I have not been on here in a while.

I see some new info on Buffalo.

If anyone remembers that was my guess that the family was still viable however, probably not in a traditional sense....

That possibly the power bad shifted to Canada and the family would resemble a structure similar to Rizzutto than L.C.N.

That's basically what that chart says.

?????

Everyone in agreement of.

The family still exists and has rackets and like any other family there is some sort of leadership.

Just not Boss, UB, Consig, Capo etc.

Ciminelli worked with known organized crime figures. So when I said; "And there’s no doubt the Ciminelli family has connections to the mob as do most construction bigwigs from the 1990s" I was right. He has connections to the mob in that he did business in the construction industry with known organized crime figures who committed crimes within the construction industry.
"Mobbed up" was the wrong terminology, but there is absolutely no doubt that he had connections with the mob.


Whether willingly or unwillingly, he had connections to organized crime. In the '91 indictment, it says this:
"The plaintiffs allege that organized crime controls the defendant Laborers' International Union of North America Local #210 located in Buffalo, New York ("Local 210"). The plaintiffs further allege that Local 210 and organized crime control the Pension Fund."

So Ciminelli's improper use of pension funds was, based on the indictment, done under the control of the Buffalo Mafia. That makes him more than just a contractor connected to organized crime, it makes him a participant in organized crime.

Ciminelli, a trustee in Local 210's pension fund, was charged in a criminal complaint with improper use of pension funds alongside prominent organized crime figures, most of whom were also trustees. This complaint was directly based around organized crime's "control (of) the Pension Fund."


No there isn't.
Saying that a union trustee, who was charged in a racketeering criminal complaint alongside powerful Buffalo Mafia figures, is connected to organized crime figures is a helluva lot different than trying to directly contradict all available reputable evidence regarding a crime family.


Here's the thing Nickle. You have no evidence of that whatsoever. You have also never been proven right in any of your unsubstantiated street talk. People have been lying on internet forums about the Mafia since the forums began in the 1990s. Whose to say you're any different. None of us know who you are whatsoever and you have no track record to go on.
So sure, hearing about BiFulco getting respect at a funeral would really help your point. But for all I know, that is complete B.S.



There is factual evidence that Ciminelli was under the control of the Buffalo Mafia. That is because there is evidence that Local 210's Pension Fund was under the control of the Mafia, and Ciminelli was a trustee on the pension fund. There is also evidence that Ciminelli was associated with the Buffalo Mafia because he was charged in a racketeering complaint with the Buffalo Mafia, meaning that he was committing crimes in furtherance of an ongoing criminal organization - from the complaint, this ongoing criminal organization was the "Buffalo organized crime syndicate."

That is why the allegation can be made that Ciminelli is mobbed-up. He committed crimes on behalf of the Buffalo Mafia.


Compare this to the allegation that the Buffalo Mafia, in 2018, is still an active crime family. There have been multiple law enforcement statements that the Buffalo Mafia is no longer active. This is coming from the very people dedicated to fighting organized crime. These are not just from one law enforcement agency, either. This claim has been echoed by district attorneys, federal prosecutors, etc. This claim has also been backed up by dedicated organized crime reporters - in particular, Buffalo and Niagara Falls reporters who have regularly reported on the Buffalo Mob for years.
There have been no law enforcement officers or journalists that have said Louis Ciminelli is completely free from organized crime ties. In fact, law enforcement has charged Ciminelli with aiding the racketeering conspiracy (i.e. the Buffalo Mafia).
It shouldn't be hard to see the difference here Nickle.

Now comes the common sense angle. My argument is that Ciminelli was connected to organized crime and "mobbed up." As I said before, mobbed-up may not have been the best term because it's too colloquial and you decided to hang onto it in order to make your point. Also the definition for "mobbed-up" varies. "Connections to organized crime" is a lot easier to explain. Louis Ciminelli did illegal business in furtherance of a Buffalo Mafia-controlled racketeering conspiracy. That makes him a) "connected to organized crime" and b) "mobbed up" by my definition. Even though nobody has specifically come out and said "Louis Ciminelli is an organized crime figure or associate," common sense says that yes, he had extensive connections to the Buffalo Mafia because he did illegal business under the illegally-controlled union with organized crime figures.

