Fat Tony thought that the matter was a Philadelphia problem, and passed
the problem off to The Chin.' At the time, the acting boss was (un-
derboss) Funzi Tieri, with Lombardo, the real power behind the
scene, and Manna, the consigliere. A short time later 'Tony Ba-
nanas' and another guy were found murdered in the Bronx. In mid-
April, 1980, Salerno told me, 'It's is a good thing that I did not get
involved with this Tony Bananas thing and I sent him to see the
Chin. He had an appointment with the Chin, Baldy Dom (Domin-
ick) Cantarino picked him up and the other guy, at the Diamond
Exchange on 47th Street or 48th Street (New York, New York), and
they banged him out.' " Is that correct?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes, Senator.
Senator NUNN. Do you have anything to add to that? Are there
any deletions? Any changes? Anything in error on that?
Mr. CAFARO. Oh, I do not know exactly who carried out the hit,
who killed him. But it had to be the regime.
Senator NUNN. Right, yes. Was anyone ever convicted of the
murder of Tony Bananas?
Mr. CAFARO. No, not that I know of.
Senator NUNN. Mr. Cafaro, what was your age when you became
a made man, or straightened out, became a member of the LCN?
Mr. CAFARO. Say, 14 years ago, I was forty or forty-one years old.
Senator NUNN. Forty or forty-one years old?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes.
Senator NUNN. Why did you agree to become a member?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, when you were brought up in the neighbor-
hood, East Harlem in New York City, you always looked up to the
wiseguys, what I mean is amico nostra. And the kid from the
streets, and whatever. And to us it's honor, honorable.
Senator NUNN. Did you know who the wiseguys were when you
were growing up?
Mr. CAFARO. I knew some of them; not all of them. Of course
then it was more of a secrecy than it is now.
Senator NUNN. What do you gain from being a member?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, you gain honor, respect; that is what you gain.
Honor and respect.
Senator NUNN. Honor within the community?
Mr. CAFARO. The community and all over the city. Five boroughs,
I would say.
Senator NUNN. How can an organized group like that that car-
ries out all sorts of criminal activity including murder as you've de-
scribed here this morning be considered honorable?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, in our way of thinking and our way of life,
that is what it is to us. Being honorable, and respect. That is the
way we are brought up. That is the way you are born and raised in
these big Italian neighborhoods.
Senator NUNN. What about killing people? Is that considered
within the rules of honor?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, yes, as far as a lot of guys look to get called to
do killings; that's an honor to them. We do not kill innocent
people, Senator. In other words, for you to kill somebody, it has to
be a rat. He has to maybe fool around with somebody in your
family, another amico nostra's wife, or you fool around with junk,
or maybe your family got abused by someone.
Senator NUNN. In other words, when the rules are broken, you
feel that the person that breaks the rule deserves to be murdered?
Mr. CAFARO. Oh, when it comes to amico nostra's wife or junk,
there is no talking.
Senator NUNN. In other words, what about any other rules?
Those various
Mr. CAFARO. Well, as far as pornography and Government bonds
and the lesser things there, they sit down and talk; they warn you.
Senator NUNN. In other words, you are not supposed to fool with
junk, which is narcotics?
Mr. CAFARO. No junk, and amico nostra's wife.
Senator NUNN. No other member's wife.
Mr. CAFARO. Those are the two, there's no talking about it.
Senator NUNN. Those are the top two rules?
Mr. CAFARO. That is right.
Senator NUNN. You break those rules and you're a dead man?
Mr. CAFARO. There is no talking.
Senator NUNN. No question about it?
Mr. CAFARO. No question about it.
Senator NUNN. Now what about—you mentioned Government
bonds?
Mr. CAFARO. You cannot fool around with Government bonds,
pornography, there's a few others.
Senator NUNN. Why Government bonds? What's
Mr. CAFARO. They do not want to get involved too much with, I
guess with the Government, with the bonds and the securities
there or something like that.
Senator NUNN. They believe that would be more rigidly enforced
by Federal law enforcement?
Mr. CAFARO. I don't know. I could not answer that, Senator. I do
not know why Government bonds. But we were told not to
Senator NUNN. What about pornography?
Mr. CAFARO. Pornography, no pornography.
Senator NUNN. Why?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, because, it is like being a pimp.
Senator NUNN. In other words, that is not honorable?
Mr. CAFARO. No, not as far as we are concerned.
Senator NUNN. So someone fooling around with Government
bonds or pornography, is that also, in your words, no talk? In other
words, is that
Mr. CAFARO. No, that you can sit down and talk about.
Senator NUNN. You can talk about those two things?
