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Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Revis_Island] #965137
03/02/19 11:02 PM
03/02/19 11:02 PM
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Posts: 18,062
AZ
Turnbull Offline
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Originally Posted by Revis_Island
Tom also clearly does not like the direction that the corleone family is taking at the end of 2. He remarks to Pentangeli that “it was” in reply to his comment saying “Corleone family was like the Roman Empire”. I have never read the novel at all, but does it say Tom’s reaction upon finding out about Fredo’s murder?

The novel ends where GF ends--with Connie watching as Clemenza kisses Michael's hand and says, "Don Corleone."
You would definitely benefit from reading the novel.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Turnbull] #965149
03/03/19 12:45 AM
03/03/19 12:45 AM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 3,519
Where ever needed.
DuesPaid Offline
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Originally Posted by Turnbull
Originally Posted by Revis_Island
Tom also clearly does not like the direction that the corleone family is taking at the end of 2. He remarks to Pentangeli that “it was” in reply to his comment saying “Corleone family was like the Roman Empire”. I have never read the novel at all, but does it say Tom’s reaction upon finding out about Fredo’s murder?

The novel ends where GF ends--with Connie watching as Clemenza kisses Michael's hand and says, "Don Corleone."
You would definitely benefit from reading the novel.



I started it and put it down after reading several chapters.

I need to pick it back up.
Want to finish it, it seamed to have started to loose me with the Sonny parts and girlfriend.


Be Loyal, Be Loving, Be Quiet.
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: DuesPaid] #965150
03/03/19 01:12 AM
03/03/19 01:12 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 14,481
Texas
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olivant Offline
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Originally Posted by DuesPaid


I started it and put it down after reading several chapters.

I need to pick it back up.
Want to finish it, it seamed to have started to loose me with the Sonny parts and girlfriend.



Read it! Read it! Read it!

By the way, it's Kay, not Connie and it ends with Kay saying a prayer for the Michael's soul. It's portrayed in one of the broadcasts, but I haven't seen it in many years. I wish they'd make it part of any GF broadcast.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: olivant] #965169
03/03/19 01:29 PM
03/03/19 01:29 PM
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Posts: 18,062
AZ
Turnbull Offline
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Originally Posted by olivant
it ends with Kay saying a prayer for the Michael's soul. It's portrayed in one of the broadcasts, but I haven't seen it in many years. I wish they'd make it part of any GF broadcast.

Oli, I think what you're referring to is a VHS "Special Edition" (one of a zillion "Special Editions") that had additional material at the beginning of each movie. The beginning of GF had Puzo telling an interesting story: He had heard that Danny Thomas(!) was planning to buy Paramount so he could star in GF. "I was disturbed by that" (understatement of the decade). So, said Puzo, he contacted Brando about playing Vito and Brando said he'd be interested. At the beginning of the GFII VHS in this edition, we see a scene of Kay lighting candles in church and wearing a mantilla. And, you're right: the novel ends with Kay taking vows in the Catholic Church and going with Mama daily to say prayers for their husbands' souls.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Frankie_Five_Angels] #965170
03/03/19 01:44 PM
03/03/19 01:44 PM
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Posts: 4,175
Green Grove Retirement Communi...
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The movie is better than the book. Once Coppola edited out the 500 or so pages of Puzo's hard-on for Sinatra, there was quite a good story here.


"...the successful annihilation of organized crime's subculture in America would rock the 'legitimate' world's foundation, which would ultimately force fundamental social changes and redistributions of wealth and power in this country. Meyer Lansky's dream was to bond the two worlds together so that one could not survive without the other." - Dan E. Moldea
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: OakAsFan] #965172
03/03/19 02:26 PM
03/03/19 02:26 PM
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Posts: 18,062
AZ
Turnbull Offline
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I like the novel a lot. But, I agree about Johnny Fontaine. His character was useful in the beginning in order to set up a display of Vito's power and his willingness to go the distance for his godson. After that, Fontaine was there just to let Puzo show off his Hollywood BS. Puzo spent a lot of time in Hollywood, and he couldn't resist showing it off through Fontaine and Nino. His Hollywood BS just about ruined "The Last Don."


