I was wondering does anyone know the size of the Canadian crime families? Like the Luppinos, Rizzutos, Pappalias, Musitanos, and the past family of Cotroni? I would just like some info, as I have done a lot of research but I couldn't find anything. The only info I have really found said that the Rizzutos had 20 made men and 50 associates, but I don't know if that is true or not. So if you have any info, it would be much appreeciated.

Wikipedia says Rizzutos total manpower reached 500.I know that website isnt a reliable info source, but that figure i think is more likely to be close to the reality comparing with what you said.

A strength of 500 for a Canadian family seems a bit too much, I would say that could be an appropriate strength for an American family.

Rizzuto's have about 50-60 made members and 300-400 associates.

First of all, the Cotronis and Rizzuto weren't crime families. They formed what was known as the Montreal crew of the Bonannos, but it was functioning as a satellite group with its own hierarchy. This group consisted of approximately twenty made members. However, because they had a whole city to themselves they had a lot of associates and a large recruitement pool.

Agree sonny. The hells angels up there are pretty serious thou. I bet they help out there american counterparts to this day way more then lcn.

I gotta ask, if I showed you guys a Sicilian family with like, 20-30 members, would you consider them a crime family?

Also consider families in the past like SanJose, San Francisco, Denver, Dallas Ect...
Did any of em have more than 20-30 guys?
These families more resemble crews than anything, but were considered families. What exactly constitutes a family? Or cosche, or ndrine? What exactly makes em different?

That's all semantics in my opinion CG, but what I do know is that the Rizzuto organization was bigger, stronger and more wealthy than any of those families that you just mentioned.

@ Billy

But you gotta admit, it's a little ironic and funny right? We are talking about literal FAMILIES, blood relatives committing crimes and operating long term criminal enterprises here. Versus the LCN, who are really crooks, unrelated mostly, operating under the same criminal brand that they PAY to subscribe to.

The business model to me is similar to franchises like McDonalds, you pay for the right to utilize the brand, the marketing, the product line.
Mafia guys pay for the right to be able to "sue" in crime court with sit downs, and to use the criminal brand of "MAFIA". (Think Davie Betillo throwing Luciano's name round..) I see the made guy thing as a mechanism for privatizing criminal connections more than anything, but a lot of times this isn't even true, it's the individual who enhances the mafia with his connections, or earning potential, and they initiate him to get a piece.

Yes, you're right, I think that is why the 'Ndrangheta will always be very hard to infiltrate or to make members turn because the 'ndrine are crime families in the literal sense of the word. The sons get their education from the time they're 5 years old, so they are so indoctrinated by the time they are adults that it will be very difficult for them to cooperate with the government, also because they will hurt their immediate family members tremendously.

Until Massino flipped I agree. After that I consider Montreal their own family because they did act that way.

I think in terms of overall size they could be compared with a family like Philly. At their height in the early 2000s the Rizzutos had a set up an impressive and streamlined organization. At that point they were basically a Bonanno crew in name only, but ultimately they still answered to New York.



I see what you mean, but technically speaking I disagree. However, after Vitale and Massino flipped things started to fall apart both in New York and Montreal. I think by the time Montagna arrived in the city the crew was disfunctional. It's hard to imagine it's still existing today. Mafia protocol dictates it should, but recent events suggest otherwise. At this point it doesn't seem like the Bonannos care about Montreal anymore.

The Cotroni decina had about 20 made members, Nick Rizzuto was one of them.

@ Sonny

You seem pretty well read on the Bonnanos, how exactly did the relationship work between the Rizzutos and Bonnano leadership after Sciascia? Was there a Sciascia replacement? And did they kinda throw in with Gambino distributors, or no? The Gambinos and Bonnanos seem to kinda split the heroin market in NY, as far as LCN is concerned....

I always thought it strange that they would just abdicate the entire NY market. I assumed that's why Vito was so amiable to making deals with the Bikers and Street gangs, so as to maximize the profit potential outta Montreal.

It's why I try to pay attention to everything I read, I know guys have said he makes stuff up, but what Giacomo said about the Bonnanos and Gambinos being structurally tied to the Scilian clans, is there truth to any of that? It would explain why the Rizzutos would still be ultimately answerable to NY. Cause Sicily would factor in. It would also explain why they were so dismissive of Montagna, kinda.

