The unions were declared mob-free in 2006. Since then there has been no allegations of mob activity in the unions.
Also, unless someone can prove me wrong, the Buffalo mafia was never big in the drug business and never got close to controlling it.
"It's not that the mob wasn't involved in drugs," says one former law enforcement official. "It's just that it never bothered to try to control it." - http://buffalonews.com/2002/09/13/as-nicoletti-saga-resumes-new-charges-of-bookmaking/



They are further and further apart, but still extraordinarily more frequent than Buffalo. And (compared to Buffalo) there are still a shitton of beatings and assaults that happen via the mob in NY and elsewhere.



If wiseguys in Buffalo are under law enforcement scrutiny like you say they are, yet there is still violence going on in the streets on behalf of the mob, there would be busts. It's as simple as that. It's simply not possible for LE to be so inept that they are thoroughly surveilling and investigating mobsters involved in regular violence or extortion, yet they haven't made a bust in 15+ years. That is not speculation, that's logic.



Well give me some evidence otherwise. Oh wait... there is none.



MC clubs are a different ballgame. The Mafia is a money-making enterprise at its heart of which certain friendships, connections and cultures arise. The Hells Angels are an enterprise based on comradere and friendship between criminals, and the youths of the organization join it for companionship (in my opinion). Money-making comes as a byproduct of all this.

Cohen was a cash cow for Nicoletti Jr. When Brian was arrested with Lucchese members, Sonny lost a lot. His sports book was more like 25 million, and he only received about 1 million a year. Still money there, but casinos and legal gambling have significantly cut the mobs revenue.

Bifulco is doing pretty good for himself, not flashy, but seems to have a large amount of cash on him. He is a gambler like half of New York wiseguys, but not a degenerate gambler.

Carcone sports book took a hit, but still manages, not like it use to be, but he gets by.

Ciminelli? Are you talking about Criminisi? Ralph and the Pugliese brothers, Joe and Anthony have slot machines in some areas, and used another associate to get some of their machines in Seneca Falls Resort when they made room for more slot machines. Criminisi does not have a sports book, but Joe Pugliese does that make about 10 million a year, which he takes in a quarter to half a million a year. Their brother Pat Pugliese is inactive and has been since the mid 2000's. Someone mentioned that Criminisi is involved with a chop-shop which is hard to believe, but a cousin and associate to the Pugliese boasts cars, so there maybe something there.

Anyone can really rip apart anything that someone else posts.

1) The media gets shit wrong often.
2) The media has been known to FLUFF stories to sell.
3) The FBI gets shit wrong often.
4) The FBI manipulate's stories for their own agendas.
5) The same thing with D.A. they pad indictments.
6) C.I. aren't always truthful
7) Alot of guys that flip tell stories how they WANT to remember them.


Based on the above couldn't anyone pick apart just about any post?

My point is alot of this is Speculation and Opinion which isn't right or wrong....

Nick

I am at a loss what are the rules for acceptable proof?

Obiviolsy Giacomo knows some of these guys and he is posting some of his knowledge

How would he prove that?

If he is going to be challenged in that manner why would he bother posting?

@ Giacomo, no I meant Ciminelli, owns the construction company that got a shit load of state funding from the Buffalo Billion and was once a member of the 210 board. Best friends with Todaro at one point

Its not that law enforcement is inept Nick, its that its not a priority and not everything gets busted or published. You know nothing about Buffalo or know anyone from here but you act like because things are under the radar they mist fit your narrative that they are not active. Your articles you posted can easily be interpreted differently and law enforcement can easily be at a different point in crime fighting in Buffalo. Cops here are friends with members, are involved in crime themselves and corrupt prone, just like everywhere else.

well, if someone declares that the unions are corrupt free it must be 100% accurate, thanks for clearing that up

And now your telling us the same principles that apply to younger generations joining the Hells Angels dont apply to younger generations joining the Mafia? Nicky, this is very speculative, is this based on your first hand knowledge and counseling sessions with younger members of both the Hells Angels and the Mafia?

The Fed's have hard on's for big names like the 5 families, or philly because the boss and half his guys dont know what a low profile means. Buffalo is more like the Canadian clans than the American lcn, because they probably learned alot from each other. How often do Canadians wiseguys get busted? Not really too often, especially quiet guys like the sicilians in the GTA. And only till recently have we heard anything from guys like the violis or the musitanos, who are active, but there was barely info on them for years and years, only rumors and little things.

Giacomo, do you know the name of Bobby Panaros place he opened for a while? Was it just Panaros?

Sounds good guys. The FBI, Buffalo News, Niagara Falls Reporter. global news outlets, and the Laborers Union of North America don't know what they're talking about. Let's go with some guy on the forums who knows the inner workings of the crime family as well as the rackets going on and whose being made - because, wait for it, he lives in the area.....

Apparently law enforcement has actively been investigating and surveilling the Buffalo mob, and they know about the administration, the goings on in Canada, the rackets they're involved in, and who is being made. Wow, it seems like the police have a good impression of the illegal activities and crimes that the Todaro crime family is into. I'm sure they'll be making heaps of busts..... except, for the past 15 years there hasn't been a single bust. Also, even though law enforcement is actively surveilling and investigating the Todaro family, they have repeatedly said there is nothing left of the mob - and I mean repeatedly... that seems pretty strange.

Oh well, I'm sure Rooster has a valuable explanation to why law enforcement would feed misinformation to the press. Maybe it's a top secret investigation that is 15 years in the making? Well, the only flaw in that plan is the fact that Rooster claims everyone in the area knows about the existence of the Buffalo mob. Apparently it's an open secret. Everybody in the community knows about the Buffalo mob, apart from newsmen from the area - whose job it is to know what's going on in the community. Let's look at a brief, off-the-top of my head list of who believes the Buffalo mob exists, and who doesn't.

Who Believes It Exists:
Rooster, an alleged Buffalo native.
Giacomo Vacari, a guy from LA who has admitted lying in the past.

Who Doesn't Believe It Exists Anymore:
Ronald M. Fino, a longtime FBI informer against the Buffalo mob .
Scott M. Deitche, a prominent mob historian with six (and counting) books to his name.
Lee Coppola, a former federal prosecutor and news reporter who grew up among mobsters and their families on Buffalo's West Side.
Frank J. Clark, a former Erie County District Attorney
Andrew Goralski, a former Buffalo FBI agent who retired in 2007 after witnessing the death of the Buffalo mob.
Mike Hudson, a news reporter who had covered the Buffalo Mafia for about 15 years.
Dan Herbeck, a news reporter for the Buffalo News.


But some posters on this forum chose to believe Rooster and Giacomo, who have less than a sliver of evidence, over the mountain of prominent, high-ranking people I just mentioned. It boggles my brain.
But wait. As Bensonhurst pointed out, maybe the FBI, the DA and the news are mis-reporting the situation for their own twisted agenda. Except, here's the thing. The FBI has repeatedly complained they are not getting enough funding to fight organized crime, and have repeatedly reported that the mob is growing in strength (as a bid to get more federal funding). So the feds have no reason to lie and say that the Buffalo mafia is dead when it really isn't. Their agenda would be to say the Buffalo mafia is still around, and is prominent. In 1998, when the Buffalo mafia was reported as withering away and on its last legs, the feds still maintained there was a viable threat. So it's completely backwards to say that the feds are going to lie about the Buffalo mafia being dead when it's really active. The same also goes for the DA, whom Bensonhurst said could also have an agenda.
Also, newsmen LOVE a good Mafia piece. Mafia articles read and sell like wildfire. So there is really no reason for newsmen to try and say the Buffalo mob is dead when it isn't. And bear in mind that Rooster said the Buffalo community is well aware of the Mafia's existence. Surely then the Buffalo News and Niagara Falls Reporter would jump on the chance to report about it?
The notion that feds, police, DA, and news reporters all have a synchronized agenda to lie about the existence of the Buffalo mob is simply ridiculous.


According to Rooster, law enforcement is actively surveilling and investigating them but are also consistently denying the Buffalo mob's existance for no reason whatsoever, since such denials would hurt any chances of them increasing federal funding for organized crime, and would also hurt any federal case they are building. Also, I don't care what city in America you're from, Mafia families simply do not have the power or money to pay off a police force. Sure crime family members might be friends with a cop or two, but the Buffalo mob wasn't able to stop law enforcement in the 80s, 90s, and early 00s, and they certainly wouldn't be able to stop them at their diminished state now.

Man, Nicky from Tampa, you really got mad on that last post, you going to be ok?

Guys, believe what he says, it will make him feel better and in the meantime do not form your own opinions or think contrary to law enforcement or news reporters who are never wrong.

I believe you now Nicky, I cant believe Ive been misled for so long, I feel embarrassed

Nick,

I don't know what to say.

You are choosing to take my posts out of context.

I have asked you direct questions that you have not responded to.

i am trying to better understand your position.

In my opinion there is no right or wrong just a perspective and/or opinion.

Where have I suggested everyone was in on a conspiracy to hide something?

In an attempt to learn the law of land I asked if something was written in the media in eyes of the board is that now fact?
I am just curious? And would like to know.

At the same time I was pointing out that if that is the case that theory is somewhat flawed.

I gave specific examples of when the media were just wrong in what.they wrote and/ or when the published information from the Gov't that was wrong.

Two quick examples are:

1) The Bonnanos being dead.
2) The actual existence of the mafia in general.by Hoover.

Ok so what I am doing here? I am saying that POSSIBLY the the Gov't and the media could have prematurely reported that Buffalo LCN was completely dead.

Again because they have gotten it wrong in the past.

I did NOT say they got it wrong only that MAYBE they did.

Yes that would be me speculating
And by you saying 100% they are dead would be you speculating

What makes you right and me wrong?

Why are you dismissing Rooster? As if he is lying?

Rooster,

Does Buffalo have a little Italy section?

Nicky, look at Chicago, they are still active and how many busts come out from there, once in a blue moon. Lots of self proclaimed mob experts have no clue what's going on. I live in the GTA, where there's lots of stuff going on, it's one of biggest mob hotspots outside of Italy, and some people here don't even know what the mafia is, even though there's killings all the time in the news. You have to talk to the right people and be in the right places to know anything. Whatever you believe is your business, doesn't affect me.

Hertel Avenue in north buffalo is basically little Italy there's a good amount of Italian restaurants and businesses.

In Buffalo? No, I only know of Good Fellows in Las Vegas, and a partnership with Pieri in some restraunt in Las Vegas as silent partners.

Buffalo has two little Italy's, depending on who you talk to. The Old Little Italy on Canal St in West Buffalo, not there anymore, and the Little Italy on Hertel Ave in North Buffalo, were they have the festival. I was told that the food festival moved to the Harbor. The suburbs still traditionally leaves food out for the hungry in the first week of August.

Nicky, I have been to Los Angeles but not from there.

So all three of you guys are from the Buffalo area?

Rooster
Giacomo
Moscone

I spoke to the owner of the About the mafia site
And asked him about the source from the article and he said the source was not reliable however, because some people were talking about it he used it in the post.

It would be hard to imagine they have 50 made guys and whatever amount of associates that would come.with 50 made guys and they could stay under the radar for a decade...

That would be way too hard

Other than that he felt right now maybe there is more there than was originally thought of
Probably something going on in Canada

He said no way are they what they were
And he also felt that they are not functioning as a family bases on what he knows today..

He also yes the guys that are left alot are active presently.

Don't believe explicitly what I say, but believe the facts.
Rooster, my problem with you is not that you have your own opinions. My problem with you is that you state your alleged information as fact, even though you've got absolutely nothing to back up what you say. For example, in your first post on this thread, you said that people that don't believe Buffalo has an active mafia family are "delusional," even though there is not a single credible source that points to Buffalo being active. There is plenty of evidence that Buffalo is not active, and no credible evidence that it is. You belittle people that disagree with your unfounded, disproven theory that Buffalo is still an active crime family. That's what frustrates me.
If people seriously believe Rooster is qualified to talk about the inner workings, the structure, the rackets, and the making ceremonies of a family that is confirmed by law enforcement to be inactive, just because he claims to be "from the area," then the bar is set incredibly low.

If you really think your alleged city-cop buddies aren't misleading you by telling you Buffalo is active and what rackets they're into, tell them to make a bust already after over 15 years of quiet.


Sorry, I'm sure you know this thread moves a mile a minute. Let me know what questions you've got and I'll try and answer them.

If you have an opinion or theory, that's fine. I am not dismissing your right to post your theories and speculations, but I don't think you should get offended when I reply with a counter-theory.


It was a reply to this post of yours below:
"Anyone can really rip apart anything that someone else posts.

1) The media gets shit wrong often.
2) The media has been known to FLUFF stories to sell.
3) The FBI gets shit wrong often.
4) The FBI manipulate's stories for their own agendas.
5) The same thing with D.A. they pad indictments.
6) C.I. aren't always truthful
7) Alot of guys that flip tell stories how they WANT to remember them.


Based on the above couldn't anyone pick apart just about any post?

My point is alot of this is Speculation and Opinion which isn't right or wrong...."
- Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you're suggesting that there is a chance that everybody happened to get it wrong. You're right, the media can get things wrong. But in the articles I have cited and posted, the media specifically referenced multiple prominent sources from both sides of the law. You're right, the media can fluff stories to sell. But, if that was the case in this scenario, surely they'd be trying to sell the possibility that the Mafia is still active in Buffalo? Surely, that would be a far more interesting narrative than listing off the things with killed the Mafia. If a prominent newspaper suggested that the Mafia in Buffalo still had the potential to be alive and kicking, wouldn't that story sell better? You are also right that the FBI gets shit wrong often, as well as manipulating stories for their own agendas. But the thing is, the FBI Organized Crime Task Force in Buffalo (or whatever its official name is) is always trying to secure more funding for themselves. Their agenda would be to try and identity as many potential OC threats as they can, so they can secure more funding from Washington. Your post about DA, and how they pad indictments, is true but the thing you need to understand is that there have been no indictments since 03, and even then that was a petty arson thing with Bifulco.


If there was one or two news stories saying that the Buffalo mob is dead, I would expect that there would be some reasonable doubt over accuracy. But this is law enforcement confirmed, DA-confirmed, prosecutor-confirmed mob expert-confirmed news that is being consistently reported that the Buffalo Mafia is dead as a doorknob.
Also, on the flipside, what makes anything Rooster says "fact." He has no proven track record and nothing he says has been proven right.


When you say the Bonannos are dead, do you mean that their squad was disbanded after they were kicked of the Commission? Because I don't think anyone said they were completely dead, they were just a lot less of a nationwide threat because they were not part of the national racketeering conspiracy "Commission."
Also, the Hoover thing was 60 years ago. Hoover was the undisputed top dog of the relatively loose FBI, that wasn't really supervised to the extent they are now. Times have changed, it's an information age. Hoover denied the existance of the Mafia because it was too difficult to try and prosecute them, he preferred going after bank robbers and the like. Occasionally, the Mafia coincided with Hoover's goals, such as how Hoover had a "hard-on" for Colombo capo Sonny Franzese and his bank robbery crew. But today, the FBI wouldn't be able to deny such a large nationwide conspiracy like it could back then, and I doubt that if there was a Buffalo mafia that was corrupting unions and exerting influence across the city, I doubt the FBI could deny something like that without raising questions.

Your speculation is not wrong, per se. You are right, there is no way an opinion or speculation can be outright wrong. In the case of you saying that perhaps LE and the press are wrong, I offered a counter-argument. I don't think it's right for you to get offended by that.
But I am not really speculating when I say the Buffalo mafia is dead, because that has been backed up time and time again for over 15 years. When I offer reasons and opinions why young people might not want to join "the life" in Buffalo, then I am speculating, and I think I made that clear.

I think I probably covered this in one of my above comments but, to reiterate, I am dismissing Rooster because I don't believe that some internet poster that claims to be in the know is more credible than the FBI, state police, district attorneys, other prosecutors, mob historians/experts, and former mafiosi-turned-informer. There are some glaring discrepancies in Rooster's story that I personally don't believe he has really been able to address. He claims that mafia in Buffalo are, today, being constantly surveilled and are under investigation. However, multiple law enforcement officials have said the complete opposite, as well as District Attorneys and federal prosecutors. Also, when I asked him why the Buffalo mob had not been busted in over 15 years, despite the fact that the family is (according to him) under surveillance/investigation, he brushed it off as "you don't know how this city works." It's not rocket science. When law enforcement investigate a racketeering conspiracy, there is usually a bust within five years. And, if Rooster is to be believed, we can expect that there are multiple investigations over the last 15 years. Somehow none of them yielded any arrests.



There have been multiple busts in the past 5 years, and the FBI have recently made a pledge to begin cracking down on the Chicago Outfiit even harder. Rudy Fratto, Sammy Galioto, Pudgy Matassa. There are fewer busts in CHicago than in New York, but that is because of sheer numbers. Chicago has far, far less members than any of the five families. The DeCavs are similar, although they probably have more made members. The DeCavs are of course active but they get busted about as much, if not less, than Chicago.


[/quote]
My bad, people have mentioned you are from LA if I recall correctly.

About the Mafia is a good website, and a good place to get Mafia news. I'm glad he was upfront with you and admitted his source might not have been accurate. I pretty much agree with him - there could be something going on in Canada (I don't really believe there is but I wouldn't bet money on it), but there probably isn't much going on in Buffalo aside from loose remnants.

I alsonspole to the author Tom Hunt he wrote the book Dicarlo the first family.in Buffalo
Interesting

I had no idea Buffalo was big back in the day.

Maggidino was the boss of bosses at one time.

Glad I was part of this back and forth I read some cool info.

He also has about the same opinion

That the guys that were a part of it were/are career criminals for the most part
And they are more than likely robbing/stealing today...

As for operating as a family he does not think so.

So what officially makes a family defunct?

When they stop receuiting?

Recruiting

That is a very good question BH..

From what I've read the FBI considers a family defunct when they, for a considerable period of time, no longer have the required number of active made men to have a functioning structure/hierarchy and therefore are, for all intents and purposes, nothing more but a glorified crew.

Well, for many of the smaller families their books were closed by order of the commission and never reopened. So they didn't go defunct then and there, but by attrition they eventually died out.
I consider a family going defunct as when soldiers do not report to or kick up to a chain of command. If every soldier in the family is still active in gambling or loansharking or whatever, but operates completely independently and does not kick up to a capo or boss, then I consider that family defunct because the structure and chain of command is dead at that point.

Ok so even if they are not considered defunct when they stop recruiting
They will be defunct eventually with no new blood.

Exactly.

I have a big family and spent some time there. A poster made a comment earlier about GTA. I will add that GTA is the New York City in Canada, while Montreal is the Chicago of Canada. Hopefully that puts things in perspective.

@ Nicky, Bay Area California. These are the same people who accused of being another poster I am assuming. Well they can go **** their mothers and **** ******** while having **** **** coming out of their ******* ******* lips while having a ******* ******* **** smile.

What makes a family defunct is the federal and state budget. More money in terrorism than in Italian OC.

Thanks for clearing that up.



What families in the US do you think are currently active?