Mr. CAFARO. Those two things you can sit down and
Senator NUNN. That is not capital punishment?
Mr. CAFARO. No, no.
Senator NUNN. But fooling around with someone's wife who is a
member of the organization
Mr. CAFARO. Or junk.
Senator NUNN [continuing]. Or junk, is?
Mr. CAFARO. That's—there's no talking then.
Senator NUNN. How do you explain so many people being con-
victed within the families of narcotics charges?
Mr. CAFARO. How do you explain it? How would I explain it?
Senator NUNN. Yes. In other words, you are saying that it was
against the rules for members to fool with narcotics. And yet time
after time it appears that they are
Mr. CAFARO. If I got pinched for junk, I would want to stay in
jail; I wouldn't want to come out on bail.
Senator NUNN. In other words, if your family found out that you
had been convicted of junk, you were a marked man?
Mr. CAFARO. That's right. Yes, Senator.
Senator NUNN. When you say you never kill innocent people,
now you mentioned a minute ago a fellow named, I believe it was
Nat Masselli
Mr. CAFARO. Yes.
Senator NUNN [continuing]. You said he was not a member o
the family?
Mr. CAFARO. No.
Senator NUNN. How do you define innocent?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, according to—he was supposed to have rattec
on this Philly about something; I don't know what.
Senator NUNN. So if you rat on someone, even if you are not
member of the family, you are fair game?
Mr. CAFARO. Fair game.
Senator NUNN. So the killings are not confined simply to family
members?
Mr. CAFARO. No. If you are ratting, you rat on me, you are fair
game. Like me, I am fair game.
Senator NUNN. You are fair game now?
Mr. CAFARO. Oh, yes, no question about it.
Senator NUNN. So if you were to get out on the streets now, you
think you'd be a marked man?
Mr. CAFARO. Think? I know.
Senator NUNN. You know you would be?
Mr. CAFARO. Sure.
Senator NUNN. Let me ask one other question before deferring to
Senator Roth, we've heard a lot about the International Longshore-
men's Association. We had a whole series of Federal investigations
on the waterfront back in, I believe it was, the late 1970's.
Do you know about those investigations, the so-called Unirac in
vestigations?
Mr. CAFARO. No.
Senator NUNN. You are not familiar with them?
Mr. CAFARO. No.
Senator NUNN. What about right now, as far as you know, is the
Genovese family still in control of the International Longshore-
men's Association in the ports of New York?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes.
Senator NUNN. You know that for a fact?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes.
Senator NUNN. Personal knowledge?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes.
Senator NUNN. Who controls it for the family? Who controls this
for the family?
Mr. CAFARO. Dougie Rago. He's amico nostra with our brugad.
He's a union official there. He's been there for years.
Senator NUNN. He's a union official but also a made man?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes.
Senator NUNN. Do you know that personally?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes.
Senator NUNN. How?
Mr. CAFARO. I was introduced to him. He was in my regime.
Senator NUNN. Part of your regime?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes.
Senator NUNN. You dealt with him?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes.
Senator NUNN. Go ahead and tell us about that; as much as you
know about it.
Mr. CAFARO. About what?
Senator NUNN. About Rago and his
Mr. CAFARO. Well, he's—like I say, he is a union official with the
ILA, and he's amico nostra with us. How long he is amico nostra, I
do not know. But I was introduced to him as amico nostra.
And he has been under the longshoremen—well, I call it the
longshoremen—with the ILA for years. And I had a conversation
one day with Sammy Santora, and I was not aware of how much
money was taken down at the ILA, via union officials.
And Sammy happened to mention to me one day that they were
taking down $400,000 to $500,000 a year. I says, you are kidding?
He says, no, that's what Bougie is pulling down, $400,000 to
$500,000 a year.
And that was the extent of it.
Senator NUNN [continuing]. You say $400,000 or $500,000 a year.
That money was coming to Doug Rago from
Mr. CAFARO. According to Sammy, what he told me, yes.
Senator NUNN [continuing]. From union activities?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes.
Senator NUNN. Was Rago keeping the money or sharing it with
the family?
Mr. CAFARO. I don't know what he was doing, Senator.
Senator NUNN. Was there ever a period of time when Rago
wanted to retire?
Mr. CAFARO. Not that I can recall. He was never around anyway.
He lives in Florida, I think.
Senator NUNN. Senator Roth.
Senator ROTH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
In a very real sense, an LCN is really a subgovernment, is it not?
Once you become a member of a family, you disregard local law,
but you are bound by the rules of this subgovernment; would that
be a correct interpretation?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes, Senator.
