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Re: Sonny Franzese would be a better boss thanPersico?
[Re: chin_gigante]
#995417
08/12/20 09:00 AM
08/12/20 09:00 AM
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 9,419
NYMafia
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 9,419
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According to Scarpa, Mineo became underboss in 1964 at the same time that Colombo became the boss. When the captains were told to poll their soldiers on what they thought, they were asked specifically about having Colombo as boss and Mineo as the underboss. They were both approved and installed at the same time. Mineo was then consistently referred to as the underboss throughout the rest of Colombo's reign and was still the underboss at the time that Colombo was shot.
I don't know where the misinformation about Franzese being the underboss in the 1960s comes from. I know Michael Franzese has said it but I don't know whether he was the original source for that or not. Scarpa was consistent in his description of Mineo as the underboss and he was in a very strong position to know, considering that he (Scarpa) reported direct to Colombo up until he was incapacitated.
Could be something like the Bonanno family in the 1960s when some sources incorrectly identified Galante as underboss when we know from Joe Bonanno, Bill Bonanno and other contemporary sources within the family in the 1960s that Frank Garofalo and then John Morales were the underbosses with no one else in between them. Chin, the "underboss" position was established as the "buffer" and runner so to speak for the boss. He interacts with all skippers and other tops members. In both their own family and the other 4 crews. Mineo was a "sleeper" nearly his whole life. Many guys didn't even know who he was. He only came to light after Colombo got shot. Underbosses are usually VERY well known and out there on the street. IMO - that factor alone debunks any thought that Mineo was the underboss of a very high profile family like the Colombos. As far as Scarpa goes. Even though he did provide much good intel about the workings of the family, Scarpa was a bullshitter and liar to the hilt. Who said things (or not) according to what he felt benefitted him. Again Mineo IMO was always just a soldato. Another perfect example was Tommy DiBella. He was ONLY a soldier for many decades. Another sleeper little known to the public. DiBella only became a household word after he was elevated to the acting boss roll during turmoil in the 1970s. Then LE found out about him and he was well publicized. If Mineo had been in that position for years he would have been exposed long before he was. In fact I actually believe Mineo went into the "consigliere" senior-advisor role because he was so low key. Perfect spot for him. He was elderly if I remember correctly. The UB role is usually an active spot. No way to know 100%. and for sure the Colombo's played a lot of musical chairs in that era, but thats my take on it.
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Re: Sonny Franzese would be a better boss thanPersico?
[Re: furio_from_naples]
#995418
08/12/20 09:24 AM
08/12/20 09:24 AM
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,861
Louiebynochi
Banned
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Banned
Underboss
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,861
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I think if he doesn’t go to prison he would be underboss under Persico..I don’t beleive he was the underboss under Colombo ,Sal Mineo was the underboss but sonny was one of the top skippers Sal mineo? The actor? SONNY aas the underboss from early 1960s until his arrest in 1967. I don’t know who the actor is ,I just know who the underboss was in the 60s and it wasn’t sonny ..
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Re: Sonny Franzese would be a better boss thanPersico?
[Re: furio_from_naples]
#995423
08/12/20 10:15 AM
08/12/20 10:15 AM
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Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 349
chin_gigante
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 349
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I'm going to lay out my evidence because I have to 100% disagree with the stance that Mineo wasn't underboss during the 1960s. I also strongly disagree that the underboss position needs to be an active buffer. That is typically how it functions but it is not necessarily always true (e.g., the Bonanno family functioned without an underboss from 1979 to 1984; Pasquale Martirano was terminally ill and could do little in terms of active involvement when he was made the underboss in Philadelphia in 1990; Ignazio Denaro was Philly underboss in the 60s but was less active than capo Phil Testa who functioned as a de facto second-in-command in the family; Salvatore Vitale had responsibilities gradually stripped away from him as underboss). The evidence that Mineo was the underboss is very compelling and it's the same evidence that has Franzese as a capo during that period:
30 March 1964: Scarpa spoke with James Rubertone (acting capo for Ambrose Magliocco) and was told that Colombo will be named the new boss and Mineo the underboss The capos had been asked to survey their soldiers to find out their opinions on Colombo and Mineo Scarpa told him that he thought Colombo and Mineo were a good selection
