if deleo was younger I’m sure he would look to whack Capeci for releasing that. Just ruined his career over some ancient sh*t. Reporters should be careful doing that sort of thing can make them fair game to some of these guys.

He allegedly still runs the family from prison as he has since his initial 1986 imprisonment, although proper in a lesser capacity now that he's trying to appeal his sentence.

You keep lying over and over on here, it never ends.

It’s bizarre and pathetic, really.

He understands a bit, but wants to stir people up for whatever sick reason. He's turned everything into race issues and arguments. and calls other posters racist at an ever increasing pace.

Believe me, journalists have had some pretty scathing reviews about the American LCN and none of them have ever been whacked for it. There was a New York Post that (correctly) inferred Greg Scarpa Sr. was an informer (the article came out in the early '90s, could be wrong on the date). Scarpa, of course, couldn't do anything about it. There was a Times article accusing Aniello Dellacroce of being an informer, and he didn't do anything either.
Journalists are off-limits. That's pretty much rule no. 1. Police officers too.

Sorry Nicky I meant deleo not Persico?

Believe me, I know who you meant and my point does not change.

I think the Colombos will be really rebuilt after the snake the death with the real boss on the streets.

There’s no way he has much say about anything.. Every form of communication is monitored and with 100 guys or whatever it’s not possible to be updated on every situation. He probably gets some money and a couple guys probably fluff him up so he can feel important. I’m sure they respect him but he’s just too far removed for too long.

I don't think his person-to-person visits are monitored considering he's only in medium security. Same as how Michael Mancuso is/was able to relay orders through prison as recently as 2015 through his nephew.

Why?

The Colombos have been rebuilding with Russo in charge, little gains but they are indeed rebuilding.

Not to defend Oak here, but does anyone honestly believe someone like Frank Costello could attain all that power, rub shoulders with the political denizens of New York, become "Prime Minister of the Underworld", without selling a few of his chums down the river? Honestly now?

There were a lot less rats back then because the mafia were basically given carte blanche because the FBI were too busy chasing their tails over communists.

Look at how quickly Costello moved out of the way when Genovese tried to take him out.

A lot of these guys wouldn't have been able to do the hard time if the FBI dangled all the benefits guys like Massino, Leonetti, D'Arco and Gravano got.

I mean all of those guys got to keep the lions share of their illicitly gained wealth; the Feds even agreed to back off Massino's wife even though she was complicit in a lot of his rackets, he practically gave her more power than his own brother in law.

I don't think Frank Costello ever gave the Feds info, maybe a slip of the tongue right near the end of his rule, but not like how it is described as above. Luciano gave up some information to the cops before being made. Carlo Gambino is suspected of giving information to the FBN during the 1940's and 50's. Joe Colombo is suspected of giving information on some of the guys with the Gallo brothers. I am sure there are some back in the day before they were made. Once made they never mentioned the Italian organizations names, but other criminals not affiliated with them. I don't believe 50 percent, more like 5 percent, more when you include associates.

Snitching is just another rule that was made to be broken. If there's millions of dollars at stake, they won't hesitate. Look how they got Vito Genovese locked up.

To be honest I don't see what's so hard to believe about upper-echelon criminals having a relationship with the authorities. These guys aren't mythical heroes, and you gotta grease palms to get shit done. I absolutely can see these guys dropping dimes on their competition. Not in the traditional snitching sense where a guy takes the stand, but passing along info here and there in exchange for leniency or other favors. The world is not as black and white as some of you seem to think it is. Look at the well-known cases of guys who sort of "ratted their way to the top". Whitey Bulger/Stevie Flemmi and Greg Scarpa are the most well-known but I'd bet both balls there are plenty more who never had any paperwork to go with the info they gave up.

Have to fake it to make it and have to snitch to get rich. Carlo Gambino had a coffee mug with that phrase on it.

Here's the thing - the Costello era was completely different. In those days, law enforcement didn't corrupt mobsters, mobsters corrupted law enforcement. Most mobsters in those days never got hard time, and a lot of very successful ones were able to brush shoulders with high society. That doesn't mean all of them were snitches. In fact, the FBI's mindset in that time was to put organized crime and the Mafia in the backseat whilst the dealt with bank robberies and the like.
In an era where it was dirt-cheap to corrupt law enforcement and mess with the court system however you pleased, there is little point in risking your entire career and reputation to drop a couple of dimes on the competition.


No, no, no. There's nothing hard to be "about upper-echelon criminals having a relationship with the authorities." It's the notion that HALF - yes, 50% - of mobsters IN HISTORY were informers. That's the notion that I, and I assume just about everybody else in the forum, has a problem with.



If they never had any paperwork to go with the info they gave up then there cannot have been any substantial info. Which means their snitching was completely pointless. Which would mean that all they did was risk their career and reputation over inconsequential information that was so pathetic it was never even documented.


Here's the thing with using Greg Scarpa as an example of how an informer can use it to his advantage, yada yada. Greg Scarpa was a person who, over a 30 year period as an FBI, never spent more than 30 days behind bars despite everybody else falling around him. If you can find me more examples like that, you might have a case of a potential informer on your hands. The thing is, the vast majority of mobsters get locked up and don't have a seemingly mystical fairy godmother giving them lenient sentences. They don't have the feds vouching for less jail time. How can you argue that a mobster is an informant when he doesn't regular, heavy jail stretches. Why would the FBI conduct serious, lengthy investigations on their top-echelon informers?
Here's the other thing with Scarpa. Everybody SUSPECTED he was an informer anyways. Rumors went round for years. Peter Lance's book "Deal with the Devil" goes into more detail. Not to mention, Scarpa was open about having a "girlfriend" with the feds who could help him out. There was even a NY Post article written BEFORE his death that indicated he was a rat.
So how on earth can you tell me that 50% of all mobsters in history were informers? And how on earth can you say they were just like Scarpa, when Scarpa's underworld status was completely unique for 30 years.