Senator ROTH. It is considered above and beyond what we ordi-
narily call the law—is that correct?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes.
Senator ROTH. Now, I would like to go back to this question of
the unions. You say that organized crime still controls the docks; is
that correct?
Mr. CAFARO. The what, Senator?
Senator ROTH. That the union still controls the Brooklyn docks?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, both, New York and Brooklyn.
Senator ROTH. New York and Brooklyn? The past investigations
and prosecutions have in no way diminished the LCN control of the
docks?
Mr. CAFARO. No, Senator.
Senator ROTH. What other unions does the Genovese family con-
trol?
Mr. CAFARO. Local 560 Teamsters.
Senator ROTH. Local 560? What union is that?
Mr. CAFARO. That's the Teamsters. 272, that's the garage union.
What other ones? The Javits Center in New York. The carpenters
and the expos. Bobby Rao's union, I do not know what local that is.
That is hotel and restaurant workers.
And there are all these other small unions, ambulance drivers.
Senator ROTH. How does the LCN get control of a union? How
does it maintain control?
Mr. CAFARO. You mean the strength? I would say the shop stew-
ard is the strength there. He controls the workers. And when you
send people down for jobs, you send them to the shop steward. Usu-
ally the amico nostra knows the shop steward. And you send him
down, working guys to go to work.
And it straightens up the position of the union delegate.
Senator ROTH. Now, the shop steward is the one who decides who
works; is that correct?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, he's—he hires and fires.
Senator ROTH. He hires and fires?
Mr. CAFARO. Right. He's the strength. When it comes to voting
time for the union official, he puts in who he wants. He tells his
men, vote for so-and-so. So that's where the strength.
Senator ROTH. How does the LCN control the shop stewards? Are
they members of the family?
Mr. CAFARO. No. They are just working guys, shop steward. But
they are controlled by the amico nostras, the wiseguys, whatever
you want to call them.
Senator ROTH. Well, I am not clear. How does a wiseguy control
the steward? By fear? By payoff? Or what?
Mr. CAFARO. No, none of that. It's his position. He got a job. Now
he knows what we say through the union delegate, with the shop
steward there, he's the strength to delegate as far as putting him
there.
Usually he goes to the union guy when there's a problem. When
we need a favor, we—and they know who the wiseguy is, involved,
the shop stewards.
Senator ROTH. When you say shop steward, does that mean all of
them are dominated by the LCN?
Mr. CAFARO. I don't say all of them, Senator. I do not say all of
them.
Senator ROTH. A majority?
Mr. CAFARO. A majority, yes. You had asked me where the
strength is, and I says, with the shop stewards.
Senator ROTH. Now, how does an LCN family use its control of a
union?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, you can use it in any way you want. You want
to pull a strike. Or maybe the union guy is not getting enough
money, the officials or whatever. Sweetheart contracts. However
you want to use the union, you can use it.
Senator ROTH. Can you use it for kickbacks?
Mr. CAFARO. Oh, sure.
Senator ROTH. I want to emphasize something the Chairman said
a few minutes ago, because it is absolutely right. By far and away
the majority of unions represent workers in an honorable way, so
we are talking about the exception and not the general rule.
Now, you stated LCN families have substantial influence in the
convention center's operation in New York City through their con-
trol of certain unions.
How do LCN families exercise influence through the convention
center's operation?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, you got the locals. There's the carpenters,
electricians, the platform where they pull up with the trucks to
unload, whatever. There are all different locals there.
And most, I would say at least half the locals in the city is run
by wiseguys. Carpenters, laborers, expos; so that is all wiseguys in-
volved.
Senator ROTH. Now, earlier in your testimony, you said, if I un-
derstood correctly, that something like 75 percent of construction
in New York City was controlled or influenced
Mr. CAFARO. By the wiseguys.
Senator ROTH [continuing]. By the LCN; is that correct?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes, yes.
Senator NUNN. May I ask a question on that, because I was not
clear a little while ago on that.
We were talking about the concrete industry now when we were
talking about that. Are you talking about overall construction, or
the concrete part of it?
Mr. CAFARO. I would say the concrete part of it. And I would say
50 percent of the overall is controlled by
Senator NUNN. But 75 percent of the concrete?
Mr. CAFARO. Concrete, yes.
Senator NUNN. And that is in New York City?
Mr. CAFARO. New York City.
Senator ROTH. And you say 50 percent of the construction?
Mr. CAFARO. I would say of the construction.
Senator ROTH. So that means that 50 percent of the buildings
constructed in New York are in one way or another
Mr. CAFARO. Affiliated with wiseguys, the contractors.