05 April 1964: A ceremony was held to to install Colombo as the boss and Mineo as the underboss Capos in the family attended the ceremony as well representatives from seven other families (including Detroit)
11 June 1964: A meeting was held to introduce the capos in the family to the members who would be reporting direct to Colombo Scarpa attended the meeting as a member of Colombo's regime and identified Mineo as the underboss and Franzese as a capo
05 January 1965: It was reported that Carmine Persico was reported to capo Mineo, while serving as underboss, was also responsible for a crew that included Anthony Abbatemarco, Anthony Ricciardi, Joe Yacovelli, Allie Giannattasio and James Cordella Persico was given control of this crew due to Mineo's poor health
31 August 1967: Scarpa reported that Franzese, still a capo, was lying very low and that Mimi Scialo was serving as his acting capo (Franzese also did not attend Colombo's son's wedding in December 1967 due to law enforcement heat)
04 December 1968: Scarpa attended a party held for capos and members of Colombo's regime Mineo attended and was once again identified as the underboss
07 July 1971: Scarpa advised that a meeting was recently held in the wake of Colombo's shooting Mineo, Joe Yacovelli, Carmine Persico, Joe Iannaci, Nick Bianco, Rocco Miraglia, Vinny Aloi, Jiggs Forlano, Duke Santoro, Mimi Scialo and possibly one or two others attended Mineo was once again identified as the underboss at the time of this meeting Mineo was asked to become the acting boss but turned it down, citing his age and health Yacovelli then became the acting boss
Also, prior to Colombo's shooting, Scarpa identified Mineo as the underboss and that he had attended IACRL rallies
In October 1967, an FBI report laid out the hierarchy of the Colombo family as follows:
Joseph Colombo (Boss) Charles Mineo (Underboss) Benedetto D'Alessandro (Consigliere) Vincent Aloi (Capo) Simone Andolino (Capo) Harry Fontana (Capo) Nicholas Forlano (Capo) John Franzese (Capo) Frank Fusco (Capo) John Misuraca (Capo) Salvatore Musacchio (Capo) John Oddo (Capo) Carmine Persico (Capo) Nicoline Sorrentino (Capo)
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Re: Sonny Franzese would be a better boss thanPersico?
[Re: furio_from_naples]
#995426
08/12/20 11:11 AM
08/12/20 11:11 AM
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 9,419
NYMafia
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 9,419
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I know it is an unconventional thought, and not typically done. But do you think it's in the realm of possibilities that Sonny WAS the underboss, and yet maintained a full "Regime" under him? And that Little Joey Brancato served as his "acting capo" for years? and Mimi and others also served in that slot as needed?
It has been very well documented by the VERY SAME informers and FBI you quote that Joe Colombo (although boss), kept his very "OWN REGIME" of over 15 good fellows and many, many top associates at the very same time he was the family leader?? Bosses don't typically do that!
Of course that could be (and IMO WAS the case with Sonny as well). Although Sonny changed hats several times, he was smart enough, and respected enough, to be allowed to keep his personal "crew" on the side. This was done twofold. For his personal earning power. as well as the "Strength" he provided Colombo against any possible insurrections in the family to Colombo's power. That is why BOTH Colombo and Franzese maintained their own personal "armies",
And one more thing while we are at it. And this is FACT, not conjecture on my part.
It has been well documented by both local rackets squads and the FBI that Sonny ALWAYS maintained another "personal crew" "on the side" of his top personal men who did his bidding. NOT necessarily "made", but as good if not better than made guys who had allegiance to Sonny and Sonny alone.
So much so that good fellows from all the families knew this, Persico knew this, Colombo knew this, etc etc. He was extra feared because of it. Franzese was one of the most unconventional mafioso who ever lived.
His personal "guard" so to speak and devout followers that numbered in the dozens. Franzese ran what amounted to a "Family within a Family"....fact! I'm talking in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s era. They were "recognized and afforded the respect of good fellows" yet, were NOT beholden to the hierarchy per se.
Preposterous you say? Never could happen you say?.... think again! If you can imagine it, it could happen. and it did in his case!
He was SOOO respected that he was never challenged for it.
PS: if you haven't already do so. Please visit my website and tap into my extensive personal biography on John (Sonny) Franzese under the Colombo Family link. Read the whole thing. But especially the list of his personal regime and "associates" crew. Massive!!
Last edited by NYMafia; 08/12/20 11:13 AM.
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Re: Sonny Franzese would be a better boss thanPersico?
[Re: furio_from_naples]
#995432
08/12/20 11:56 AM
08/12/20 11:56 AM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 814
Zavattoni
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 814
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This subject is interesting the more that I look into it.