Meanwhile, common sense says that the Buffalo Mafia is not active. This is because, in the 21st century, no known active family has been able to avoid indictments. For Buffalo to be active, it would have to break the mold, despite the fact that those with no current connection to the family (funeral directors, Ron Fino, The Rooster, NickleCity) know of it's illegal activities or have observed classic Mafia functions. Secondly, if the Buffalo Mafia was active, than law enforcement, especially the FBI's Organized Crime Branch in Buffalo, would be open, active, and ready to go after it as opposed to denying it for no reason. As well as this, organized crime reporters would want to report on the Buffalo Mafia if it was active since it's their full-time job and their bread and butter. The fact that they are saying the family is not active is indicative that the family is indeed not active.

Which chart is that, Bensonhurst?



If you've been reading this thread, you know that's not in agreement.

I started out by saying I haven't been on i a while.

I have not read the whole thread ??
It is a novel at this point LOL

I skimmed the last couple of pages and seen a picture/chart from IHS that lists Buffalo as a family however, not LCN

I thought you posted it?
A couple of pages back?

Not a chart, but a map of where the alleged Todaro syndicate is based IIRC

It comes down to veracity of sources. I trust the people I’ve heard from. So I guess I should have been more precise: It is reasonable for me to believe what’s left of the family is organized and active, given my relationship with the person(s) I've talked to. It may not be reasonable for you are anyone else to believe the family is organized and active if you don’t have trustworthy sources indicating it is. It is reasonable for you to believe “only few remnants remain.” Point is reasonable people can draw different yet reasonable conclusions.

So we’re right back to where we started, huh? I’ve been saying this since day one: if you’ve got street sources, fine, but don’t a) state them as fact, b) take offence when people don’t believe them and c) call people delusional, sheep, or any other associated terms if they don’t believe them. This doesn’t necessarily apply to you Nickle, but it applies to a lot of people. If you think the Buffalo family is active based on private sources you have, god bless, but don’t argue endlessly against the evidence at hand. Don’t, for one second, even INFER that the evidence at hand points to the traditional Buffalo family being active, as a structural LCN enterprise. That’s all I’ve been saying since day one, Nickle, and it doesn’t necessarily apply to you since you’ve been nothing but respectful and intelligent on this forum but apply to a handful of people. Since Day 1 my argument has not been “You can’t possibly have street sources”, my argument has been “Don’t argue that you’re unverified street sources are more credible than the federal government.”

@Nicky, What is this all about? Did you bait me--so you could belittle me again? You are the one that brought it up. You asked the question when you wrote:



I only responded to you, because you asked. I was perfectly content to leave things where things were they were at. Nobody on this thread has done your: a), b), or c), in a while. In fact, because no one has done your a), b), or c) in a while I have to believe your comments are aimed at me. Bensonhurst and I are the only ones to have responded on this thread since your question.

Even before your question I only posted links to the Ciminelli trial. Notice I didn't comment. I didn't suggest LCN. Further, I posted the links because what happened was organized crime that took place in Buffalo. I even said there is no evidence of LCN structure, or of a LCN family in this trial. But I posted the links because what Cimineli did was organized and it was crime. He worked with several other individuals in NYS government and elsewhere who organized this bid rigging scheme and were indicted and some even convicted, as he was. Maybe I should have established a different thread. My fault I ask your forgiveness! I just thought since Ciminelli in the past was, as you readily admit, "connect" to LCN and "mobbed up" as you put it, it would be OK to go here. Maybe I was wrong. I am sorry it has offended you so greatly.

Please understand it was not my intention to hurt your feelings and cause you to lash out in this way.

Please take it down a notch. Please treat me and others with the respect we deserve. I, really, don't know what threw you into a rage over this, given the fact that I didn't do your a, b, or c. And I don't believe Bensonhurst did either.

Also, I never said I had a street source. I would not call the undertaker or preachers I know street sources. They are sources however and we all know street sources or any sources can be wrong. And, I hope we all know the federal government isn't always right either. My only point and I wouldn't have made it again if you didn't ask the question.

What I would appreciate is you not intimating I am unreasonable, especially when you begged the question and my response.

You answered my question, Nickle, and I thanked you for that. Then you brought up Cuomo and then Ciminelli and started going on about an alleged double standard and began sarcastically berating me for inferring Ciminelli was mobbed-up, which evidence shows he is.
Then you began saying how, with the sources you personally have, you believe the Buffalo family is active and that it is reasonable for you to believe it was active based on your sources. That’s when I said, “sure that’s fine, but my issue is with the people who pretend their sources are fact and call people delusional for not believing them,” or words to that effect. I mentioned multiple times that you were not necessarily guilty of this but many previous posters were. Then you decided to ignore that and take it as a personal insult, despite the fact that I explicitly said my issue was not with you, it was the people who paraded their unverified street talk as fact. The reason I made this comment was because you were justifying why you believed the family still active. My response was an attempt to say “fine, there’s nothing wrong with that but there is something wrong with other posters who say such and such.”