Senator ROTH. Are what by the wiseguys?
Mr. CAFARO. The contractors are affiliated with wiseguys.
Senator ROTH. Affiliated with wiseguys. Now, I am not exactly
clear how they use their influence in this area. You mentioned, for
example, that when the contracts are let, they know what the price
would be.
Mr. CAFARO. They know the bids.
Senator ROTH. They know the bids?
Mr. CAFARO. Right.
Senator ROTH. Now, how does that work out in a private con-
tract? Let us say I am a businessman and want to build a building.
So what do I do? I go and get a general contractor?
Mr. CAFARO. You want to build a building?
Senator ROTH. Yes.
Mr. CAFARO. Yes, you get a general—GC, they call them. And he
told you I guess how much it is going to cost you for the building to
go up with everything involved.
Senator ROTH. Is he the one that lets the contracts?
Mr. CAFARO. The GC? No. I am sure the owner.
Senator ROTH. It is the owner that does it.
Mr. CAFARO. He is the one. Whoever works for
Senator ROTH. Why would the owner cooperate?
Mr. CAFARO. It is not that he is cooperating. Whoever is giving
out the bids that works for the owner that wants to build the build-
ing, whoever works with him for the bids, receives the bids.
Senator ROTH. Would that be an employee of the owner?
Mr. CAFARO. I would say, yes, sure. And he would tell certain
contractors what the lowest bid is.
Senator ROTH. He would, as a general rule, he would tell
Mr. CAFARO. Well, I do not know about a general rule. But cer-
tain contractors he would tell.
Senator ROTH. And he is the one who lets them know what
the
Mr. CAFARO. What the lowest bid is.
Senator ROTH. So somebody else can come in and bid lower?
Mr. CAFARO. Right.
Senator ROTH. Are you saying then it takes the owners as well as
the general contractor to control these bids?
Mr. CAFARO. The owner does not control the bid. In a sense he
does, but the bid is given out to one of his employees. He gives out
the bids. The contractor, whatever. And when he gets into bids, he
knows what is the lowest bid.
So now as we say, a contractor with a wiseguy that he is friendly
with. And he tells him, this is our bid, the lowest bid we got. And
he will go in with a lower bid. Where you would not know the bid.
Senator NUNN. Let me ask a followup on that. In other words,
Senator Roth owns a lot and he wants to build a building on it in
New York City, and the bids come in, and they're rigged bids.
Senator ROTH. Are they rigged at that stage?
Senator NUNN. They are rigged, in other words, the people doing
the bidding are conspiring
Mr. CAFARO. It is already rigged.
Senator NUNN. All right, does the owner know about it in most
cases or some cases?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, that I do not know, Senator. That I do not
know. The bids are already rigged when they go in.
Senator ROTH. Is it rigged when the bids go in?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes, the Two-Percent Club knows all the jobs. So
now naturally four or five contractors start to put in bids, and
sometimes
Senator ROTH. So it is through the general contractors that the
LCN exerts its influence?
Mr. CAFARO. I would say yes. The legitimate guy has not got a
chance when them bids go in.
Senator ROTH. And you said approximately 50 percent of con-
struction in New York City is handled in this manner?
Mr. CAFARO. Sure, I would say.
Senator ROTH. Let me ask you this. You have mentioned a
number of unions, but what businesses are controlled or dominated
by the LCN? Could you name them?
Mr. CAFARO. Legitimate businesses?
Senator ROTH. Legitimate businesses.
Mr. CAFARO. Well, I would say garbage.
Senator ROTH. Garbage.
Mr. CAFARO. Private carting.
Senator ROTH. As a general rule, those that handle garbage are
controlled, influenced, by the LCN families?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes, I would say
Senator ROTH. Genovese family?
Mr. CAFARO. Genovese, all the families.
Senator ROTH. Do you know that from personal knowledge?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, sure.
Senator ROTH. What are the names of the companies?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, I know—I do not know the names of the com-
panies, but I know a few guys that are in the garbage business.
Senator ROTH. Who are they?
Mr. CAFARO. Matty "the Horse" lanello. He's a caporegime with
us. He's in it. Tommy Mallo from the Bronx, they are in it. But
mostly that is controlled by the mob.
Senator ROTH. What other legitimate businesses are con-
trolled
Mr. CAFARO. Have they got?
Senator ROTH. What?
Mr. CAFARO. Have the wiseguys got?
Senator ROTH. Yes.
Mr. CAFARO. Trucking business.
Senator ROTH. The trucking business?
Mr. CAFARO. I would say trucking business.
Senator ROTH. Can you name any specific businesses?