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Turnbull] #965174
03/03/19 02:42 PM
03/03/19 02:42 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 14,481
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olivant Offline
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Originally Posted by Turnbull
I like the novel a lot. But, I agree about Johnny Fontaine. His character was useful in the beginning in order to set up a display of Vito's power and his willingness to go the distance for his godson. After that, Fontaine was there just to let Puzo show off his Hollywood BS. Puzo spent a lot of time in Hollywood, and he couldn't resist showing it off through Fontaine and Nino. His Hollywood BS just about ruined "The Last Don."


TB, did Puzo ever explain why he included so much of the Fontaine/Lucy thread in his novel?


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: olivant] #965210
03/03/19 11:17 PM
03/03/19 11:17 PM
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Turnbull Offline
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Oli, I've never seen a direct quote from Puzo on Johnny Fontaine/Frank Sinatra. But, it's a good guess that since he borrowed and adapted real-life Mafia characters and events to the novel, Puzo was repeating old stories about how feared NJ caporegime Willie Moretti coerced studio chief Harry Cohn to give Sinatra the part in "From Here to Eternity" that resurrected his career. That story isn't true: Cohn gave the part to Sinatra because his original choice, Eli Wallach, "wasn't skinny enough." It was also rumored that Sinatra sang at Moretti's daughter's wedding.

As for Jules/Lucy (one of the most boring and unnecessary parts of the novel, IMO): I've long believed that he included it so he could describe her gynecological operation in detail. I'm betting that one of Puzo's female relatives/friends had the operation. It fascinated him, and he couldn't resist putting it in the novel, in detail--just as he included all that Hollywood BS in detail.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Frankie_Five_Angels] #965214
03/04/19 01:03 AM
03/04/19 01:03 AM
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Posts: 4,175
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Turnbull did you post that article about Sinatra and Puzo's clash at a restaurant? Anyhow, Puzo says he didn't even want to meet Sinatra, but his agent or something insisted on it and said Frank wanted to meet him. So Puzo approaches Frank as Frank's eating, and introduces himself. Sinatra ignores him and keeps eating. Puzo talked about how weird it was being snubbed by someone he had no intention of impressing in the first place. This reminds me of the Sopranos scene where John Sack tells Ralphie that everything is okay between him and Tony, that he should go see him etc. and when he does Tony ignores him...while eating. Wonder if the Puzo-Sinatra story is where they got that idea.


"...the successful annihilation of organized crime's subculture in America would rock the 'legitimate' world's foundation, which would ultimately force fundamental social changes and redistributions of wealth and power in this country. Meyer Lansky's dream was to bond the two worlds together so that one could not survive without the other." - Dan E. Moldea
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Turnbull] #965231
03/04/19 11:54 AM
03/04/19 11:54 AM
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The Last Woltz Offline
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I think most everyone would agree that the Jules/Lucy subplot was the novel's low point.

What I loved best about it was the background it gives on some smaller characters of the film - Luca Brasi, Neri, "the negotiator," etc.

Last edited by The Last Woltz; 03/04/19 11:54 AM.

"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Frankie_Five_Angels] #965278
03/05/19 01:21 AM
03/05/19 01:21 AM
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Does anyone think Vinny would’ve been a good boss? Was always interested in them making a movie about him. Maybe with the de-aging technology, they can still do it. But they won’t.

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Revis_Island] #965281
03/05/19 02:51 AM
03/05/19 02:51 AM
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Lana Offline
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Probably not! Vincent is too hot-headed, like his father Santino, to make a good boss

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Evita] #965282
03/05/19 02:51 AM
03/05/19 02:51 AM
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Lana Offline
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Originally Posted by Evita
My two cents worth!

Brothers, all sentiments aside....

I reckon the brothers loved each other but it is the business they had chosen

I don't believe Michael blamed Tom for the Corleone's misfortunes

Michael's comment to Kay at Connie's wedding "He's a good lawyer. Not a Sicilian but I think he's gonna be consiglieri" was long before Vito getting shot, Sonny's murder

I agree if not for Michael, Vito would have been killed by Sollozzo, with Police Captain McCluskey letting it happen

Sonny agreed to Tom's advocacy to waiting and it appeared so did the most experienced Clemenza and Tessio too
It doesn't constitute to me, negative opinion of Tom as I reckon it was all about Michael being the better strategist

I reckon Michael would have resented anyone mapping out his future, in that flashback scene at the end of II

No doubt Turnbull
Originally Posted by Turnbull
Tom wasn't Sicilian, so he didn't fully understand a Sicilian's overarching need for honor and vengeance against all logic. And, as a lawyer, he was oriented toward conciliation and negotiation, not toward force

Vito was slipping If anybody is to be blamed, first and foremost, it is Vito for appointing Tom as consiglieri
Michael's concern was justified and in times, detrimental too

Tom seemed clueless It was his sheer incompetence "Duh-h-h, Tom!"
My take, for what it is worth!