What's your take, Ive found it kinda hard to map out....

Vitale and Urso were sent to Montreal by Massino in 2001 to familiarize themselves after the death of Sciascia. The objective of that meeting was to name Vito Rizzuto the new capo. Vitale was received with respect and introduced to other members such as Joe Di Maulo. Rizzuto however politely declined Vitale's offer because he didn't want the responsibility even though he was already de facto head of the crew and the Montreal Mafia as a whole. As capo he would've been obligated to regurarly travel to New York and rapport to Massino so there wasn't much to gain for him by accepting that title. Another possible reason why he declined is that he may have developed a grudge towards Massino, who he held responsible for killing Sciascia. I think because of his status and the amount of respect he wielded he was able to decline the offer without facing repercussions. However, contact between the two groups remained, which is backed up by several sources. Daniel Renaud stated that Montagna was used as a messenger and regurarly traveled to Montreal before his deportation.

Thank you.

The made man and associate is also paying for the political and legal protection that being associated with the mafia USED TO bring. Yes the individual was a big earner, grossing million a year, but the Family had the judges, cops, senators, congressmen, lawyers, banks, and in many cases even the juries. I think you know this Cabrini.

Don't know about size , but back in the day everything came from the "north "if it did not come from the ports.
And it came quick" not like what Columbia or Mexico is donning it came quick from the north so there was always crews or families up there could of been crews or families from back in the Al Capone days , but always there.

The Rizzutos come in Canada from cattolica Eraclea in the 50s to control the heroin from Sicily to the us. Take control of Montreal kicking out the violi and the Calabrians in the 1970s.
His power was in a sort of federation between italian,biker and irish and black gangs for deal in drugs.
Niccolò and after his son Vito role on montreal but was a strange family more similar to the Outfit that to a sicilian crime family. Some say that the rizzuto fall because Vito made non italian and in sicilian doesn't accept this and killed joe bravo and the other guy. When vito was arrested and extradated in the us for the 3 capo murders in 1981, all the force first the Calabrians attacked and the war begin.

I think that with the time the rizzuto grow up by a single crew to a real family and the murder of Sciascia cuttted all the remaining ties.

For the exactly membership since nobody flip I say 50-60 made men not more and maybe 200 associates.

Let me ask some serious questions...

1. The twenty made guys; Do you guys consider WHO these guys are?

Are they like, 20 guys from Brooklyn, that got SENT up to Montreal?

Or were they 20 Sicilians who always operated up there and got "absorbed" into the family? And this is a serious question. This is why I ask...


First, if they got twenty loyal guys from NY up there, they are NEVER OUT OF THE LOOP, as far as what's going on up there. It's like, what these people didn't have phones?

Second, if Rizzuto was so insubordinate, they coulda reached out to just about ANY of these guys, made a meet with Rizzuto, and killed him. Just like in NY, that's how they get MOST of their guys. It's how they got to Demeo, Salvie Testa, even Cesare Bonaventre, the dangerous guys always get set up.

This seems like an imposibility for them at the time.

2. One of Paulo Violis greatest complaints, was that Nick Rizzuto was inflating his crew, with recruits from Sicily, but they weren't on record, while he was prohibited from making new guys. I think he even asked for ten new guys, and was turned down.

So, is that 20 made guy thing even A RELIABLE GUAGE OF THIER STRENGTH?

3. Let me ask, was the Montreal crew, family, whatever loyal to the Bonnano family as an organization, or were they loyal to, JOE BONNANO AND CARMINE GALANTE? First, and as time went on, did their relationship with the family morph to reflect their relative positions in the narcotics trade?



See a gambling, Shylock, labor union in NY, none of the Montreal guys EAT off that. They eat off the drug trade. Essentially what I'm saying, is that they had loyalty to Bonnano guys, that could facillate the drug trade, before any real loyalty to the FAMILY, per Se....

4. Why is it so hard to compare these groups to the drug cartels they are?

The axis of organized crime AS A WHOLE, right now, spins around narcotics. Look at the world, these are Narcotics syndicates, that invest in other crime operations, as the money comes in. Just like the porohibition gangs.

I keep saying it, there are NO OPIUM fields in NY, no Coca leaves in NY.

You can't tell me a mobster that has never left NY controls ANYTHING in the narcotics trade. It's ridiculous....