Mr. CAFARO. No. No.
Senator ROTH. What other businesses?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, I would say mainly garbage and trucking; that
is what I would say.
Senator ROTH. The LCN apparently has a prohibition against
trafficking in junk, or drugs. If so, why do we see so many mem-
bers of the LCN being prosecuted for drug trafficking?
Is there a change in the practices of the family? Are the younger
members of the LCN more inclined to be involved in drugs than
the older?
Mr. CAFARO. No, my opinion, I would not say that. I say the
money. The money is great. You can become rich overnight. That
is what I would say. Whether you are young, old, whatever; the
money.
Senator ROTH. Is drug trafficking in New York City controlled in
any large percentage by organized crime, despite its prohibition?
Mr. CAFARO. Senator, I cannot speak for other families. But I can
speak for my—well, it was my family. I can speak for the Genovese
family. No way in hell they would fool around with junk. There
might be sneakers; but as far as I know, none.
Senator ROTH. To your knowledge members of your family
Mr. CAFARO. No. There might be sneakers; there might be guys
that are.
Senator ROTH. What about the other families? What about the
Bonanno family?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, we were told at one time, years back, not to
get involved with the Bonanno mob, because first of all they're in
the junk business—most of them were—and there is no organiza-
tion there. There is no—1 week it is a boss; next week it is some-
body else.
So we could not get involved with them, mainly for the junk.
They are disorganized.
Senator ROTH. Do you know if and how the LCN launders
money?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, I guess through legitimate business people,
they would launder their money. I know I did one time with Roy
Cohn, a $200,000 gambling check, I laundered a check through him.
Senator ROTH. How did you do that?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, the fellow that owed me the money, he owed
me $200,000, he was a client of Roy Cohn's. So I said, make out a
check to Roy Cohn for $200,000, and I will get the money from him.
That is how I laundered it.
Senator ROTH. Did you ever get the money?
Mr. CAFARO. $50,000.
Senator ROTH. Out of how much?
Mr. CAFARO. Out of $200,000.
Senator ROTH. So he still owes you $150,000?
Mr. CAFARO. What, am I going to go on his grave and get it?
Senator ROTH. It is my understanding that some of the
have their own private armies aside from their families. Is that
true?
Mr. CAFARO. That was the days of Carlo Gambino. He had the
Cordeleones from Italy. He had a private mob which—no boss is
supposed to have a private mob. So when he died, Paul inherited
the Cordeleones from Sicily. And he had a private mob.
Senator ROTH. Was the private mob to protect himself from his
own family, if necessary?
Mr. CAFARO. I would say yes. For his own—that nobody knows, a
hidden mob, you called it. I would say yes.
Senator ROTH. Now, you talked about some fairly substantial
sums being taken by the LCN. Is there any effort on the part of the
LCN to take that money, launder it, and buy into legitimate busi-
nesses?
I am not talking now about the garbage or the trucking indus-
tries.
Mr. CAFARO. I would say yes. I would say they are going through
legitimate businesses.
Senator ROTH. In any significant way? How much would you say
your family has invested in legitimate businesses? Do you have anv
idea?
Mr. CAFARO. Oh, gee, I do not know, Senator. I really could not
tell you that. I could not answer that.
Senator ROTH. Do you know what any of these businesses would
be?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, like I says, mainly it was trucking and gar-
bage. But if it is a legitimate business, they look to go into legiti-
mate business. And anything that is flourishable, or they can make
money with, they would go into business. Bakery, anything, as long
as it is legitimate and they can make money with it. Any business.
There are no exceptions.
Senator ROTH. Mr. Cafaro, could you briefly explain the purpose
of the Two-Percent Club, how it worked and who the members
were?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, members as far as who? Contractors?
Senator ROTH. Yes.
Mr. CAFARO. Or wiseguys?
Senator ROTH. Both.
Mr. CAFARO. Well, the Two-Percent was created about, I do not
know, 5 or 6 years ago, when Vinnie DiNapoli had put it together.
This way it don't create a problem among contractors. Whoever
had contractors with them, they would not go in and put in a bid
to take a job away from you, they would underbid you.
So not to create a problem, to keep the peace, the circle was
formed, the Two-Percent circle with the contractors. So everybody
would get so many jobs, and keep everything going good.
And who represented—there were a load of contractors who were
in it. I cannot remember all the names offhand.
Senator ROTH. Can you name some of them?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, you had S&A Concrete; that is Nick Auletta.
You had G&G. XLO. Cedar Park. Century Maxim. Glenwood. Tech-
nical. North Berry. Metro Concrete. You had seven or eight differ-
ent contractors; maybe ten. And they would belong to the circle.