It did not seem to me either “Michael blamed Tom for the Corleone's misfortunes”

Sure thing "the brothers loved each other but it is the business they had chosen"

Michael told blood brother Fredo off for taking sides against the family in the Las Vegas Greene incident ie: makes no difference blood or step brother
[Michael introduced Tom to Kay as “my brother”]

Vito knew Tom was not a wartime consiglieri yet Vito made Tom, good lawyer, not a Sicilian, the consiglieri albeit in 'peace' time

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Frankie_Five_Angels] #965283
03/05/19 02:51 AM
03/05/19 02:51 AM
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Australia
Lana Offline
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Ref: thread Tom and Fredo may be of interest regarding Tom's shortcomings

Than again, Michael had his own shortcomings and failings as well among others,

  • [also Don Tommasino] underestimating Fabrizio
  • falling for 'spin doctor' Ola's 'propaganda' about Tropigala that Michael can move Klingman out and their friend [Roth] in Miami will go along [in spte of Ola bringing an orange! from Miami]
  • underestimating Roth
  • [also Vito] underestimating Fredo
  • underestimating the Rosato brothers that they would “settle these troubles” with Pentangeli
  • underestimating Kay [Kay overestimating Michael and self-deceiving, unrealistic legitimacy, let alone in five years]
  • underestimating Anthony
  • overestimating Vincent

Perhaps Michael could [should?] have handled differently
  • [also Vito] giving Fredo at least a face saving role in the family to show that Fredo is valued in his own right
  • Michael not comforting his wife, Kay who just had a 'miscarriage'
  • Perhaps if Michael had the same “losing the family” talk with Kay......second chance at their marriage
  • The treatment of Tom the only person Michael could trust even though Tom was not the most competent! consigliere
  • Hanging Frankie Pentangeli out to dry
  • Not taking care of the 'dead' capo Frankie's family
  • Killing his own blood brother Fredo
  • handed Mary on a platter to Mosca Another woman dying in place of Michael

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: The Last Woltz] #965284
03/05/19 03:04 AM
03/05/19 03:04 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 18,062
AZ
Turnbull Offline
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Oak, I didn't post the story about Puzo meeting Sinatra, but I read it elsewhere.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: The Last Woltz] #965285
03/05/19 03:09 AM
03/05/19 03:09 AM
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Posts: 18,062
AZ
Turnbull Offline
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Originally Posted by The Last Woltz
I think most everyone would agree that the Jules/Lucy subplot was the novel's low point.

What I loved best about it was the background it gives on some smaller characters of the film - Luca Brasi, Neri, "the negotiator," etc.

Agreed. The best stories were how they found Neri, the Bocchiccios, Sonny and the boiler repairmen, Vito and his war with "Maranzalla" and Luca and the Capone gunmen.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Revis_Island] #965286
03/05/19 03:13 AM
03/05/19 03:13 AM
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Posts: 18,062
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Turnbull Offline
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Originally Posted by Revis_Island
Does anyone think Vinny would’ve been a good boss? Was always interested in them making fmovie about him. Maybe with the de-aging technology, they can still do it. But they won’t.

Vincent showed some maturity toward the end. But, when Michael told him, "Nephew, call yourself Vincent Corleone" toward the end, I think he was using him in two ways: 1) get him away from Mary; 2) put him in charge of the remaining muscle end of the family and maybe the "Olive Oil Business, but mostly as Michael's protector. Saying, "Call yourself Vincent Corleone" was a great way to cement his undying loyalty by finally accepting him as a real member of the family. But, I don't think Michael ever had him in mind as a successor to his legitimate business interests.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Frankie_Five_Angels] #965403
03/07/19 12:40 AM
03/07/19 12:40 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 14,481
Texas
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olivant Offline
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When you think about it TB, why did Michael take Vincent on after Vincent murdered the two assassins that Zasa sent? As Michael's protector? Did Michael anticipate troubles? That's a curious scene.