Since no one knowledgeable answered you yet Cabrini, I will make some educated guesses on a couple of your questions. I don't yet have the answers for the rest...



I would suppose that in some of the cases, some of the Sicilian Canadian crew Bonannos, if that is what they were, emigrated to Canada for the express purpose of forming that link in the chain. You position people around the world strategically.




I think during Joe Bonannos time, they operated for Joe Bonannos benefit. When Joe Bonanno was excomunicated and expelled, they then answered to whomever the Commission put in charge. When Carmine Galante came back into the picture, he took control of that crew again, probably partly on behalf of Joe Bonanno. When Carmine Galante was taken out, that crew should have been sending revenue to Rusty, but the three capos may or may not have gotten in the way. Rusty needed to gain control of that pipeline before the Commission would recognize him as a voting member. Theory mixed with fact here.





A better word than loyalty might be dependence. Since their drug trade was likely owned by Bonanno principals, they depended on those principals for credit/financing etc. For example, they couldn't expect narcotics to come into a Canadian harbor on consignment if the owners had not ironed out the deal with the offshore sources beforehand. The three capos appear to be the link between the Bonanno boss, and the Canadian crew. Whoever was their supervisor, whether Sciascia or Rizzuto, or whoever, reported to those captains.The captains received monies from the supervisor, and the sitting Bonanno boss depended on the captains to pay tribute from that. Theory.




Yes. That's why at the very top, through the drug trade, all organized crime groups can be seen as essentially one organization. It doesn't matter what race, color, or creed they are.



None in Sicily either, so far as I know.

Does anybody have a full list of everybody in the Montreal mob that was an inducted member of the Bonanno family?

There are no lists available but the most obvious ones are:

Vic Cotroni
Frank Cotroni
Nick Rizzuto
Vito Rizzuto
Paolo Renda
Domenico Arcuri
Agostino [BadWord]
Paolo Violi
Luigi Greco
Joe Di Maulo
Moreno Gallo
Rocco Sollecito
Frank Arcadi
Tony Volpato
Tony Vanelli
Joe Renda (identified by Vitale and nephew of Sciascia)

The Rizzutos I'm pretty sure sometime in the 90s didn't even really answer to NY anymore as they became,and were an independent family.There are many more members than what is known and documented and they were basically,Rizzutos were in direct contact with Sicily and members traveled back and forth and they had a lot of business dealings in Sicily and italy ! They basically looked at NY as a joke ! There are many crime families in Canada and many of the cities in Canada from Vancouver,British Columbia,to the eastern cities and provinces are totally dominated and infested by Italian OC of every kind.There are about 12-15 documented,alleged Ndrangheta cells,families containing anywhere from 12-30 members each,and there are many other Ndrangheta families,cells operating ! The Rizzutos also were not the only Sicilian family in operation.Another major faction,Family in operation were the caruana [BadWord] family who dominated the drug trade for half a century and who have family factions set up and in operation for 45 plus years in Venezuela ,Argentina,and Colombia ! The Rizzutos also had major rackets in many other industries as well as do many other Italian OC groups.The camorra also is a big player in Canada and supposedly has 7-8 Clans in Canada involved in Drug trafficking,kidnappings,robberies,weapons trafficking,Counterfeit money schemes,construction ,extortion etc.Some of the biggest Sports gambling operations the world has ever seen have been taken down over the last 10 years also,I think there was a recent bust of a 30 billion dollar a year Gambling book,I know one was called platinum sports book,There was also a billion dollar a year cigarette smuggling op bust ! But,There are a massive amount of Sicilian,calabrian,Neapolitan factions and families in operation in Canada.Recently there has also been activity by Sacra corona units and LA stidda members setting up operations and trying to get a foothold !

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Carmine Verduci — the man who exposed Mafia’s ‘Canadian cell’ — was gunned down near Toronto yesterday

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Adrian Humphreys
Friday, Apr. 25, 2014


The scene of Carmine Verduci's murder outside Regina Sports Café in Woodbridge Thursday.


National PostCarmine Verduci, 57, was shot several times outside Regina Sports Café in Woodbridge.
The man shot and killed Thursday outside a cafe north of Toronto had the dubious underworld distinction of having accidentally alerted Italian police to the existence of a “Canadian cell” of the Mafia — about 40 mobsters who maintain close ties to colleagues in Italy.


