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May 27th, 2012
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Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: The Last Woltz] #968146
03/30/19 12:14 AM
03/30/19 12:14 AM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 119
Australia
Lana Offline
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Lana  Offline
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Australia
Originally Posted by The Last Woltz
Originally Posted by Turnbull
"Why didn't we spend time like this before?"


Not to get too deep into the weeds, but I've always felt the wording and syntax of this sentence is fascinating.

Normally, if you're sorry you haven't had a great time together in the past, you'd say something like, "Why haven't we ever spent time like this?" That wording and tense implies regret for time lost but also hope for the future.

But Fredo uses "before" without "ever" and speaks in the past tense, showing that something has happened that will prevent him from having a fraternal relationship with Michael moving forward.

For instance, if you go to dinner with a platonic friend and realize you have feelings for each other, you'd say, "What haven't we ever done this?" But if you did it right after her wedding, you'd say, "Why didn't we do this before?"

Anyway, that is a great "tell" from Fredo that he knows that he has crossed a line that cannot be uncrossed, and also a clue that Michael didn't seem to pick up on at the time, but may have by the time the New Year's Eve party rolled around.
Interesting post Woltz

Fredo could have still tried
1. having a fraternal relationship with Michael moving forward
2. to uncross the line he has crossed

Fredo could have helped Michael with what he knew for the senate hearing at least even after the first session
Surely, Fredo would have known that the senate hearing was coming but chose to keep Michael in the dark

Michael didn't seem to pick up on Fredo's great "tell" at the time
Did any of us board members? We were all in denial!
Originally Posted by Turnbull
Three great John Cazale moments in GFII when he and Michael are having their tete-a-tete in the outdoor cafe in Havana:
1. Fredo says, "Sometimes I think I should have settled down, married a girl like Kay, been more like..." He pauses. We wait for him to say, "like you." Instead he says, "like Pop."
“married a girl like Kay” oh! boy!!
Sure thing I think we did! wait for him to say, "like you”

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Frankie_Five_Angels] #968203
03/31/19 12:25 AM
03/31/19 12:25 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 14,488
Texas
O
olivant Offline
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Texas
Geary sits down in Michael's office and tells him that he thought they would talk alone. Notice that the end table next to Geary has an ashtray and a lamp. When the camera next switches back to Geary, there's a glass of water on the end table. The camera switches back to Michael and then back to Geary as Neri walks past him. The glass of water is gone. When we next see Geary, he's taking his pills and the water glass is back.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Capri] #968441
04/02/19 08:29 PM
04/02/19 08:29 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 48
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Evita Offline
Wiseguy
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Wiseguy
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Originally Posted by Capri
Godfather II
1. was Michael running the nation's top Mafia Family
2. did Michael blamed Tom for the Corleone's misfortunes
3. was there any divorce/child custody hearing [Kay didn't seem to have any visitation rights even]
4. did Kay get the kids
5. wasn't Corleone family direction not to be like the Roman Empire it once was

To my knowledge,
1. Yes
2. No I don't believe Michael blamed Tom for the Corleone's misfortunes
3. No not from what was seen in the movie
4. No not from what was seen in the movie Kay was banished I reckon without the kids
5. Yes from Roman empire to biggest legitimate gambling mogul

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Frankie_Five_Angels] #970858
05/06/19 12:03 AM
05/06/19 12:03 AM
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Australia
Lana Offline
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Lana  Offline
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My take, for what it is worth!

Desert Inn scene –

Rocco exits the room, joins two men [who were they?] and the three of them are conversing

Neri does not seem to even look in the direction of Rocco and the two men

1. Neri seems to hesitate as if unsure whether Michael meant just Rocco only, surely not both of them!
2. Then takes a couple of steps towards the coffee table, grabs a cigarette and exits
3. Neri does seem to stand just outside the sliding door, looking inside the room, how is it that Tom is still inside whilst Neri is outside!
4. Neri goes into the corner, squats on the floor with his back to the room and is smoking
5. Later we see Neri squatting, facing the room, I bet trying to lip read!