Regardless, Vincent was a pale imitation of Michael as Don. I think Vincent represents the new breed of Mafiosi who just don't have the acumen, the substance that previous Mafiosi (apparently) had. To me, they seem like just muscle.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: olivant] #965406
03/07/19 01:55 AM
03/07/19 01:55 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 18,062
AZ
Turnbull Offline
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Originally Posted by olivant
When you think about it TB, why did Michael take Vincent on after Vincent murdered the two assassins that Zasa sent? As Michael's protector? Did Michael anticipate troubles? That's a curious scene.

To keep the plot going, really. I suppose you could say that Michael was protecting his nephew, if you attribute that much family feeling to Michael.

Quote
Regardless, Vincent was a pale imitation of Michael as Don. I think Vincent represents the new breed of Mafiosi who just don't have the acumen, the substance that previous Mafiosi (apparently) had. To me, they seem like just muscle.

Agreed.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Frankie_Five_Angels] #965450
03/07/19 03:35 PM
03/07/19 03:35 PM
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Revis_Island Offline
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Though I’m not calling for a Godfather 4, I would like to see a modern day Godfather spinoff set in the same universe.

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Frankie_Five_Angels] #965488
03/07/19 11:10 PM
03/07/19 11:10 PM
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Revis_Island Offline
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I always liked Garcia’s portrayal of Vincent and I believe that it was the best performance in Godfather 3. Unfortunately, because the movie was met with such a deservedly poor reaction then they couldn’t really expand on his character in potential future movies. I’m in the minority because I very much enjoyed The Godfather 3. I thought it was very good. Still some classic scenes and moments in there.

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Lana] #965766
03/10/19 09:25 PM
03/10/19 09:25 PM
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Posts: 47
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Evita Offline
Wiseguy
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Wiseguy
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Originally Posted by Lana
Ref: thread Tom and Fredo may be of interest regarding Tom's shortcomings

Than again, Michael had his own shortcomings and failings as well among others,

  • [also Don Tommasino] underestimating Fabrizio
  • falling for 'spin doctor' Ola's 'propaganda' about Tropigala that Michael can move Klingman out and their friend [Roth] in Miami will go along [in spte of Ola bringing an orange! from Miami]
  • underestimating Roth
  • [also Vito] underestimating Fredo
  • underestimating the Rosato brothers that they would “settle these troubles” with Pentangeli
  • underestimating Kay [Kay overestimating Michael and self-deceiving, unrealistic legitimacy, let alone in five years]
  • underestimating Anthony
  • overestimating Vincent

Perhaps Michael could [should?] have handled differently
  • [also Vito] giving Fredo at least a face saving role in the family to show that Fredo is valued in his own right
  • Michael not comforting his wife, Kay who just had a 'miscarriage'
  • Perhaps if Michael had the same “losing the family” talk with Kay......second chance at their marriage
  • The treatment of Tom the only person Michael could trust even though Tom was not the most competent! consigliere
  • Hanging Frankie Pentangeli out to dry
  • Not taking care of the 'dead' capo Frankie's family
  • Killing his own blood brother Fredo
  • handed Mary on a platter to Mosca Another woman dying in place of Michael

Interesting list

He was upfront during his marriage proposal,
Been back longer than a year
Working for his father
Corleone killings
Illegitimate Corleone family business

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Evita] #965793
03/11/19 11:43 AM
03/11/19 11:43 AM
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Posts: 18,062
AZ
Turnbull Offline
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Back to: Did anyone else notice:
In the Havana nightclub scene in II, when Fredo is playing host to all those politicos, Sen. Geary, putting on his best leer, says, "I'll have one of those redheaded Yolandas" (referring to the singer on the stage. If you look very closely, Michael rolls his eyes, as if to say, "There he goes again, thinking with his dick."


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Frankie_Five_Angels] #965844
03/11/19 09:38 PM
03/11/19 09:38 PM
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Revis_Island Offline
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Do you think Geary knew deep down that he was setup?