Carmine Verduci, 56, was shot several times outside Regina Sports Café in Woodbridge. The gunman seemed to know what he was doing; police found the victim lying dead in the parking lot with no need for an ambulance.

Mr. Verduci’s downfall may be traced to Feb. 12, 2008, when Italian authorities noticed him in Italy at a meeting of the ’Ndrangheta, the formal name of the Mafia formed in the southern Italian region of Calabria. The presence of a Canadian there concerned authorities.


National PostVerduci was 57 years old.
An investigation showed he was the ’Ndrangheta’s transatlantic messenger: He “had the task of travelling between Italy and Canada, acting as a carrier of news between the Italian group and the Canadians,” prosecutors said.

Following him, wiretapping his cellphone and tracing emails, authorities linked at least 40 people who were either Canadian citizens or current or former residents of Canada.


After a two-year probe codenamed Operazione Crimini, prosecutors in Italy unveiled sweeping arrest warrants for several of the men in 2010 which alleged there were seven dominant mob families in the Toronto area, each with a boss who sits on an influential board of control. The indictment made the names of the alleged bosses public for the first time.

On March 8, 2011, the National Post spoke with Mr. Verduci after Italian authorities issued an arrest warrant for him for Mafia association. When his friends around him in a café heard him say he was not involved in organized crime, they thought it was hilarious and spontaneously burst out laughing and guffawing.

He turned to them and curtly told them to shut up. Everyone instantly did.

Continuing the brief interview, he said he was not involved with the Mafia, had never heard of the ’Ndrangheta before and was not at all a bad man.

“I don’t know anything about this,” he said ending the conversation. “Bye, bye, bye.”

The charge against him in Italy meant he could not return there without arrest but did not bring any move for his extradition because Mafia association in not a crime in Canada.

But now, investigators will consider whether the embarrassing and damaging report became a death sentence from fellow mobsters.

The 2,656-page prosecutors’ report from 2010 revealed the ’Ndrangheta’s operations here.

“In the city of Toronto there existed seven crime families whose members were mostly of Calabrian origin,” says the prosecutors’ report, which was translated from Italian by the National Post.


FilesVincenzo Tavernese of Thornhill, Ont., who was one of the men named in the Italian report on Canadian ties to the Mafia. The allegations against him have not been proven in court.
“Each of these seven families in Canada would be active in drug trafficking; extortion, only among members of the Italian community; gambling; and the making and marketing of forged material. Many of them have reinvested the illegally obtained money in businesses, including bars and restaurants, not only in downtown Toronto but especially in Woodbridge, which is the new Italian quarter.”

The mobsters in Canada “alternate between attending meetings, travelling between Canada and Calabria, and, when they can’t attend, are kept informed,” prosecutors said.

The Italian report alleged the seven families were run by Vincenzo Tavernese of Thornhill; Cosimo Figliomeni of Vaughan; Antonio Coluccio of Richmond Hill; Cosimo Commisso of Toronto; Angelino Figliomeni of Woodbridge; Vincenzo “Jimmy” DeMaria of Mississauga; and Domenic Ruso of Brampton. The allegations have not been proven in court.


National Post filesAntonio Coluccio, formerly of Richmond Hill, Ont., was named by Italian authorities as a leader of one of the seven dominant families of the 'Ndrangheta in the Toronto area.
At the time, Mr. Commisso told the Post that the report was inaccurate, saying: “It is offensive to me to think that I would do anything like that… I’m not even boss of my house. My wife is the boss of my house.”

Mr. Verduci was born in Italy’s Calabria region on May 12, 1959, but became a Canadian citizen.

A large, barrel-chested man, he owned several properties, including a new-build suburban house in Woodbridge and a ramshackle farm in Caledon.

He also owned several social clubs and cafés in the Toronto area, opening and closing them frequently, moving them around the area. Police suspect illegal gambling, not coffee, was his cafes’ lifeblood. Many were semi-private or members only.

Mr. Verduci’s favourite saying was “everything alright,” but spoken as a statement rather than a question, said a man who did work – of the legal type – for Mr. Verduci.

“He was just arrogant to people, like he was better than everybody. Like, ‘I am the boss and you do what I want,’” the man said, asking his name not be published. “Once you got to know him he could act differently and joke around a bit. But for most of the time he had to play the part.”