Senator ROTH. I am sorry, I could not hear. They would what?
Mr. CAFARO. And they would belong to the circle, which meant
the Two-Percent circle; that is what we called it, the circle. And
when the jobs come out, so many jobs, five or six jobs were coming
. out, that buildings were going up, they would allocate so many
jobs.
Over $5 million on the concrete, S&A would get it. Under $5 mil-
. lion, another company would get it. And the same thing with the
contractors. So many jobs, and so many were given out. And every-
body got a piece of the action.
Every family's representative there that was there got a job.
With the contractors. Or for the contractors.
Senator ROTH. Now, in what ways does a wiseguy make money
on a construction job?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, now, once he gets the job, the contractor,
automatically the 2 percent goes into the pot; 2 percent of the job,
say $20,000, goes into the pot from all the contractors, and that is
split up amongst the four families.
Senator ROTH. Split up between them?
Mr. CAFARO. It is split up between the families, yes.
: Senator ROTH. There have been a number of LCN prosecutions
>' recently. Do you think that the families in New York have been
damaged by these prosecutions, or do you think they will continue
o- to function effectively in the future?
Mr. CAFARO. That will go on forever, Senator.
s Senator ROTH. As far as you are concerned, there is no way
Mr. CAFARO. No.
Senator ROTH. Are you aware of the forfeiture of assets on the
part of your family to the Federal Government as a result of pros-
ecutions?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes, there is—I am aware of it.
Senator ROTH. Have there been any major forfeitures on the part
of your family?
Mr. CAFARO. Mine, personally?
Senator ROTH. Yes.
Mr. CAFARO. Well, they got some levies on my son's property,
and my daughter.
Senator ROTH. What about the Genovese family in general? Have
they been affected by forfeiture of their holdings?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, on this case that is going on now, on the Sa-
lerno case, there's forfeitures there, on Fat Tony, Vinnie DiNapoli.
Louie DiNapoli, Biff Halloran, Nick Auletta, there are forfeitures
there.
Senator ROTH. You do not see either the prosecutions or these
forfeitures in any way really harming the continuity of the Geno-
vese family?
Mr. CAFARO. None whatsoever.
Senator ROTH. If you were a law enforcement official, what
would you do or what do you think could be done to try to end
their influence?
Mr. CAFARO. Cannot end it. You can try to curb it. I do not think
you are going to end it. But what you can do is, try to curb it.
Senator ROTH. Do you think the younger people coming up are as
well disciplined and able to carry on in the same manner as the
more senior members?
Mr. CAFARO. They are not as disciplined as we are, the oldtimers.
They are not as disciplined. I would call them renegades.
Senator ROTH. Are they more violent—the LCN boss in Philadel-
phia said he was a gangster.
Mr. CAFARO. We're all gangsters, Senator.
Senator ROTH. They're all gangsters?
Mr. CAFARO. We're all gangsters.
Senator ROTH. But do you see more violence? Early on you said
that no innocent person was murdered by an LCN family. Do you
think that is going to continue to be true of the newer breed of
gangsters?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, I would say, yes, it is all up to the capore-
gimes. It is up to them to pull them in and make them understand
You got to school them. You got to teach them your way.
And when you got a restriction on them, you pull them in. You
make them understand. Over here, there is no—you cannot do
what you want. You do what we tell you.
And they will curb it. They will curb it. You get a few of them
that get a little out of line, but they will pull them in.
Senator ROTH. So as far as you are concerned, you see the LCN
continuing to be as potent in the future?
Mr. CAFARO. I would say, yes.
Senator ROTH. What about its relationship to Sicilian organizec
crime? Did you have any contact with Sicilians?
Mr. CAFARO. No. No, Senator.
Senator ROTH. Did your family?
Mr. CAFARO. They are not recognized by us.
Senator ROTH. Why is that?
Mr. CAFARO. Because first of all you do not know who they are.
They could come here and say, they're amico nostra from Sicily.
You could be being introduced to an agent or whoever. And they
are vicious.
Senator ROTH. What do you mean by vicious?
Mr. CAFARO. They got no respect for one another. And most of
them are in the junk business.
Senator ROTH. Now, you have reiterated several times that your
family is not in the junk business. Do you see that Changing in the
future? There are those who say it is a $100 billion a year business.
Do you not see your family becoming involved?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, no, like I always said, money makes a blind
man see. So I do not know.
Senator ROTH. Now, you stated that the penalty for individual
LCN members dealing with drugs is death.
Mr. CAFARO. Yes, Senator.