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Revis_Island] #965863
03/11/19 11:37 PM
03/11/19 11:37 PM
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Turnbull Offline
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I think Geary would have to be a lot stupider than he already was if he didn't pretty quickly figure out that he'd been set up at Fredo's brothel. Then again, he helped set up Michael at the Senate hearing. As a member of the subcommittee, he had to know that Pentangeli had survived, and that they were secretly holding him in reserve as a witness against Michael. By asking Cicci if he'd ever gotten a direct order from Michael (knowing that Cicci'd say no), he was helping Michael to believe that there was no witness who could connect him to the subcommittee's charges--and that he could perjure himself without fear of prosecution.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Frankie_Five_Angels] #967318
03/20/19 07:25 AM
03/20/19 07:25 AM
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Capri Offline
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Godfather II
1. was Michael running the nation's top Mafia Family
2. did Michael blamed Tom for the Corleone's misfortunes
3. was there any divorce/child custody hearing [Kay didn't seem to have any visitation rights even]
4. did Kay get the kids
5. wasn't Corleone family direction not to be like the Roman Empire it once was

Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Capri] #967611
03/23/19 11:31 PM
03/23/19 11:31 PM
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Three great John Cazale moments in GFII when he and Michael are having their tete-a-tete in the outdoor cafe in Havana:
1. Fredo says, "Sometimes I think I should have settled down, married a girl like Kay, been more like..." He pauses. We wait for him to say, "like you." Instead he says, "like Pop."
2. He bends down, grasps Michael's hand, looks away, mutters, "Mikey, I was mad at you"--almost ready to make a confession. Then he tears his hand away, gets angry and says, "Why didn't we spend time like this before?" pulling back from the brink.
3. Michael tells Fredo that Sen. Geary and some bigshots are coming to Havana. "I want you to show them a good time." Fredo hesitates for a moment, looks resigned, almost regretful, and says, "My specialty, right?" I see it as a precursor to "Send Fredo to run some Mickey Mouse nightclub."


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Frankie_Five_Angels] #967669
03/24/19 04:29 PM
03/24/19 04:29 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 14,481
Texas
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olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 14,481
Texas
TB, I look at Fredo's statements in a familial way. There are any number of siblings who hold resentments, grudges, and hurts against their siblings maybe because of the attention their siblings received from their parents. Of course, in the grand context of a Mafia family on film, those resentments become magnified.

Some of Fredo's language represents his frustration with himself: his failure to do this or to do that. Such frustration is common to many of us ("It might have been"). How do we assuage that frustration. Well, Fredo tried to do it by seeking solace in the arms (so to speak) of someone who gave him a degree of solace and comfort.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: Turnbull] #967719
03/25/19 09:54 AM
03/25/19 09:54 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 711
Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz Offline
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The Last Woltz  Offline
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 711
Pittsburgh, PA
Originally Posted by Turnbull
"Why didn't we spend time like this before?"


Not to get too deep into the weeds, but I've always felt the wording and syntax of this sentence is fascinating.

Normally, if you're sorry you haven't had a great time together in the past, you'd say something like, "Why haven't we ever spent time like this?" That wording and tense implies regret for time lost but also hope for the future.

But Fredo uses "before" without "ever" and speaks in the past tense, showing that something has happened that will prevent him from having a fraternal relationship with Michael moving forward.

For instance, if you go to dinner with a platonic friend and realize you have feelings for each other, you'd say, "What haven't we ever done this?" But if you did it right after her wedding, you'd say, "Why didn't we do this before?"

Anyway, that is a great "tell" from Fredo that he knows that he has crossed a line that cannot be uncrossed, and also a clue that Michael didn't seem to pick up on at the time, but may have by the time the New Year's Eve party rolled around.


"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
Re: Did anyone else notice that ....... [Re: The Last Woltz] #967946
03/28/19 12:32 AM
03/28/19 12:32 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 14,481
Texas
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olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 14,481
Texas
Originally Posted by The Last Woltz
Originally Posted by Turnbull
"Why didn't we spend time like this before?"


Not to get too deep into the weeds, but I've always felt the wording and syntax of this sentence is fascinating.

Normally, if you're sorry you haven't had a great time together in the past, you'd say something like, "Why haven't we ever spent time like this?" That wording and tense implies regret for time lost but also hope for the future.

But Fredo uses "before" without "ever" and speaks in the past tense, showing that something has happened that will prevent him from having a fraternal relationship with Michael moving forward.

For instance, if you go to dinner with a platonic friend and realize you have feelings for each other, you'd say, "What haven't we ever done this?" But if you did it right after her wedding, you'd say, "Why didn't we do this before?"

Anyway, that is a great "tell" from Fredo that he knows that he has crossed a line that cannot be uncrossed, and also a clue that Michael didn't seem to pick up on at the time, but may have by the time the New Year's Eve party rolled around.


You have a good point Woltz. Fredo's lament is the epitome of regret (what might have been).

By the way, in what part of Pittsburgh do you live?


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
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