Mr. Verduci’s longevity in the mob is signified by a secret police intelligence report from 1990: “The Mafia persons on the rise within their ranks and will be the Mafia men of the 1990s are,” it summarized, and then placed Mr. Verduci in the sixth spot.

More recently, photographs of Mr. Verduci — described as a “known offender” — meeting with alleged mob boss Jimmy DeMaria on Oct. 2, 2008, were used at DeMaria’s parole hearing to justify placing tighter parole restrictions on him.

And in 2010, Mr. Verduci was named as one of eight men in Canada “known to be members of traditional organized crime groups” who were linked with Antonio Coluccio at Mr. Coluccio’s deportation hearing. (Mr. Coluccio was one of three brothers from Italy, accused of being major mobsters running an enormous drug network there.) This year, his name also came up at the deportation hearings for Carmelo Bruzzese, a man accused of being an important mob leader in Italy who had relocated to Canada with his Canadian wife.


National Post filesCarmine Verduci, 57, was shot several times outside Regina Sports Café in Woodbridge
If the unintended fallout from Mr. Verduci’s trips to Italy is not behind his slaying, investigators will likely investigate whether his death might be a part of the war between the mob’s Calabrian faction, based in Toronto, and the Sicilian faction in Montreal.

The Sicilian faction was led, until his death in December, by Vito Rizzuto. The Rizzuto family suffered heavy losses in recent years, some of them likely by Calabrian rivals, police believe. When Mr. Rizzuto was released from a U.S. prison in 2012, police and gangsters alike braced for his revenge but instead of an aggressive assault against the rival faction, he seemed to focus on purging disloyal elements within his own.

Police will want to know if Mr. Verduci’s murder could be a sign of the Sicilian faction’s reorganizing and lashing out.

Mr. Verduci was well-connected to a long list of important and influential mobsters, not just in Toronto but also in Hamilton and Thunder Bay, according to authorities in Canada and Italy.

His position within the Calabrian clans of Toronto would make him an attractive target to Sicilian rivals in Montreal looking to make a stand, a police source said.

“We might find it was meant as a message to the Calabrians from the Sicilians, that ‘this ain’t over, we haven’t forgotten.'”

If that scenario is true, then hope of peace after Mr. Rizzuto’s death seems unlikely.

York regional police are looking for a grey or silver Honda Civic or similar car seen by witnesses leaving the scene of Mr. Verduci’s murder. Police say two white men are suspects, one short with a slim build and wearing a black or grey hoodie and dark-coloured baggy pants. There is no further description of the second.

Investigators ask any witnesses to contact police or Crime Stoppers.

The Italian probe targeted the ’Ndrangheta as it has eclipsed Sicily’s Cosa Nostra as Italy’s most powerful and richest Mafia organization, dominating Europe’s drug trade.

The role of Canada is so pervasive within the ’Ndrangheta that when a mobster in Calabria speaks of “America,” he really means Canada, prosecutors said



(This column was published in the North Shore News on Mar. 22, 2000)

Crime family far from dead

By Leo Knight

A couple of weeks ago in this space, I told you the story of the arrest and conviction of the top echelon of the largest drug dealers in the world, the [BadWord]-Caruana crime family in Toronto.

At the time of that writing I wanted to celebrate what appeared to be a victory in the fight against organized crime. But alas, the information published in media reports of the plea bargain deal fell far short of telling the whole story.

The [BadWord]-Caruana crime family was headed by Alfonso Caruana, his brother Gerlando, and Augostino [BadWord], boyhood friends and the inheritors of their fathers' crime syndicate built in the small town of Siculiana in Sicily.

The current vestige of la famiglia arose from the ashes of a car bombing in Ciaculli, in 1963, which claimed the lives of seven police officers.

That's the genesis of these type of people -- cop killers. Granted, the intended target was some Mafiosi nobody named Salvatore Greco. The cops were an unfortunate byproduct of that hit.

The Italian government had decided that the murders were more than they could take. They ordered a purge of the known Mafia-types in the area, which drove the thugs to join relations elsewhere.

Since the '50s, Pasquale and Liborio [BadWord] and their pal Leonardo Caruana had fled Italian justice and became Canadian citizens despite their outstanding indictments on double homicide charges. Nice to know little has changed with another Liberal government 45 years later.