Whilst I too “cannot even imagine! anyone “demonstrating their dissatisfaction” to Michael about anything he said or did” Neri seems to but undoubtedly only because Neri knows Michael cannot see him!

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Lana] #970973
05/06/19 10:57 PM
05/06/19 10:57 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 18,080
AZ
Turnbull Offline
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As I saw it, Neri hesitated before leaving the room because he turned back briefly to grab a smoke from the box on the table. Tom was in the room because Michael wanted to talk to him privately about Fredo's whereabouts. I guess it was too "personal' at that point to share with Rocco and Neri.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Lana] #971355
05/11/19 08:48 PM
05/11/19 08:48 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 48
E
Evita Offline
Wiseguy
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Wiseguy
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Posts: 48
Good one! Lana cheeky, humorous post

The men could be the same ones who were standing up when Michael,Tom and Neri were walking past them to the Inn

Michael's head was down, his nefarious world, Fredo's betrayal weighing him down
No doubt more coming with senate hearing, Kay's abortion

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Evita] #971372
05/12/19 01:03 PM
05/12/19 01:03 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 18,080
AZ
Turnbull Offline
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There was an interesting anomaly in that scene:

Michael was frantic to get Fredo on the plane with him that would take them out of Cuba. But, in the Vegas scene, after Tom tells Michael that he thinks Fredo's in NY, Michael simply tells Tom to get word to Fredo that he knew Roth misled him, etc. Since Michael was so anxious to get Fredo on the plane, probably less than 48 hours earlier, why didn't he order Tom to bring Fredo to him immediately? He waited until after his Senate appearance to tell Tom that he wanted to talk to Fredo.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Turnbull] #971445
05/13/19 11:49 AM
05/13/19 11:49 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 711
Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz Offline
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The Last Woltz  Offline
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Originally Posted by Turnbull
There was an interesting anomaly in that scene:

Michael was frantic to get Fredo on the plane with him that would take them out of Cuba. But, in the Vegas scene, after Tom tells Michael that he thinks Fredo's in NY, Michael simply tells Tom to get word to Fredo that he knew Roth misled him, etc. Since Michael was so anxious to get Fredo on the plane, probably less than 48 hours earlier, why didn't he order Tom to bring Fredo to him immediately? He waited until after his Senate appearance to tell Tom that he wanted to talk to Fredo.


Michael's head must have been spinning when he yelled at Fredo to get into the car. He was clearly devastated to realize that Fredo was the traitor. He doesn't know whether Roth is alive or dead. He is literally in the middle of a revolution without so much as a bodyguard. He surely hadn't had time to process and analyze Fredo's betrayal.

His reaction was probably a combination of thinking it would be wise to keep Fredo close and genuine concern for Fredo's safety.

By the time he gets to Nevada, he's had time to assess the situation. He knows Fredo is safe and that he poses no immediate threat to the Family. So he can afford to wait for Fredo to come back to him.


"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: The Last Woltz] #971515
05/14/19 04:30 PM
05/14/19 04:30 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 18,080
AZ
Turnbull Offline
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That seems logical, LW. And, by that time, he knew that Roth and Ola put Fredo up to his betrayal, so there was no more urgency. i


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Turnbull] #971528
05/15/19 07:36 AM
05/15/19 07:36 AM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 38
Cuba
C
Capri Offline
Wiseguy
Capri  Offline
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Wiseguy
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Cuba
brother trying to get brother out safely
Later Don't be afraid Fredo everything is alright not knowing then how deep his treachery was, wanting to be Don

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: The Last Woltz] #971628
05/16/19 11:25 PM
05/16/19 11:25 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 18,080
AZ
Turnbull Offline
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AZ
After Roth chides Michael with his Moe Greene speech in Havana and goes in for a nap, notice the semi-smirking, condescending look Johnny Ola gives Michael, as if to say, "You think you're hot stuff, kid, but you can't touch the old man."