I always thought Sonny Franzese was Underboss under Joe Colombo.
But let me state; Only Micheal Franzese mentions this in his interviews Where are the other sources??
I’ve also read that Carmine Persico was “Underboss†under Tom DiBella but Persico had the most say. Then you read that there was no Underboss in that period. I don’t even know.
Last edited by Zavattoni; 08/12/20 11:58 AM.
“I called your f—— house five times yesterday, now, if you’re going to disregard my m—– f—— phone calls, I’ll blow you and that f —— house up… This is not a f—— game. My time is valuable. If I ever hear anybody else calls you and you respond within five days, I’ll f—— kill you.†~ John Gotti.
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Re: Sonny Franzese would be a better boss thanPersico?
[Re: furio_from_naples]
#995433
08/12/20 12:31 PM
08/12/20 12:31 PM
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Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 349
chin_gigante
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 349
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I do believe it is possible that the underboss could maintain a regime and I can certainly think of a few cases where that was true (e.g., Marco Reginelli and Philip Leonetti from the Philadelphia family, possibly also acting Philadelphia underboss Frank Martines). In fact, I also believe that it did happen with the Colombo family in the 1960s but, as the evidence suggests, with Mineo, not Franzese.
The fact that Franzese had an acting capo does not prove that he was the underboss (as there are several other explanations, such as law enforcement heat, to explain why acting capos are promoted), nor does it disprove that Mineo was the underboss. Mineo was repeatedly documented to be the underboss and served in the role while simultaneously having his own regime (until Persico was given control of it). Franzese having a level of respect and influence greater than most captains does not make him the underboss.
I have read your biography of Franzese and was disappointed to find no actual evidence or sources to support your claims that Franzese was underboss in the 1960s or that he was promoted to capo in the 1950s (whereas Scarpa clearly states that Franzese was promoted by to capo by Joseph Magliocco in 1962). If you could provide me with any links to documents, files or reports to substantiate your claims I would happily take that into account and weigh it against the, as I see it, compelling and consistent identification of Charles Mineo as Colombo's underboss.
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Re: Sonny Franzese would be a better boss thanPersico?
[Re: furio_from_naples]
#995437
08/12/20 01:53 PM
08/12/20 01:53 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 814
Zavattoni
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 814
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@chin-gigante
It’s possible for a underboss to have a crew. You’re right. I believe Frank Scalise had a crew in Jersey. All heavy hitters. He was under Albert Anastasia.
Louis Manna was Consigliere under Chin. Think he had control of 4-5 crews in Jersey.
Last edited by Zavattoni; 08/12/20 01:54 PM.
“I called your f—— house five times yesterday, now, if you’re going to disregard my m—– f—— phone calls, I’ll blow you and that f —— house up… This is not a f—— game. My time is valuable. If I ever hear anybody else calls you and you respond within five days, I’ll f—— kill you.†~ John Gotti.
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Re: Sonny Franzese would be a better boss thanPersico?
[Re: Lou_Para]
#995453
08/12/20 05:51 PM
08/12/20 05:51 PM
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,861
Louiebynochi
Banned
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Banned
Underboss
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,861
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@chin-gigante
It’s possible for a underboss to have a crew. You’re right. I believe Frank Scalise had a crew in Jersey. All heavy hitters. He was under Albert Anastasia.
Louis Manna was Consigliere under Chin. Think he had control of 4-5 crews in Jersey. Neil Dellacroce is another example.He served as the Gambino's #2 under Carlo,and then Paul, and was basically given Carte Blanche to run his own operations. Actually.he had one of the sweetest deals in the Mafia world. He served minimal jail time, earned a ton of money from his crews,and had as much power as many Bosses.He did what he wanted,and kicked up his share to keep the status quo. He was smart enough to stay where he was and avoid the unwanted attention and increased Law Enforcement pressure that the top spot would bring.Just like Carlo,he died wealthy.free,and in bed. Dellacroce didn’t even become the underboss until the late 1960s. Even in the 60s he was passed over and Castellano was made acting boss for a few months ... dellacroce was first made a capo of guys like Anthony Ruggiano during the 1950s and early 1960s Click the link below for the fbi reports on this from the 1960s But Neil and Joe gallo had long runs and made a ton of money but nothing compared to Castellano ...I believe Joe Gallo and Neil we’re Allies much more than Paul and Joe [img] https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=113324&search=Franzese#relPageId=73&tab=page[/img]
Last edited by Louiebynochi; 08/12/20 06:08 PM.
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