Other parts of the family, specifically Alfonso, his brother Gerlando and Augostino [BadWord], set their sights on Venezuela. From there they set up their criminal empire.

After making family alliances, through marriage, with Pablo Escobar, the supply line for the world's biggest cocaine ring was forged and with it, the Cali Cartel.

The families solidified their power and their networks by inter-marrying and assuring a long line of loyalty.

From Venezuela, the [BadWord]-Caruanas controlled much of the estimated $1 billion-plus cocaine trade emanating out of South America. They had the established networks and the Colombians had the coke. It was a marriage made in heaven.

In the interim, the [BadWord]-Caruana family, under the leadership of Alfonso, had firmly established a foothold in Canada. Alfonso moved to Canada, following the murder of Mafia capo, Paul Volpe, into a quiet suburb of Toronto, where he was to later claim he was a simple car-wash attendant. In reality, he controlled the largest drug dealing network in the world.

Italian newspapers described the [BadWord]-Caruana organization as the "Rothschilds of the Mafia." Some car wash attendant. It should also be noted that the Italian government had been trying to get Caruana extradited for years, but met with little co-operation from our government.

It was in this atmosphere, that they were considered untouchable by much of the world's law enforcement. Then the Mounties in Montreal got a break in an investigation into a courier that was to launch Project Omerta -- an international investigation into the top levels of the Rothschilds of the Mafia.

By mid-July 1998, following the seizure of 200 kilos of pure cocaine in Houston, Texas, warrants were issued for the main players, including Alfonso Caruana and his brother, Gerlando, the number two man in the family.

Unfortunately, police didn't get Augustino [BadWord]. Nor did they get a significant stash of cocaine at his coffee company in Montreal, said to be as much as four times the amount seized in Texas.

But, still, the news was good. Last month, after the plea-bargained sentences were announced, claims were made that the organization had been destroyed and the heads were effectively out of commission for a very long time.

The reality seems somewhat different.

Gerlando Caruana, the second in command of the family, was on parole at the time of his arrest in 1998. He'd been sentenced to 20 years for the same offences in 1986.

He was granted parole in the fall of 1996. The full term of the sentence expires in the year 2006.

Sources tell me that after three months of negotiation to arrive at the plea bargain, Gerlando Caruana was given a deal for an 18-year sentence, the same as his brother Alfonso.

The convictions were registered on charges of conspiracy to import cocaine and conspiracy to traffic in cocaine. The sentences were to run concurrently. Unfortunately, the judge was never asked to stipulate the sentences were to run consecutive to or as "stand alone" to the 1986 conviction.

In other words, because of the judicial omission, he was legally eligible for parole a year and a half before he was arrested on the new charges.

Since the convictions, the media in Toronto and Montreal have been serving up the pablum spoon-fed to them by spin doctors, saying the [BadWord]-Caruana family has been dealt a death blow, so to speak.

Well, it hasn't. One police officer specifically said to me "that's hogwash."

The family is now being run by Augustino [BadWord] and has barely missed a beat. The Rothschilds of the Mafia are still in business and would rank in the Fortune 500 were they legit. Gerlando Caruana, who may be considered eligible for parole by Corrections Canada, is still in custody largely because he hasn't asked for a parole hearing. Yet.

It is believed he'll wait six months or a year, so as not to attract unfavourable public attention on the sentence he received, not what was announced publicly.

When he gets out, he'll take control of the family from Augustino, the caretaker "Don."

The investigation to take these guys down cost over $8 million. The police did their job against huge odds and in the face of international naysayers. The Crown put the case together properly and forced plea bargains saving the huge cost of a trial. So what the hell happened?

Is it any wonder Antonio Nicasio, author of nine books on the Mafia, called Canada a "laboratory for organized crime."

-30-

Thanks a lot Sonny!!

The 20 made members doesn't include NY. The "20 member" remark Vito made to Vitale during that infamous meeting, was believed to be Vito giving Vitale simple lip service after the murder of Sciascia, but I've come to look at that number as being more accurate. So they were 20 made Canadians, not guys whom came down from NY, not the majority of them anyway.

Your welcome. I forgot to add Joe LoPresti, who served as a right-hand to Sciascia.

I also think that Montreal was responsible for its own inductions on behalf of the Bonannos.

I think to avoid the censor we may have to type out the name as C-u-n-t-r-e-r-a.