I am pretty sure everyone agrees that the evidence points more to.an evolution rather than an extinction of the Buffalo LCN,

Nicky, are you sticking to your position that they belong in the same category of other extinct LCN families that are just be memory?

Organised crime in a specific city doesn’t go extinct. There is still organised crime in New Orleans and Kansas City and the like. And the old career criminal mob guys don’t just get jobs at Cinnabon and retire from crime.

I am sticking to the evidence at hand which says that the Buffalo crime family, the traditional La Cosa Nostra family with capos and induction ceremonies in the city of Buffalo and surrounding areas, is extinct. There is no way to look at the cold hard evidence and say otherwise. In Canada it could very well have changed structure and shape, but even then the traditional Buffalo LCN structure in Canada is extinct.
Again, if you have street sources that you trust who say otherwise, that’s great. But the evidence is pretty loud and clear in saying that, in Buffalo, the Todaro/Magaddino crime family has gone the way of the dodo. Remember, I’ve said in the past that I am OPEN to the Canadian wing of the family having branched off and done it’s own thing following the assassinations of Papalia and his top lieutenant because there was no crippling law enforcement pressure like there was in the states, however it would be foolish to assume they would have co-existed with the other powerful region organisations, including the guys who killed Papalia.

Not everyone agrees, but Edwards points to an evolution of sorts when he writes the following about the Buffalo Families organization as of 2013:

Edwards is interesting and, as I’ve always said, there are undoubtedly lots of guys that remained active, or even solid crews. But there is more reputable evidence that the Buffalo LCN is dead, and that includes statements from multiple Buffalo journalists, DAs, prosecutors, Buffalo organised crime agents, and yes, even Ron Fino.
More specifically, there is Mafia threat in Western NYS. So maybe there are independent crews, members from other crime families, members from Canada, but not enough for the FBI to want to investigate.

Family may be small but is active and organized enough to be involved with healthcare fraud with other families.

There's no credible, verified information that says that is true and those saying that the family is active with healthcare fraud are not in any position to actually know.

SC must not get on here anymore. Back in the days he would've shut this down 7 pages ago.

I mean 11 pages fellas. Agree to disagree and move on.

Boss: ???
Underboss:Robert "Bobby" Panaro Jr.
Consigliere:Victor Sansanese,consigliere from 2012

Captain: Frank "Butchie Bifocals" BiFulco b.1945

Soldiers:

Pasquale "Paddy" Brindisi b.1942
Robert "Bobby" Colao (not sure)
Frank Falzone b.1950
Peter Gerace b.1927 maybe retired
Frank Grisanti
Samuel "Sam" Lagattuta Jr.
Robert "Bobby" Panaro Jr.
John A. Pieri
Joseph R. Pieri Jr.
Victor Sansanese b.1945
Richard Todaro
Louis Tavano b.1941
Joseph Todaro Jr. b.1947

Captain: Russell "Russ" Carcone b.1954 Utica

Soldiers:

Philip "Phil" Corelli b.1963
James "Jimmy" Feliciano b.1977
Frank Ferraro b.1943
Frank Marino b.1940

Captain: Joseph "Joey Paps" Pugliese Canada

Soldiers:

Ignazio "Harold" Bordonaro
Corrado"Cookie" Caruso
Paul "Paulie" Cipolla
Ralph Criminisi
Bruno "Bronzie" DePaolo b.1967
Joseph "Joey Dips" DePaolo
Michael "Mike" DePaolo
Daniel "Danny" Gasbarinni
Dominic Italiano
Vincent "Vinny" Lombardo
Frank "Frankie" Papalia b.1930
Rocco Papalia b.1935
Anthony "Tony" Pugliese

At this point we can say that the family's canadian crew was merged with luppino family and that in the buffalo area there are only 20 mobsters or less.

Furio, it’s one thing to say the family is active, it’s another to make a completely bullshit chart up out of thin air.
The reason the discussion between me and Nickle hasn’t been closed yet is because neither of us are lying, fabricating or being ignorant of the facts. But how am I supposed to react when a completely unverified chart is posted on the thread?

The site where I find the chart (Bill Feather'site) was realible until now. And anyway apart the FBI who could give a "reliable chart"?

Except for the fact that you added your own BS facts, didn't you Furio? Nowhere on Bill Feather's chart (http://mafiamembershipcharts.blogspot.com/search/label/Buffalo?updated-max=2017-11-07T03:51:00-08:00&max-results=20&start=2&by-date=false), does it list anybody as an underboss or consigliere.

