
Tony or any boss or any consigliere. I'd just stay by myself, a club
or whatever, and that's it.
Senator ROTH. But don't you, as a member of a family, have to
do what they tell you to do?
Mr. CAFARO. Sure.
Senator ROTH. Well, then, how can you stay
Mr. CAFARO. In other words, stay by myself, don't stay with—
you're not supposed to be with the bosses anyway.
Senator ROTH. In other words, you think you were too close to
the bosses?
Mr. CAFARO. Too close, that's a fact.
Senator ROTH. But why would you want to be a member again?
You say that your life is in danger now, is that correct?
Mr. CAFARO. That's the way I chose it. What can I do? But it's
not good and it's not bad.
Senator ROTH. Let me ask you this. Who do you think, let's say 5
years from now, will be boss of your family?
Mr. CAFARO. If anything happens to Chin?
Senator ROTH. Yes.
Mr. CAFARO. I would say Bobby Manna.
Senator ROTH. Bobby who?
Mr. CAFARO. Bobby Manna.
Senator ROTH. Now, who is he?
Mr. CAFARO. He's the consigliere now.
Senator ROTH. After 36 years of friendship with Tony Salerno,
during which time I think you said that he was like a father to
you, why did you agree to cooperate with law enforcement?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, when I was in MCC for the 7 Vfe months, I was
having a lot of trouble with Tony over some moneys, and I owed
him, I think, $65,000 that I had used of his money, not knowing I
wasn't going to get bail when we got arrested.
If I would have got bail, there would have been no problem with
the money, and I had owed him $65,000. And when you get pinched
and you're in jail, no bail, nobody wants to loan you money any-
more; they look the other way.
So I had owed him $65,000 and we were arguing every day over
the money, but I paid him the money. And we had some slot ma-
chines going; I had some slot machines in the streets and I used to
give Tony a third.
So one day I told him he's got no more revenues coming from the
slot machine; whatever comes from there, I'm keeping. And he
says, no; he says, it's my business. I says, no, it's not your business,
it's mine; I created the business.
So he says to me, he says, well, he says, I'll pick up this cane and
I'll hit you with it. So I says to him, well, that s the biggest mistake
you'll make in your life if you ever pick up that cane to me. And
that's how I think I turned.
Senator ROTH. Do you have any family?
Mr. CAFARO. Do I have a family?
Senator ROTH. Personal family, yes. Are you married?
Senator NUNN. Senator Roth, I don't think he wants to
Senator ROTH. I think that's all the questions I have at this time,
Mr. Chairman.
Senator NUNN. Thank you, Senator Roth.
When you had that argument with Fat Tony and he threatened
to hit you with a cane, did that lead you to believe you might be on
his hit list?
Mr. CAFARO. No, no.
Senator NUNN. In other words, how do you distinguish between a
threat like that
Mr. CAFARO. Well, you know, when a relationship like me and
Tony for 30-something years—I thought it was a father and son re-
lationship, but when it came to the money, I said for money, is this
what—I would have killed him; I would have killed him in MCC.
Senator NUNN. You would have killed him if what?
Mr. CAFARO. If he would have picked up the cane.
Senator NUNN. Even though he'd been like a father to you?
Mr. CAFARO. That's right. The disrespect was there. There wasn't
respect anymore, not when you're going to argue for $65,000. I gave
that out in tips. I got to argue for $65,000? Let him use it, let him
use it all. Whatever I had, he could have had.
Senator NUNN. He had insulted you at that stage?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes. Well, from—we were there about three
months. He started asking, you know, about moneys and this and
that, whatever the situation was. So it was all over moneys.
Senator NUNN. Let me ask you two or three other questions.
You've mentioned a few unions this morning. Do you know other
unions that have not been mentioned this morning by you in your
testimony here that are controlled in New York City by LCN fami-
lies?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, there's the Kennedy Airport; that's controlled
by the Luchese mob. That's controlled by them, and as far as the
garment center, from what I know, the whole four families are in-
volved with the unions in the garment center. That's what I know
about that.
Senator NUNN. Is that done by territory? How do they decide
what family controls what?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, I don't know. I wouldn't say it's territories;
it's not the question of territories. If you got certain houses down
there—what I was made to understand by "houses" is these lofts
that make the clothes, dresses, coats, or whatever.
So if you got four or five houses in one building, that's yours, and
the union down there controls all that there. But I don't know too
much about the garment center, Senator, as far as the unions, you
know.
Senator NUNN. Mr. Cafaro, nearly 25 years ago an individual
named Joe Valachi testified before this Subcommittee about the ex-
istence of La Cosa Nostra in the United States. Did you ever meet
Mr. Valachi?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes, I knew Joe Cago, Valachi.
Senator NUNN. You call him Joe Cago?
Mr. CAFARO. Joe Cago, yes.
Senator NUNN. When did you meet him? Tell us about that.
Mr. CAFARO. Well, he was born and raised in Harlem. He was
born and raised in Harlem and he was an amico nostra in our
brugad. He was with Tony—at the time, Tom Rena. I don't know
who Tom Rena was, but he was a captain, and from there he was
with Tony Bender.
And I had a candy store, a club, on 115th Street between First
and Second Avenue, and he had come down one day with Joey
Pagano and I was friendly with Joey. How are you? How do you
feel? Fine. How are you?
One word to another, he says, you got gambling here? I says, yes,
I got blackjack and poker games in the back, you know. He says,
listen, he says, maybe I could send some guys down and play. So I
says, for what? He says, well, he says, we'll send five or six players
and we'll take a piece of the game.
Right away, he's looking to shake me down. So I didn't say noth-
ing. I says, no, I says, we don't need no players here. I got—I'm
doing all right the way I am. Well, he says, think about it. He says,
we'll send some players.
What I should have said to him then is mention Tony's name,
Fat Tony; listen, I'm with Fat Tony, because I knew what he was
leading up to. So I says, all right, I'll let you know tomorrow, and I
went and see Tony and I told him.
He said I close the club or the candy store, whatever you want to
call it; close it up, he says, and come and stay here. The next day, I
seen Joe Cago. I says, no; I'm closing the joint. And I went and
stayed with Tony. I opened up a club over there. And that was it,
the first time—not the first time I met Joe Cago. I seen him a few
times.
Senator NUNN. Did you have any other relationship with Vala-
chi?
Mr. CAFARO. No, no.
Senator NUNN. Were you a made member at the time he testi-
fied before this Subcommittee?
Mr. CAFARO. No. That was 25 years ago, Senator.
Senator NUNN. Do you recall that? Did you follow it?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes, yes. I was watching it on television.
Senator NUNN. What was the reaction in the family based on
that testimony? What was that
Mr. CAFARO. What was my reaction?
Senator NUNN. Your reaction and the reaction of others that you
knew. Did you hear them talk about that, Fat Tony or any of them,
later on?
Mr. CAFARO. No. I was in the bar. No, Tony wasn't there; a few
people. He's a rat. What's the reaction?
Senator NUNN. Yes.
We appreciate very much your being here, Mr. Cafaro. You have
given us a lot of interesting information this morning. We appreci-
ate your attorney being here and we appreciate your cooperation
before this Subcommittee.
Mr. CAFARO. Thank you, Senator.
Mr. EAMES. Thank you very much.
Senator NUNN. We have Exhibits 28 through 58 which, without
objection, will be made part of the record.
[See Exhibit Nos. 28-60 starting on p. 801.]
The Subcommittee will now adjourn. Thank you very much.
Mr. CAFARO. Thank you, Senator.
[Whereupon, at 11:39 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]