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Turnbull] #971667
05/18/19 12:07 AM
05/18/19 12:07 AM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 119
Australia
Lana Offline
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Lana  Offline
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Posts: 119
Australia
Roth's speech about Moe Greene to stoic Michael - "semi-smirking, condescending" Ola is looking smug that Michael has no idea Pentangeli is alive and that Michael will be dead shortly

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Frankie_Five_Angels] #973301
06/17/19 10:44 PM
06/17/19 10:44 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 14,488
Texas
O
olivant Offline
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Posts: 14,488
Texas
When Sonny confronts the FBI agent during the wedding reception, the agent does not display his badge.

I also question the agents recording license plates numbers since they appear to be trespassing. The cars were parked on the compound; that area does not appear to be right of way or property accessible by the public unless invited.

I wish Kly was still around so that he could comment on such a legal question.

In II, after the gunfire at the compound, the guards close what appears to be the main entrance gates of the compound. Why were those gates open after dark, especially late at night?


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: olivant] #973304
06/18/19 07:27 AM
06/18/19 07:27 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,881
New York
SC Offline
Consigliere
SC  Offline
Consigliere

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Posts: 22,881
New York
Originally Posted by olivant
When Sonny confronts the FBI agent during the wedding reception, the agent does not display his badge.

I also question the agents recording license plates numbers since they appear to be trespassing. The cars were parked on the compound; that area does not appear to be right of way or property accessible by the public unless invited.



oli, I think you're forgetting that this was 1945 and not today. This was not a time when Tom Hagen would have made a legal argument about the FBI overstepping their legal limits.


.
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: SC] #973341
06/18/19 06:48 PM
06/18/19 06:48 PM
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Posts: 676
L
Lou_Para Offline
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Underboss
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Posts: 676
The agent did show his ID to Sonny who then spits on the ground. As Sonny walks away.he says to Tom "FBI don't respect nothin". As far as being on private property.I agree that it probably was illegal . Had they been across the street it would have been another story,but as SC points out, it was a different time.

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: olivant] #973368
06/19/19 03:48 AM
06/19/19 03:48 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 18,080
AZ
Turnbull Offline
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Posts: 18,080
AZ
Originally Posted by olivant
When Sonny confronts the FBI agent during the wedding reception, the agent does not display his badge.

As Lou said, the agent did show his ID, and Sonny spat on it.

Quote
I also question the agents recording license plates numbers since they appear to be trespassing. The cars were parked on the compound; that area does not appear to be right of way or property accessible by the public unless invited.

As SC suggested, law enforcement tactics weren't as restricted then as now. I think in 1945, law enforcement was empowered to "inspect" cars that were "suspected of being used in commission of a crime." A stretch, to be sure, in this case. But, the FBI guys knew the Corleones wouldn't file a lawsuit or make any kind of stink--it would embarrass their guests.

Quote
In II, after the gunfire at the compound, the guards close what appears to be the main entrance gates of the compound. Why were those gates open after dark, especially late at night?

It looked like Michael had hundreds, if not thousands, of guests. Maybe all of them hadn't left yet?

And anyway, Oli, as you and I have agreed in many instances: directoral license.

Last edited by Turnbull; 06/19/19 03:51 AM.

Ntra la porta tua lu sangu sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Frankie_Five_Angels] #973389
06/19/19 08:59 AM
06/19/19 08:59 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,112
No. Virginia
mustachepete Offline
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mustachepete  Offline
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No. Virginia
In the novel, Vito had advised his intimates to come to the wedding in a borrowed car.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: mustachepete] #973406
06/19/19 04:05 PM
06/19/19 04:05 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 18,080
AZ
Turnbull Offline
Turnbull  Offline

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Posts: 18,080
AZ
Originally Posted by mustachepete
In the novel, Vito had advised his intimates to come to the wedding in a borrowed car.

