An exchange with Evita in another thread brings up something that has long puzzled me:

As I’ve argued many times: Michael had to have Pentangeli and Roth killed. Both were threats to him; and, as a Don, he had to show enemies and potential enemies that no one escapes his vengeance, no matter how well they’re protected.

Using Tom to convince Pentangeli to kill himself was a brilliant move because his death could not be linked directly to Michael. But, having Rocco whack Roth in the Miami airport, surrounded by FBI agents, news reporters and cameramen, strikes me as being insanely risky for Michael. Rocco had been identified as a Corleone Family caporegime in a chart displayed at the recent Senate hearing. Rocco, killed after the shooting, would be immediately linked to Michael. And, even in the extraordinarily unlikely event that Rocco might have (temporarily) escaped, he would have been identified from still pictures and newsreels taken of Roth’s arrest, as well as from eyewitness descriptions. Everything would lead directly to Michael. I’d think that’d be the last thing Michael would want after his own narrow escape from having his “legitimate” front destroyed at the Senate hearing.

What do you think?

"Difficult--not impossible." following on similar thread
I doubt anyone would be game enough to take on Michael Corleone again after the dismal failure of the senate hearing

“I never know no reporter I don't know nothing about that. I have my own newspaper people on the payroll”

I think this shows how much of a threat Michael thought Roth was. The airport was really the only chance Michael had to get to Roth, so he was left with no choice but to take it. And he wouldn't have trusted a mere buttonman with such an important task. It had to be one of his top men. I agree that he did sacrifice Rocco, again proving that Michael felt he needed to eliminate Roth at any cost.

TB, you're right that Rocco - dead or alive - would have quickly been linked to Michael.

Rocco getting killed was the best thing for Michael, under the circumstances. In fact, I think Michael was counting on it. I don't think he would have expected Rocco, with only one good leg, to be able to outrun the feds and their bullets.

The feds would put immense pressure on a captured Rocco to implicate Michael in any number of crimes. And how loyal would Rocco have been after Michael sent him on a suicide mission? Michael barely survived the Senate hearings; he probably wouldn't have escaped a second time.

A dead Rocco would tell no tales, so there would be no legal repercussions for Michael. No more Senate hearings. No damage to his legitimate front.

Excellent analysis, LW.

It's true that Rocco, with a bum leg, would never be able to escape, and that a dead Rocco would tell no tales. But, while Michael could not have been charged directly in Roth's murder, the FBI would have descended on Michael because of Rocco's connection to him, and the sensational murder of Roth would have played huge in the media. Media coverage would have resurfaced all the charges against Michael raised in the Senate hearings, and have damaged Michael's "legitimate" front once again.

My two cents worth!

Michael's "legitimate" front was the Elephant in the room
I reckon, nobody would be willing to resurface all the charges against Michael raised in the dismally failed Senate hearings

No doubt Roth was still a threat but not an immediate one He needed to be eliminated but not at any cost and the airport was not the only chance

Tom visited Pentangeli who was living in an army barracks with the FBI guys so they could get to Roth later

I reckon, Michael would not sacrifice his men especially his top men He selects his top men so that he can do the job successfully and get away with it

I still reckon killing Roth need not have been a suicide mission

What is this about Rocco, with only one good leg, bum leg
If he had an escape plan, he need not have to outrun the feds and their bullets His running is what got him killed

But losing someone as big as Rocco would hurt Michael IMHO.

Also, he could also play dumb and say Rocco went out on his own and pulled this stunt. Interesting either way

I too reckon killing Roth need not have been a suicide mission at all

Michael did say “That's where I want it met” to Tom's “That [Roth's] plane goes to Miami”

Whilst “airport was not the only chance” Michael certainly wanted Roth killed publicly at the airport for whatever reason – showcasing Michael Corleone's power, no one escapes the Corleone vengeance, no one gets a pass

Roth was not really well protected being out in the open, the airport was full of people

It seems Michael selects his men as best suited for the jobs in accordance with their aptitude, proficiency, prowess, skill set etc. and the importance of the tasks
It doesn't always have to be someone like Neri! whoever Michael thinks is sufficient for the said jobs

• Baptism murders

1. Neri for Barzini
2. Clemenza for Strachi and Carlo
3. Rocco for Tattaglia
4. Cicci for Cuneo
5. ? for Greene

Michael would not sacrifice any of his men especially his top men whom Michael selects and counts on them to carry out their jobs successfully and get away with it
"losing someone as big as Rocco would hurt Michael" indeed

The Don might give the killing order to the Capo but it is up to the Capo to work out how to kill the target and get away with it

If Rocco had an escape plan, he need not have to run at all!