Well said.

Although I reckon there’s a lot of dry snitching going on amongst mobsters. Enemies, jealousy, competition makes this likely. Dry snitching however ain’t the same as normal snitching sitting down with feds though. Not the same at all. There’s no get out of jail card for dry snitching obviously.

Massino was a rat, Costello never was. He had the authorities after him up until he stepped down, they were always leaking things to the newspapers to put pressure on him, and he wen to jail and was put through a vigorous public spectacle when he testified. The FBI thing is a myth, they went after the Mafia hard after Appalachia, and other agencies like the Internal Revenue Service and the Federal Bureau of Narcotics were all over the Mafia on a consistent basis.


The problem is some people have a knee-jerk reaction to any evidence or talk of a Mafia member being strong, and feel the need to jump right in and say they are all informers, cowards, weaklings, or stupid. SO they jump right in with such nonsense as 'He had to give people up"

He was locked up by the fake testimony of a Puerto Rican small timer, who got a deal from the FBN, so what are you talking about?

I'm sure the list of high level mob rats that we don't know about would surprise us and that there were a lot more than revealed, but 50% is way too high. Also, considering the era they were alive in, we can't dismiss Frank Costello and Carlo Gambino outright as rats just because they were successful. Law enforcement was all over them in the later part of their careers and Costello even had to do some prison time. Now they may have ratted rivals out in their path to the top before they became a major law enforcement target like we know Luciano did, but there is no evidence.

There is a whole section of articles written about mob guys providing info to the feds called The Rat Trap. You can find it at www.onewal.com, Tom Hunt's American Mafia site. Two or three were bosses and like one poster said it isn't a black and white issue. Just like families are not black and white as a chart would make it out to be. No two situations are the same....kicking up a certain percentage is not set in stone, there's not a family that's easiest to get made into, there's not an average yearly income for soldiers etc etc. People act like they know everything about the Mafia based off one informant or indictment when it's an ever changing situation.

@MightyDR

When Costello got out of jail he told the press all he wanted to do was go on a vacation to Hot Springs and then they could do whatever they wanted to with him.

Luciano received a 40 year sentence and was doing his time like a man till his friends cut. deal to get him out, Gambino was harassed constantly after Valachi testified, and they even leaked. taped conversation between him and his wife to harass him in the newspapers. They treat rats different. Greg Scarpa was given immunity to do as he pleased for many years, same for Whitey Bulger. The rats are never pressured publicly or privately, unless they stop giving info. If Gambino or Costello gave "Tidbits" as a few like to try to get others to believe, they would have way more demanded of them to keep them out of prison. Underobess would go away, and in the old day a few small pieces of info would have never sufficed. The fact is the Mafia thrived for one main reason: No rats till Scarpa. Anastasia's brother is sad to have gave info after his brother was killed, but how true is that, and who dis the actually give up? Answer: No one.

AFAIK, there are no examples of a rat giving a tiny tidbit of information to L.E. that resulted in an actual sentence reduction. Which was what OakasFan was implying. The fact of the matter is, in order to get a proper sentence reduction for heinous crimes the feds are going to demand a) that the informer in question goes public and opens himself up to testify against people, and b) give substantial information that can actually be used to at least obtain warrants for wiretaps, bugs, surveillance, or searches, or information that points the feds in a direction for an arrest.

The notion that a mobster can do a one-off drop of minor-level information in order to get a reduced sentence is bullshit. Frank 'Frankie Blue Eyes' Sparaco was an FBI informer during the war, and regularly provided substantial information. Yet he was still given a 24-year sentence for the Michael Devine murder, since he refused to take the stand and come out as an informer. Do you see what I'm saying, Oak? The feds hold the chips here, not the mobsters. You seem to be under the impression that all a mobster needs to do to knock a few years of his sentence or get the feds off his back is drop some minor, unindictable tidbits of information against his friends. No federal agent is going to go out of his way to request a reduced sentence for such lousy "informant" use and a judge would be foolish to agree to it anyways. Feds play hardball. That's why mobsters are forced to leave the life and take the stand. That's why mobsters have to give up serious information in order for federal agents to keep them on. That's why Frankie Sparaco still got a 24-year sentence despite years of cooperation.

No snitches till Scarpa?

Really?

There were atleast 2 snitches in Morello's family and I'm talking like 1900s.

There have always been snitches, from day one. Y'all can argue till your blue in the face but the fact is there have been snitches from the very beginning of the mob.

Read The Rat Trap articles. Read The Informer article by faithful1(and 2 other co-authors) about the early days of the New York Mafia. Read The Barrel Murder by William Flynn. Read The First Family by Mike Dash.

Argue the specifics of what constitutes being a snitch all day long but the facts remain.

Article about Sparaco: https://www.ozy.com/flashback/the-inside-story-of-frankie-blue-eyes-the-mob-killer-turned-rat/79914.

His son was a corrupt legislator who got jail time for election fraud.

When I said Luciano did, I was referring to his early days when he ratted out fellow dope dealers.

https://www.nytimes.com/1936/06/04/...-crimes-sold-narcotics-and-perjured.html

"Lucania admitted that as a youth he had sold narcotics and that once he had given Federal agents here information that led to the seizure of a trunkful of narcotics"

In Raab's "Five Families", he tells how this helped him evade arrest.

Faithful1 wrote an amazing article on Luciana for Informer magazine. It broke down the myths of Luciana and the inaccuracies of The Last Testament. He goes into detail about this early episode involving the providing of said information.

The guy who does the comic books, his first name is Chris but I can't remember his last name but he also wrote a good non hyped only facts book about Lucky.