He also advised some of the judges not to attend at all. If I remember correctly: he was somewhat pleased by Sonny's show of temper at the FBI guys because he thought it would make them believe that he hadn't anticipated their surveilance.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Frankie_Five_Angels] #973689
06/23/19 04:15 PM
06/23/19 04:15 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 14,488
Texas
O
olivant Offline
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O

Joined: Feb 2003
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Texas
In II, at the end of the film, Michael sits alone on his estate contemplating his past and his future. Look behind him (near the top of the screen) and you will see several people walk by in line from left to right. They are dressed in black and you can only see them from about the knee down.

Who are they and what are they doing there?


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Frankie_Five_Angels] #973703
06/23/19 09:54 PM
06/23/19 09:54 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,112
No. Virginia
mustachepete Offline
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mustachepete  Offline
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No. Virginia
Never noticed that before. It seems Bergmanesque.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Frankie_Five_Angels] #974122
06/30/19 12:14 AM
06/30/19 12:14 AM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 119
Australia
Lana Offline
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Lana  Offline
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Posts: 119
Australia
Originally Posted by olivant
In II, after the gunfire at the compound, the guards close what appears to be the main entrance gates of the compound. Why were those gates open after dark, especially late at night?
I am not trying to reignite! one of the most debatable, flogging a dead horse topics!!
Perhaps Coppola was trying to tell the audience who killed the assassins! or “directoral license” indeed

Did Rocco Kill The Tahoe Shooters?
Extract:
Originally Posted by Lana
I believe there was a third [!] assassin who took care of the first two assassins who were probably told to wait by Fredo's bedroom for assistance but were always going to be killed to leave no loose ends

There was a car at the gates trying to drive off or something just after the gun fire and Michael's guards were shouting Stop! Stop! then Halt! Also the sentry was slack leaving the gates open

It seems everyone was pretty much slack after the big party
Rocco failed to secure the compound

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: mustachepete] #974247
07/02/19 12:56 PM
07/02/19 12:56 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 14,488
Texas
O
olivant Offline
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Originally Posted by mustachepete
Never noticed that before. It seems Bergmanesque.


Pete, when you get the chance, watch that scene again and tell me if it seems purposeful.

Last edited by olivant; 07/02/19 02:48 PM.

"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Frankie_Five_Angels] #975151
07/17/19 06:10 AM
07/17/19 06:10 AM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 38
Cuba
C
Capri Offline
Wiseguy
Capri  Offline
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Wiseguy
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Posts: 38
Cuba
why was Rocco at the hotel He played no part in the senate hearing

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Capri] #975233
07/17/19 09:51 PM
07/17/19 09:51 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 18,080
AZ
Turnbull Offline
Turnbull  Offline

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 18,080
AZ
Do you mean the Hotel Washington? He was probably bodyguarding Michael, Kay and the children.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Turnbull] #975251
07/18/19 06:00 AM
07/18/19 06:00 AM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 38
Cuba
C
Capri Offline
Wiseguy
Capri  Offline
C
Wiseguy
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 38
Cuba
should have been Neri bodyguarding not Rocco He was presenting papers for Michael to sign, witnessing so personal children are outside we're going

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Capri] #975449
07/20/19 12:15 AM
07/20/19 12:15 AM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 119
Australia
Lana Offline
Made Member
Lana  Offline
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Posts: 119
Australia
The way Kay sprung such a personal and private “children are outside we're going” on Michael in front of 'hired help' whether they be Neri or Rocco, was in extreme poor taste

Michael at least had the decency and sensitivity to send Neri and Rocco out of the Desert Inn room before discussing Fredo with Tom

Now that you mention it, it is strange that Michael was doing paper work with Rocco as such dealings would normally be with only Tom

Rocco just popped up! at Hotel Washington “I'll be in my room Mike”

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Capri] #975481
07/20/19 04:17 PM
07/20/19 04:17 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 18,080
AZ
Turnbull Offline
Turnbull  Offline

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Posts: 18,080
AZ
Rocco was the security guy in II. You see him scanning the crowd at Anthony's party. He's the "first responder" after the Tahoe shooting. Neri seemed like he was closer to the business side: in a deleted scene, he's the one who forces Klingman out of his hotel, and he leads the discussion near the end about Roth's prospects for avoiding arrest.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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