Senator ROTH. Now, you also said that there are some LCN mem-
bers who have been involved with drugs. Do you know of anyone
that has been given the death penalty because he violated the pro-
hibition against drugs?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, like I said, I do not know about other families,
Senator. I can speak for the Genovese family. I never heard of it
with our family.
Senator ROTH. Isn't that sort of an empty threat, then?
Mr. CAFARO. There is a story years ago that I heard about Tony
Bender. He was supposed to be fooling around with junk at one
time. That is the time with Joe Cago—what is his name, Valachi?
Senator NUNN. Joe Cago was Valachi.
Mr. CAFARO. Yes, that is the only story I know, that he is miss-
ing from then.
Senator ROTH. He is missing, and that was 25 years ago. But
there have been no recent cases?
Mr. CAFARO. Not that I know of.
Senator ROTH. My time is up, Mr. Chairman.
Senator NUNN. Thank you, Senator Roth.
Do you know, or have you heard anything, about Paul Castellano
or the Gambino family being involved in drug trade?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, from what I heard when I was in the streets,
as far as the rules, no fooling around with junk. I cannot speak for
another family.
But what I was made to understand was that Paul was taking
money from people that were around him in the junk business. He
would say, you cannot fool around with junk, but leave the shop-
ping bag, I will turn my head. In other words, leave the money.
That is all I know about that, Senator.
Senator NUNN. What is your opinion on why Paul Castellano
was murdered? Do you have a view on that?
Mr. CAFARO. A view? The greed. The greed. He would shake
down everybody. He would shake down his men. In my opinion, he
would shake down his mother, too. That was Paul. That is what I
say got him killed.
Senator NUNN. In other words, he didn't treat others
Mr. CAFARO. As long as Neil was alive.
Senator NUNN. Who was Neil?
Mr. CAFARO. Neil Dellacroce. As long as he was alive, I think
Paul would have still been alive today.
Senator NUNN. Why is that?
Mr. CAFARO. Because Neil was a guy that, he is the boss and that
is it. Paul was his boss, and that was the way it was going to be.
Senator NUNN. And Neil protected him?
Mr. CAFARO. He protected him, yes. That is what I was made to
understand.
Senator NUNN. Was he protecting him with physical means, or
was he protecting him because Neil was powerful himself and re-
spected him?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, Neil was powerful; he was the underboss. Neil
Dellacroce.
Senator NUNN. In other words, Neil's respect helped protect Paul
Castellano?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes.
Senator NUNN. How did Vincent Gigante become a power in the
Genovese family?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, I say his power come from his regime. He has
got a powerful regime. He has got maybe 30 or 40 members. That is
without counting—he is affiliated with them.
Senator NUNN. Let me shift back to the contractor business.
Why would a contractor want to pay money to a member of orga-
nized crime?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, he gets jobs. And then don't forget, with the
bid rigging. I can go in a bid for, let us say, $4 million. Maybe the
job is only worth $3V2 million. So naturally the next contractor
who is going to put in $4% million, who is going to put in $5 mil-
lion. So there is money being made.
And then they got the clearance with the unions. Do not have
union problems as far as laborers, or the Teamsters.
Senator NUNN. In other words, two reasons. One is, the contrac-
tor makes more money
Mr. CAFARO. Sure he does.
Senator NUNN [continuing]. By bid rigging. The second reason is
because the wiseguys can basically
Mr. CAFARO. They control the unions.
Senator NUNN [continuing]. Control the unions?
Mr. CAFARO. The laborers, truck drivers, carpenters, brick layers.
Senator NUNN. What is the incentive for the union leadership to
be involved in that kind of operation? What do they get out of it?
Mr. CAFARO. The delegates? They wheel and deal for themselves.
They go to the contractor or whoever, and he gets x amount of dol-
lars. Money goes right down the line.
Senator NUNN. Other than the money, does the contractor give
the wiseguy anything else in return for the job?
Mr. CAFARO. He gives him the money, whatever he gives him. He
gets maybe $50,000, maybe $100,000.
Senator NUNN. What about subcontractors?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, now there's some contractors is usually
around wiseguys, so you get the plumber, he is looking for the job.
So you tell him, all right, you go see so-and-so.
Senator NUNN. So the wiseguy helps control the subcontractor?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes, yes.
Senator NUNN. In other words they help the contractor get the
job?
Mr. CAFARO. Then there is a subcontractor—if you got, let us say
a plumber with you, or an electrician, or a carpenter, or the dry
walls, you go to the contractor, you tell him, listen, give him this
job, whatever. And that is how you get him.