Did you think that you could blatantly lie about Bill Feather's chart and I wouldn't notice?

I don't lied I said only that the site was reliable until now,I put the underboss and consigliere names when started the thread in 2016.

Maybe it's the language barrier but you just posted the chart, with underboss, consiglieres, etc., and then posted that you got it from Bill Feather's site, despite the fact that the chart you posted was definitely not from Bill Feather's site, and you made up titles and ranks.

Ok this is the list from bill feather's site

1. BiFulco-Frank 1945 Capo
2. Brindisi-Pasquale Paddy 1942 Utica
3. Bordonaro-Ignazio Harold Canada
4. Cannizzaro-Annunzio Red
5. Carcone-Russell 1954 Capo Utica
6. Cardinale-Ronald 1951
7. Caruso-Corrado Cookie Canada
8. Chimera-Robert 1936
9. Cipolla-Frank
10. Cipolla-Paul* Canada
11. Corelli-Phillip 1963 Utica
12. Criminisi-Ralph Canada
13. DePaolo-Bruno* Bronzie 1967 Canada
14. DePaolo-Joseph* Joey Dips Canada
15. DePaolo-Michael* Canada
16. DiCarlo-Donald* 1939
17. Falzone-Frank* 1950
18. Falzone-Leonard 1935 Boss
19. Feliciano-James 1977 Utica
20. Ferraro-Frank 1943 Utica
21. Frangiamore-Sam Jnr. The Farmer 1952
22. Giglia-William 1946
23. Inserra-Anthony 1946 Utica
24. Italiano-Dominic Capo Canada
25. Lombardo-Vincent Canada
26. Luppino-Anthony* Canada
27. Luppino-John* Canada
28. Luppino-Natale* Canada
29. Luppino-Rocco* Canada
30. Mambrino-Carmen 1969
31. Marino-Frank 1940 Utica
32. Minicone-Jack* 1948 Utica
33. Monaco-Bruno Canada
34. Nappi-Donato* Dan 1943
35. Panaro-Robert Snowball 1943
36. Papalia-Frank 1930 Canada
37. Papalia-Rocco 1935 Canada
38. Perri-Frank* Canada
39. Pieri-John
40. Pieri-Joseph Jnr.
41. Pugliese-Anthony* Canada
42. Pugliese-Joseph Capo Canada
43. Pugliese-Pasquale* Canada
44. Randazzo-Joseph
45. Sabella-Joseph
46. Sansanese-Victor 1945
47. Scopelliti-Rocco 1935
48. Tavano-Larry 1941
49. Tavano-Louis 1941
50. Tavano-Robert 1938
51. Todaro-Joseph Jnr. 1947
52. Todaro-Richard 1936
53. Tutino-Nicholas*
54. Vaccaro-Dominic
55. Volpe-Albert

55 made men are too for a dead family and I said first that maybe the names of the canadian faction are simply members of the Luppino family and not buffalo soldiers.

Thanks Furio.
And, in the other Buffalo thread, we also established that the chart is inaccurate because it lists associates as members frequently, meaning this list could actually be more than double of who were know are actually made members. For example, all we know about James Feliciano is that he was arrested as part of Russ Carcone’s fencing ring. We have no idea in what capacity. But Bill Feather lists him as made. There is not a sliver of evidence that even points to that being true. I’m sure there are far more examples and yes, like you said, the Luppino thing is probably a factor as well. All in all, Bill Feather is a researcher - he has no real authority over other mainstream sources, since all he does is compile information from mainstream sources. Why he lists associates as made members (I have some examples in his Tampa chart as well), is anybody’s guess. But there is no way that anybody can point to his charts and say “Look, Bill says the family has (blank) members and the feds only say the family has (blank) members! The feds must be lying.”

I found this Mukremin 2012 chart of Buffalo family

Furio, that seems to correlate more with what we know. Mukremin is a great organized crime poster and chart-maker, but I don't think he has ever admitted to knowing more than the feds or other acclaimed sources. He is simply an organized crime researcher who specializes in making charts.
So this chart here is, again, not any sort of admission or evidence that the Buffalo crime family is still active. Far from it. Don't be mistaken that it is.

This is true and if what I think would be also true, ie that the canadian faction was merged with the Luppino family there are only 11 made members and maybe 10/20 associate.So the family is definitly dead.

One of the 5 new york families would probably have a crew in buffalo if there wasn't anything going on

Anyone know anything about an alleged Magadinno-Frank Sinatra incident ? Wondering if anyone else knows about it before I go into further detail.

What makes you say that?