I doubt Rocco if captured, would sing to implicate Michael irrespective his loyalty to Michael is unconditional like Tom's or not, knowing if Rocco does, his days will be numbered

Rocco knows it would be just a matter of time before Michael's long-reaching tentacles of death comes calling wherever he is, how well he is protected
Rocco knows very well no one gets a pass especially turncoats

The novel notes that Rocco was injured during Army service in WWII. You see him galumphing up Clemenza's driveway in a deleted scene from GF. You see him galumphing with his bad leg immediately after the Tahoe shooting.

If he had an escape plan? What would it have been, after the airport shooting?

I think it's all about killing Fredo. Michael can't kill Fredo while allowing Roth to survive and die in his own bed. Roth may never be seen in in the open again, so he has to be killed at the airport. Only Neri and Rocco would be candidates for that sensitive of an assignment.

I will have to rewatch that scene carefully but irrelevant such an insignificant tiny part hardly noticeable galumphing as seen in the movie, a long stretch that Michael was counting on his only one good leg, bum leg would hinder and get him killed

I reiterate Michael would not sacrifice his men

I will just repost Lana's escape plans which I reckon is sensible and could have worked

If Rocco had an escape plan, he need not have to run at all!

Did Rocco Kill The Tahoe Shooters?
Extract:
Michal's choices
Extract:

Well, this is getting very interesting, which is what I hoped.

Roth was a danger to Michael because of his incredible resourcefulness. Just look how, despite being in a coma from a stroke and the bodyguard's effort to smother him, he still arranged to get out of Havana alive and recover--and then spring that brilliant perjury trap on Michael. He had to die.

Suppose Michael hadn't ordered that Roth be killed at the airport. He might not have had another shot at him:

Roth would have been taken into custody by the FBI agents. He could easily have made bail, but he knew he'd be a dead man on the streets. So, I reckon , he might have made a deal with the FBI to give them everything he knew about Michael and the Corleone Family (and he had decades of experience and knowledge to trade) in return for lifetime protection and lenient treatment. At his age, it'd be an attractive proposition. The FBI, humiliated by Pentangeli's recantation at the Senate hearing, would have jumped at another chance to pull Michael off of his "legitimate" pedestal, and send him to prison. Roth would have been a priceless resource for them. And, if Roth were properly protected, Michael probably wouldn't have been able to kill him before Roth ratted him out. So, it may have been that the airport scenario was the only way to silence Roth.

As for Michael not sacrificing his men: Recall that he told Tom in the boathouse: "If history has taught us anything, it's that you can kill anybody." That went for his own people, too. No one was indispensable, especially for ruthless, cold-hearted Michael.

Michael had nothing to lose by killing Roth in such a public fashion.

1) It signified to the other Families that no one,regardless of their power or position, is beyond Michael's vengeance.

2) No way, no how, does Rocco escape alive. No direct testimony from the shooter to implicate Michael.

3) Let's say Rocco does survive. He knows as well as anyone what happens to potential witnesses against Mike. I say he keeps his mouth shut,takes a deal brokered by some (unseen but friendly) Government/Law enforcement contacts,does his (less than life) time and retires to a comfortable existence.

4) Lastly,let's say Rocco is captured alive,flipped by the Feds and decides to testify against Mike.All you have is (at best) the uncorroborated testimony of an accomplice, which is admissible in exactly zero Criminal trials. No one in the room when Mike gave the order is going to talk. Given the whole Cicci/Pentangeli debacle, no prosecutor in his right mind is going to publicly "harass" Michael again,especially when he would be playing with an even weaker hand this time around. Q; "Mr. Corleone, isn't it true that Mr Lampone is a high ranking member of your Crime Family" ? A: No it is not" Q: "Did you order Mr. Lampone to murder Hyman Roth"? A: That is a complete and utter falsehood" "Thank you Mr. Corleone. The Prosecution rests".

At least that's my 2 cents worth.

My take, for what it is worth!

Roth was undoubtedly a danger to Michael from day one and had to die.