Senator NUNN. Do the wiseguys get money back from the sub-
contractor by helping them get the job?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes. Yes.
Senator NUNN. So basically they are controlling everything from
one end to the other.
Mr. CAFARO. Top to bottom.
Senator NUNN. Top to bottom?
Mr. CAFARO. Sure.
Senator NUNN. Did you ever accept a finder's fee for helping a
contractor obtain a job?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes, Senator.
Senator NUNN. Tell us about that.
Mr. CAFARO. Well, S&A Concrete was looking for a job on, I do
not know if it was 35th Street or 36th Street, First Avenue, in New
York City. And a friend of mine, his contractor had the job.
So I went and see him, and tell him, listen, if you could, give
S&A the concrete work and do me a favor. So he says, yeah, why
not. So I got the job; he got the concrete work; and I got $240,000.
Senator NUNN. Now, who did you split that with?
Mr. CAFARO. Nobody.
Senator NUNN. That was yours?
Mr. CAFARO. Yeah.
Senator NUNN. Let me ask you this. You said in some good years
you made $1 million, $2 million dollars a year, and this $240,000;
you were handling an awfully lot of money, right?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes, Senator.
Senator NUNN. Did you save any of it? Did you put it up?
Mr. CAFARO. Nope.
Senator NUNN. What happened to it?
Mr. CAFARO. You want to tell them, Eleanore? I spent it, Sena-
tor. Just gave it away. I never got it all at once. I never had a big
lump of money. As I was making it, I was spending it: women, bar-
tenders, waiters, hotels. Just spending the money.
Senator NUNN. Spending, $400,000, $500,000, $600,000, $700,000 a
year?
Mr. CAFARO. Sure.
Senator NUNN. A million dollars a year in some years?
Mr. CAFARO. If I had it to spend, I'd spend $3 million.
Senator NUNN. How do you spend $3 million?
Mr. CAFARO. That's easy.
Senator NUNN. Do you not get tired going out every night of the
week?
Mr. CAFARO. No, sir.
Senator NUNN. Every night?
Mr. CAFARO. Three, four nights a week.
Senator NUNN. Did you loan money to people?
Mr. CAFARO. I loaned a lot of money to people. Never got it back.
Senator NUNN. Do you have a list? Did you keep up with it?
Mr. CAFARO. I had the list. I used to ask now and then. But they
say they're broke; they ain't got it; be a little patient, I will pay,
and this and that. And I never got it back. So when this happened
to me, how am I going to get it back?
Senator NUNN. That is gone now, I take it.
Mr. CAFARO. That is gone. That is all water under the bridge.
Senator NUNN. Did you operate strictly on a cash basis? When
you spent money, was it strictly cash?
Mr. CAFARO. When I went out spending? Yes, strictly cash.
Senator NUNN. Do you keep large amounts of cash on you?
Mr. CAFARO. I used to go out with $5,000 to $10,000 in my pocket.
Senator NUNN. Where did you keep the other cash that you had?
Mr. CAFARO. Leave it at somebody's house, somebody hold it for
me; $40,000, $50,000, $100,000, whatever I had.
Senator NUNN. You did not operate through checking accounts,
or anything of that nature?
Mr. CAFARO. No, no. I wish I could have.
Senator NUNN. Strictly cash?
Mr. CAFARO. Strictly cash.
Senator NUNN. What is your understanding of a commission
meeting? Could you give us your definition of the word "commis-
sion" and "meeting"?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, from what I was made to understand, a com-
mission meeting was made—the commission was formed in the late
1930s, after the wars. The wars, what I mean, the wars with the
wiseguys. At the time, it was with the Sicilians. They were killing
all the Sicilians in the 1920s and 1930s, when Luciano was in
power.
So after they, I guess, killed whatever they had to kill, and who-
ever went back to Sicily, Luciano, they had killed, what's his
name? Joe "the Boss" Masseria in New York? Joe the Boss. And he
was the boss of bosses at the time.
So when Luciano became in power, he says, it would not be fair
for me to be boss of bosses, because you got a family, he's got a
family, he's got a family. Why should I tell you what to do? We will
form a commission, and we will straighten out our grievances.
And the commission was only formed for the purpose of stopping
wars. For peace.
Senator NUNN. Do we have a boss of bosses now?
Mr. CAFARO. No.
Senator NUNN. So the commission is the hierarchy?
Mr. CAFARO. Right. All the bosses sit at the commission.
Senator NUNN. They are on the same level then?
Mr. CAFARO. Right. And that is why the commission was formed
in the late 1930s.
Senator NUNN. Did you ever take Fat Tony Salerno to commis-
sion meetings?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes.