2 registered members (Ciment, 1 invisible),
295
guests, and 7
spiders. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums21
Topics42,361
Posts1,059,260
Members10,349
|
Most Online796 Jan 21st, 2020
|
|
|
Consigliere position
#920615
09/26/17 09:29 AM
09/26/17 09:29 AM
|
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 778 Castellammare del Golfo
Malandrino
OP
Underboss
|
OP
Underboss
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 778
Castellammare del Golfo
|
Do you think the consigliere position has lost a lot of its value, especially in the last 30 years or so? It used to be the consigliere was the one who was supposed to advise the boss, solve inter-family disputes, etc. Supposedly the consigliere should look legit, be able to mix with the politicians, judges, etc.. but I can't think of any occasion of that happening in the last 30, 40 years or so. It seems the consigliere is just the "number 3 man" and nothing more.
-Carmine Sessa, deeply involved in the Colombo was, going out on hits and eventually turning informant.
-John Gotti about Joe N. Gallo. The consigliere is supposed to be chosen by the majority of the capos, but John said he could as well drop every capo and put his friends temporarily as capos just so he can remove Joe N. Gallo, and then put back the old capos. So it's just a technicality. I don't think that's even done anymore. In Philly or other cities I don't think the boss cares about this and he just appoints the underboss and consigliere however and whoever he pleases.
During Phil Testa's reign Nick Scarfo was put as consigliere which is ridiculous. Not fit at all for such a position, very hot-headed and not really the voice of reason in the Philly family. When he became boss, Nick did not even want a consigliere. After Frank Monte got killed, the place was vacant for a long while until he decided to put his cousin Piccolo, who was semi-retired, and it's doubtful Nick consulted with him even once during his reign. Gaspipe Casso served as consigliere for a while, imagine that. So did Sammy Gravano, although I think he's a bit more fit for that role, compared to Gas. During Vic & Gas's reign I'm not sure the Luccheses even had an official consigliere after Christie Tic went away.
Is the consigliere's role basically lost nowadays? Is he nothing more than just the "number 3 man"?
-I shot him a coupla' times. -What's a couple? -Hmm, more than a couple... Really I don't know the exact amount, maybe I shot him 10 times, 12 times? -Maybe fifteen? -Hmm, it could've been fifteen...
-Anthony "Gaspipe" Casso
|
|
|
Re: Consigliere position
[Re: Jimmy_Two_Times]
#920630
09/26/17 12:54 PM
09/26/17 12:54 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,514 AZ
Turnbull
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,514
AZ
|
Since the Don is king, he can appoint whomever he wants as consigliere, and listen to whomever he wants, whether or not the guy is the consigliere. One of the tapes released during Gotti's last trial has him saying to Gravano, "You can be consigliere or underboss, whatever makes you feel better." Some say that Hugh (Apples) McIntosh, Persico's bodyguard, was more like his consigliere.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
|
|
|
Re: Consigliere position
[Re: Jimmy_Two_Times]
#920631
09/26/17 12:54 PM
09/26/17 12:54 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 165
Kash
Made Member
|
Made Member
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 165
|
Yeah I think there's evidence that this position is ceremonial and a way to reward long standing capos for their service and loyalty. Agree. Consig is probably largely ceremonial. How many current bosses you think actually take counsel anyway? I'm sure where it's used is more about an extra layer of insulation more than anything.
|
|
|
Re: Consigliere position
[Re: Malandrino]
#920690
09/26/17 10:55 PM
09/26/17 10:55 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 226
Ryan98366
BANNED
|
BANNED
Made Member
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 226
|
Good thread. I have wondered the same thing especially about Little Nicky. It seems like a political position to me. I feel the same way about underboss. Maybe you should pose the same question about the underboss title.
GangsterBB Snitches get stitches!
|
|
|
Re: Consigliere position
[Re: Malandrino]
#920950
10/01/17 06:16 AM
10/01/17 06:16 AM
|
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,653 Chicago
CabriniGreen
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,653
Chicago
|
I don't think it's ceremonial, it's political, and an indication of power in the family...
Like take Scarfo right? He was consigliere, but HE expected Testa to make him underboss. Like he was very miffed by this. So you gotta ask the question, why did Testa make Casella underboss? There had to have been some politics there.
What I suspect is even though he was close to Scarfo, Scarfos crew made the boss nervous. He was a little TOO autonomous, his crew was TOO loyal to HIM specifically. So I suspect Testa used the position in administration to kind of weaken Scarfos power in the family a little bit.
He was TOO powerful NOT to be in the administration. But I don't think Testa wanted him as number two, probably was grooming Salvie for it... Same deal with Scarfo and Harry. Harry's crew made Scarfo nervous about his own security, as these guys ONLY took their orders from Harry. Funny, I always thought Harry could have, or should have been made consigliere under Scarfo.
I think it's a function of mob politics. Has it ever struck any of you guys funny that Joe Adonis NEVER got an administration position? Like fuck that Pandolfo shit, WHO THE FUCK WAS COSTELLOS CONSIGLIERE? Was it Mike Miranda? Just this alone, I've always suspected Costello and Adonis didn't get along, that Lucky was the thing they had in common.
@ Ted
Spot On there......
Sal Vitale was underboss in name only. Gotti was an ACTING CAPO, technically, yet he was the natural successor to Dellacroces power, which was good for an administration position, plus he had his own crew to back it up.
The Bonnano old timers made a stink of Bill getting the consigliere spot, I think it definitely carried weight.
Vic Colletti of the Genovese had enough clout to win a sit down with Massino, and he TURNED DOWN a consigliere spot. So I think it STILL carries weight.
Bobby Manna, low key was almost as powerful as Chin it seemed. Same with Tino Fiamara, I think he was consigliere, but was a front runner for boss.
I agree with Ted I think it varies from family to family, and even from administration to administration....
Edit: I know it's just a TV show, but you guys remember the exchange between Tony and Johnny Sack right before the Feds hit?
Tony; " So meet his price, and be done with it....." Johnny; " I don't like it, he gonna want consigliere or who knows what...." Like he didn't want Phil TOO POWERFUL, too legitimate, even though this was his most trusted capo. He needed to be able to CONTROL the guy. He was perfectly willing to give him MONEY, or a piece of another racket, but MORE POWER? This made him a little nervous, just a visual example of the politics in play....
Very interesting thread.... Any more thoughts fellas??
Last edited by CabriniGreen; 10/01/17 06:30 AM.
|
|
|
Re: Consigliere position
[Re: CabriniGreen]
#920966
10/01/17 03:32 PM
10/01/17 03:32 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,734 Larry's Bar
Giacomo_Vacari
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,734
Larry's Bar
|
I don't think it's ceremonial, it's political, and an indication of power in the family...
Like take Scarfo right? He was consigliere, but HE expected Testa to make him underboss. Like he was very miffed by this. So you gotta ask the question, why did Testa make Casella underboss? There had to have been some politics there.
What I suspect is even though he was close to Scarfo, Scarfos crew made the boss nervous. He was a little TOO autonomous, his crew was TOO loyal to HIM specifically. So I suspect Testa used the position in administration to kind of weaken Scarfos power in the family a little bit.
He was TOO powerful NOT to be in the administration. But I don't think Testa wanted him as number two, probably was grooming Salvie for it... Same deal with Scarfo and Harry. Harry's crew made Scarfo nervous about his own security, as these guys ONLY took their orders from Harry. Funny, I always thought Harry could have, or should have been made consigliere under Scarfo.
I think it's a function of mob politics. Has it ever struck any of you guys funny that Joe Adonis NEVER got an administration position? Like fuck that Pandolfo shit, WHO THE FUCK WAS COSTELLOS CONSIGLIERE? Was it Mike Miranda? Just this alone, I've always suspected Costello and Adonis didn't get along, that Lucky was the thing they had in common.
@ Ted
Spot On there......
Sal Vitale was underboss in name only. Gotti was an ACTING CAPO, technically, yet he was the natural successor to Dellacroces power, which was good for an administration position, plus he had his own crew to back it up.
The Bonnano old timers made a stink of Bill getting the consigliere spot, I think it definitely carried weight.
Vic Colletti of the Genovese had enough clout to win a sit down with Massino, and he TURNED DOWN a consigliere spot. So I think it STILL carries weight.
Bobby Manna, low key was almost as powerful as Chin it seemed. Same with Tino Fiamara, I think he was consigliere, but was a front runner for boss.
I agree with Ted I think it varies from family to family, and even from administration to administration....
Edit: I know it's just a TV show, but you guys remember the exchange between Tony and Johnny Sack right before the Feds hit?
Tony; " So meet his price, and be done with it....." Johnny; " I don't like it, he gonna want consigliere or who knows what...." Like he didn't want Phil TOO POWERFUL, too legitimate, even though this was his most trusted capo. He needed to be able to CONTROL the guy. He was perfectly willing to give him MONEY, or a piece of another racket, but MORE POWER? This made him a little nervous, just a visual example of the politics in play....
Very interesting thread.... Any more thoughts fellas??
What about John Torrio being the Genovese Consigliere during Frank Costello reign?
"I have this Nightmare. I'm on 5th avenue watching the St. Patrick's Day parade and I have a coronary and nine thousand cops march happily over my body." Chief Sidney Green
|
|
|
|