It has to be the Cuban Military who arranged to get Roth out of Havana alive after saving Roth from being murdered by Michael's bodyguard in the hospital room

I believe, the incredibly resourceful Roth would have already had in place
Plan A – Tahoe bedroom shooting
Plan B – Michael's murder in Havana
Plan C – Senate hearing / brilliant perjury trap

Fair enough “Suppose Michael hadn't ordered that Roth be killed at the airport. He might not have had another shot at him” and Michael certainly wanted Roth killed publicly at the airport

What did Roth really know about Michael? the recipient of the Navy Cross, who has never been arrested or indicted for any crime whatsoever No proof linking Michael to any criminal conspiracy

Roth probably knew plenty about Vito and the Corleone family but nothing concrete that would “pull Michael off of his "legitimate" pedestal, and send him to prison”

Roth can tell about Roth and Michael's 'legal' gambling partnership! but precious nothing for the supposedly "priceless resource" to rat Michael out

I believe, the clever Roth would know this and would not incriminate himself knowing Roth cannot 'touch' Michael, the exact reason Roth won't sing There is No deal!
Roth would have continued playing the part and maintained he is a retired investor on a pension

I doubt anyone - FBI, Questadt - would be game enough to take on Michael Corleone again after the dismal failure of the senate hearing especially on the desperate 'ramblings' of an old man in custody trying to pitch an "attractive proposition" to rat Michael out "in return for lifetime protection and lenient treatment"

Whilst “No one was indispensable” Michael would not sacrifice any of his men [especially his top men like Neri or Rocco] whom Michael selects and counts on them to carry out their jobs successfully and get away with it

Every member is pivotal link in the chain
If lost as unavoidable collateral casualty, so be it but not intentionally "expendable" nor would Michael want to lose / sacrifice his men

Michael does not come across to me as someone who would cut off his nose to spite his face

Roth really knows precious nothing that would be detrimental to Michael personally
He had nothing concrete even if he wanted to sing

No doubt the humiliated FBI would jump at another chance but not on, not worth a nickel! 'ramblings' of Roth who would be desperately trying to save his own skin

You need to understand US criminal and regulatory laws:

At minimum Roth knew about Michael's hidden, undeclared ownership and control of three Nevada casinos, and his attempt to gain control of another by moving out Klingman--Roth (through Johnny Ola), invited Michael to move out Klingman. Recall Michael's testimony at the Senate hearing:

QUESTADT

Is it true that you have a controlling interest in three of the major hotels in Las Vegas.

MICHAEL

No it is not true -- I own stock in some of the hotels there -- but very little.

Michael perjured himself with that testimony. Roth, as a government witness against Michael, could have resurrected the perjury rap against Michael--a potential five year prison sentence for each instance of perjury.

What was more, having hidden interests in casinos is a major felony under Federal law and a violation of Nevada gaming regulations. Even if the government could not convict Michael because only one witness (Roth) testified against him, the Nevada Gaming Commission would have yanked his licenses because of his undeclared ownerships--Gaming Commission rules don't require a corroborating witness in order to put someone in their "Black Book". Michael's "legitimate" standing would have suffered a fatal blow even if he never went to prison. That would have greatly pleased Roth--and the FBI.

Also keep in mind that Roth knew Michael ordered the murder of Moe Green. Willy Cici, who flipped when Pentangeli flipped and was still alive and in government custody, pulled the trigger. The government might have been able to put Roth and Cici together to build a murder case against Michael. Even trying to do so would have further damaged Michael.

Here's the thing about all this speculation over possible repercussions to Michael: virtually all of the things that could have happened to Michael, did happen.

Witnesses, under oath, accused him of ordering killings in a high-profile Senate hearing.

He clearly perjured himself in the same hearing.

A known lieutenant of his was gunned down by law enforcement after publicly murdering an adversary of Michael's.

He's the son of a known Mob boss who was, at least indirectly, involved in all sorts of malfeasance. Anyone who was paying attention knew that Michael was no longer the squeaky-clean war hero.

We've discussed possible threats to Michael but, given the above, were they really threats?

It seems clear that law enforcement was not exactly eager to go up against Michael again. Why do I think that? Because they didn't.

Similarly, for all the talk about the "black book," I don't believe Michael was ever in jeopardy of being blackballed (except maybe for a felony conviction). Why? Again, because no action was taken despite all the crime surrounding him.

By this point, Michael's only concern was legal liability, not appearing legitimate.

Well put Woltz nicely validated

What lieutenant? What adversary? Who are all these 'manufactured' people?
The way the senate hearing crumbled, the FBI Corleone family chart is not worth the paper it was printed on!

Michael was untouchable indeed

Now that you mention it, Michael seems to have given up trying to “appearing legitimate”
Michael did say to Geary at their meeting during Anthony's party, after Geary's derogatory comments about Michael and his family “Senator, we're both part of the same hypocrisy”

Michael never gave up on trying to appear "legitimate." He was obsessed with it. Look at all the money he gave to the Church so he could be invested as a Knight of St. Sebastian, his party, and the press corps he invited to witness it--all while serving, as Vincent put it, as "the Pope" of the Commission.

The movies are for International audience

I reckon, non-Americans, even all Americans don't know and would not be expected to understand the US criminal and regulatory laws Their technicalities not intended, in fictional stories

Same applies for other movies in other countries and their local laws

A lot of people knew a lot of precious nothing about Michael and all amounted to nothing concrete

Michael's hidden interests, undeclared ownership and control in casinos was deader than dead Nobody could find any trace, no trail whatsoever connecting Michael
Whatever Roth comes up with would be nothing new and already unproven as were all the murders, nefarious power, crime empire, gambling control and what not

Pentangeli was the only one who may have come close but it was all lies Everything

Cicci pulled the trigger on Cuneo Who did on Moe Green
Even if he was alive, highly unlikely, he had already stated that he never got direct orders from Michael

TB, at least part of Michael's church contribution motivation was his effort to try and redeem himself for his murder of Fredo. His invitation to the press though is puzzling. As you state, it may have been due to his continuing effort to appear legitimate. Maybe he was fooling himself. Maybe by then he was trying to convince himself of his legitimacy with the trappings of legitimacy.

By the way, since I teach some law, I appreciate your post about the complexities of American due process and the relative ignorance of so many people about that process and its complexities. Roth's knowledge of Michael's hidden links could have set the forensic accountants on a quest to expose those links.

No doubt about that.

Michael fooling himself about "legitimacy" was his undoing throughout the Trilogy. A serious essay could be written about how frustrated Michael was about "legitimacy" and his failure to achieve it.


Thanks, Oli. I see it as part of FFC's fanatical attention to detail, including legal details that we can appreciate.

I think Rocco understood that it was a suicide mission and that he was expected to die in the ensuing gun battle. It was the only way to accomplish the task. Im sure Mike promised to take care of his family or whatever financially. But it was really no choice. He couldnt refuse and he knew that he would die either way

My two cents worth!

No doubt we can appreciate FFC's fanatical attention to detail and the opinions, knowledge of the Forum members

Godfather movies are not documentaries not factual
They are for entertainment not a lesson in the American due process and its complexities

I still reckon the audience would not be expected to understand, be knowledgeable about the legal details It is not a law class!

By the way, every country has their own local due process and its complexities American or foreign technicalities not intended, in fictional stories

Anyhow, moving forward,
Whatever Roth's knowledge of Michael's hidden links would be nothing new
So why didn't it already set the forensic accountants on a quest to expose those links in the dismally failed Senate hearings? Michael was untouchable indeed

FFC’s fanatical attention to detail provides the fuel that keeps this thread going. His attention to legal and regulatory matters enriches our understanding of Michael Corleone’s dilemmas in GFII. I’m taking the time to flesh them out for you because I think you’ll enjoy the movie more if you’re better informed:

The Fifth Amendment to the US Constitution protects defendants against “self-incrimination”: you cannot be compelled to be sworn in and answer questions against you aimed by prosecutors in a trial. However, a Congressional hearing like the one Michael was subpoenaed to appear before isn’t a trial. You cannot avoid being sworn in. Your Fifth Amendment “privilege” extended only to refusing to answer specific questions. And, the only permissible form of response is, “I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that my answer might tend to incriminate me.”

Now, suppose, when Michael was asked if he planned the murder of the heads of the Five Families in 1950 [sic], he replied, “I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that my answer might tend to incriminate me.” He could not be prosecuted for perjury because he didn’t lie under oath. But everyone on the planet would know that he was hiding something big—what “might incriminate” him? It would fatally undermine his “legitimate” pose.

He also didn’t know that Pentangeli was alive and was being secretly prepared to testify against him. I posted a thread a while back whose point was that, even if Pentangeli had testified as planned, Michael might not have been convicted of perjury: A conviction would have required a corroborating witness (someone who’d testify that he’d heard or seen the same incriminating things Pentangeli cited), or incriminating evidence (like a court-approved wiretap). Neither was likely in Michael’s case. BUT, having Pentangeli testify, in public and under oath, about all the murders and other crimes Michael ordered him to do, would have indelibly created a detailed image and account of Michael as a Mafia Don. It would have destroyed his reputation.

It also could have cost him his casino holdings:

In 1958, after years of evidence that organized crime was running gambling in Nevada, the State Legislature took control over the gaming industry out of the Tax Commission, where oversight was lax, and put it into a new Gaming Commission. They gave the new commission two big teeth: the power to license “key employees” of casino hotels (like the casino manager and the credit manager); and the “Black Book”—a list of people who could be barred from even entering a casino, much less owning or operating one, because of past convictions or simply having unsavory associates or reputations (BTW: that’s the rule Nicky and Ace ran afoul of in the movie, “Casino”). Since those were commission regulation, rather than laws, the Gaming Commission didn’t have to put you on trial or otherwise prove beyond reasonable doubt that you were a criminal—they could place you in the Black Book simply because they didn’t like you or the image you had. Frank Sinatra lost his license and his ownership interest in the Cal-Nevada Lodge simply because he let Chicago Outfit boss Sam Giancana stay overnight at the hotel. If Michael had “taken the Fifth” at the Senate hearing, and/or Pentangeli had testified against him, it would have been sufficient for the Gaming Commission to kick him out of the casino business with no further ado. Guess who would have picked up his casino holdings?

That’s why Michael could never have “taken the Fifth” at that hearing—and, knowing that, why Roth was so brilliant in setting up that sting with Questadt and the Senate subcommittee.

Excellent analysis TB. As I pointed out in one of my posts, due process is hugely complex, evolving, and subject to interpretation. That's why we have to have (despite misgivings to the contrary) lawyers.

I think it was especially cogent of you to point out the difference between law and regulation.

Thank you Turnbull for your time and effort

As I already posted No doubt we can appreciate FFC's fanatical attention to detail and the opinions, knowledge of the Forum members

If I didn't think I could be informed better, I wouldn't be on this Forum!
I enjoy posting, reading other members posts, their knowledge, our responses which no doubt enriches our understanding of Michael Corleone’s dilemmas in GFII and the movies in general

I understand why Michael didn't, couldn't, in fact never could take the Fifth Amendment to the US Constitution

I understand why he was rattled when he realised that Pentangeli was alive and was being secretly prepared to testify against him

I understand his very real possibility of going to prison, which threat he brilliantly countered by bringing Pentangeli's brother over

I am always glad of any fuel that keeps any thread going, keeping the board active which no doubt enriches our enjoyment nearly half a century on, why we are still conversing

My point is, it is not hard, not rocket science! for the audience to work out that Michael had a narrow escape without having to understand the US constitution, US criminal and regulatory laws, be knowledgeable about the American due process and its complexities, legal details, the difference between law and regulation

Every country has their own local due process and its complexities It is not unique

It is nice to know, fun to flesh out but not critical for the audience to figure out he escaped by the skin of his teeth

Michael's hidden interests, links, undeclared ownership and control in casinos was deader than dead Nobody could find any trace, no trail whatsoever connecting Michael

How could the Gaming Commission kick him out of the casino business on his non-existent casino holdings
There were no licenses in his name for the Nevada Gaming Commission to yank and put him in their "Black Book"

As regards his "legitimate" standing suffering a fatal blow, fatally undermining his “legitimate” pose, Pentangeli indelibly creating a detailed image and account of Michael as a Mafia Don, destroying his reputation, even in GF III reporters were still asking
"What about Mr. Corleone’s connections with Las Vegas gambling? What about his involvements with the underworld?"

You put it beautifully Turnbull,
No doubt Michael fooling himself about "legitimacy" was his undoing throughout the Trilogy. A serious essay could be written about how frustrated Michael was about "legitimacy" and his failure to achieve it

You are right Woltz and Turnbull

Extracts:
My misunderstanding of Woltz's post

The priority at the time of senate hearing was legal liability not appearing legitimate - did not mean given up trying to “appearing legitimate”

What could have made Godfather 3 better?
Whilst Michael was serving as "the Pope" of the Commission, Michael seemed to have managed to achieve at least his 'pretend'! "legitimacy" to some degree

The above not dissimilar to “legitimacy” in Nevada but Pentangeli's crime operation in New York was still called Corleone

The Godfather Wiki - Immobiliare
Michael Corleone bought a large block of [Immobiliare] stock during the 1970s, eventually becoming the company's largest single shareholder in 1979
[separate to trying to buy the Vatican's stake for controlling interest]

what was Roth's crime for his airport arrest

I reckon it was tax evasion tax fraud

The real-life Roth--Meyer Lansky--faced four charges when he returned to the US: a drug charge (possession of an ulcer medication without a prescription); failure to answer a Federal subpoena while he was in Israel; money laundering, and secret ownership interest in a casino. He beat all four charges.