..their bosses.

In almost all or any criminal organization or organized crime group the captains and bosses of those organizations didn't have soldiers fight and die for their bosses. I like how the Mexican cartels soldiers basically die for their bosses and captains in street battles with the Mexican army. That's gangsta as shit, imagine minding your own business when suddenly you get a call to fight the Mexican army in the streets. You don't get to say goodbye to your family or nothing but you're ready for the mission to protect your captain or boss and die for them. These are what the cartel guys call "suicides" because they know they are going to die in their mission to protect their boss but are the most respected in the cartels because of their sacrifice. You have to respect that and their bravery

Nope. A child died saving his grandparent life is more respectable.

True but where did you get that story from. I meant respectable as in they aren't afraid of death like most people. You have to give them street credit for that. Every gangster in the world knows that reputation is everything. Without it they are nothing and may as well take a dick up their ass. I respect and are you with your message but you have to acknowledge the cartel's soldiers bravery. Most people aren't willing to die in a moment.

Why would I respect people dying on behalf of a drug organization? If anything, it's a sad waste of life.

There's a ton of crooks in our country that have the same type of loyalty and nobody batts an eye at them.

@ MightyHealthy
+100

Why would you like it? I find it very depressing.

They die for their bosses because if they don't then their families will be chopped up into little pieces. They don't give their lives to their bosses out of loyalty but out of fear.

SB, that's exactly what I wanted to write.

No honour among thieves.

Lol is this for real?

Really? I think its more to do with the fact that cartel bosses would mindlessly torture and slaughter their entire extended family. That's the reality.

EDIT: Didn't read the thread properly. Sonny Black's sentiments +1.

Not really. You have little knowledge about the Mexican Cartels. The reason they do this is because that's how it's the culture within the cartels. The brave live forever according to their songs. So the soldiers die in street battles with the Mexican army to try to rescue or impede the Mexican forces to capture their boss. This is unheard in any organized crime group I have read about.

What U.S street gangs goes into a shootout to rescue their crew boss or whatever. Many U.S street gangs aren't prepared to die for their bosses in a drop of a hat. What same type of loyalty are you talking about. All I see is snitches to get a lowerd sentence.

Take your pick since it's nearly any active street gang/mob. Back around 06 in Chicago, TVL & Breeds warring which resulted in many victims. During the back n forth shootings the police intercepted 2 New Breeda going on a hit and they died by gunning at the police. Leaders were giving orders in that conflict. There's plenty of numerous stories.

I'm not saying it hasn't happened before but it's not normal within U.S street gangs to do that. They usually just get arrested and some snitch and some not. Also U.S gangs don't have a structure like the cartels, most U.S gangs are just crews with no structure and the leader of the crew but that's about it. All I am saying it's not a common occurrence for street gangs to shootout it out with the police to defend their boss. In Mexico it's very common for the cartel soldiers to block highways, streets, and lay spikes to puncture the tires of the Mexican soldiers vehicles when they are about to capture someone captain or boss especially. It's an exception not a rule for U.S street gangs to shoot it out with the police to defend their boss. It very rarely happens.

Yeah and it's a good thing that it doesn't happen. If it happened in the US regularly it would be a sign that the society's culture has severely deteriorated.

Most street gang members in the US arent sucidial maniacs. Many of them are kids (OR were for sure a kid when they joined the gang)that despite their bad decisions would still like to be somewhere later in life. Some of their older homies would not expect them or encourage them to die for them. Atleast not in that way.. Which is actually a good thing.

Even if they did have that mentality, most of them wouldn't have the manpower to keep this up. Shooting at cops in the US brings on an unbelievable amount of heat on the gang. There's really no upside to it here.

That's a good point. No criminal group in the US is as big as the cartels in Mexico. It would be a short process indeed if they decided to shoot at cops or take on the army.

Some of those street gangs are structured but nonetheless it's a complete different situation over here then Mexico. I'm not going to say it's an exception because you still have areas where police know they could be ambush or going to a shootout . It occurs but not publicie like tha because it's usually short and it's not on the scale of course. My point is that there's always die hard loyal members that will engage police.

Just because there a few stories here and there about gangs members shooting at police doesn't mean it's a normal occurrence, it just so happens that criminals especially the cartels in Mexico have a more hardcore mentality and culture than U.S gangs. Most U.S gangs aren't suicidal maniacs like SoCal says. It's different countries where cultures are different and yes even criminal cultures are way different. I imagine most shootings with cops in the U.S are from patrol stops gone wrong where the criminal panics and shoot at the police. That is way different than criminals seeking out the police to murder them especially trying to rescue/defend their boss.

Sounds like an argument for prioritizing rehabilitation over incarceration.

Not really. It depends. Rehabilitation sounds good and all but it's very tricky.

I would argue that prevention is far more efficient in the long term.

Care to explain?

Do you have experience with rehabilitation of gang members (or attempts thereof) that you could explain in detail?

I'm not debating against you since we both understand the difference but reminding you that it's a normal incident. Think about how large the U.S gang population is and how many police shootings that happen each year. It's not that rare especially when you go back between the 60s-90s era. Black P Stones intentionally led a cop into an ambush in which he was killed . Supposedly it's a Stone "holiday " but i don't know it's true.

I'm going to leave this subject be now . You have your interest in Cartels.

@ smeary

I can't speak for today, but when I was coming up, growing up, you heard about guys shooting at police and paramedics on SIGHT, when you see this level of violence,, it's a sign that the legal authority is severely breaking down....here's a link you can check it out if you want...


https://youtu.be/uwHUSQI4FOM

Well, it depends what you mean by that exactly. Please explain to me how exactly this rehabilitation could or should work and why it would work.

Some people rehabilitate, some never will. It is pretty hard to know who is capable and who isn't, unless you know them them individually. Even then it is hard.

The problem I see is in how to actually successfully make it happen on a large scale. Yes I have seen it happen on a small scale, but there's a sample bias of individuals that seek help.

My concern would be with some sweeping attempt on a large scale, where it could be dangerous. Guys already in prison, career criminal types, will take advantage if they can to further their criminal activities. At this stage it becomes pretty difficult, although not impossible for everyone.

Just concerns I have. I'm open to any new ideas.

I do know gang members of all ages in life. I've seen plenty make it out and do relatively well, and many that of course don't. I'm more into prevention than anything else.

Do these guys go in to shootout with the police till the death or just warning shots. There is a big difference. I've seen this documentary before not impressed. Seemed like your average ghetto.

Well again man, I got a cousin who went to jail at 13 for BLAZING AT THE POLICE, this was something when I was coming up was a regular thing, that doc wasn't lying police were petrified of going there....
You make kinda weird threads, I don't really understand what exactly you are trying to say....

When there is a deterioration of authority, an abundance of poverty, a lack of legitimate alternatives, and an expansive black market, these things you mention are what usually happens, as far as criminal groups competing with the government. What I don't understand, I mean, people die for their gangs everyday, take 25-30 years for their gang everyday. But gang leaders usually aren't in control of borders where billions in merchandise are moved annually. If this was the case guys, if they were assured their families would be taken care of, would certainly Die for their gang, boss whatever, people die every day for nothing lol

Chris Coke in Jamaica, ton of power, took the whole government to take him down, same with Escobar in Colombia, Riina in Sicily, it's a repeating thing if you actually really study this stuff. I don't really get why you make it a racial thing, when really it's money and fear. Most of what you see is what happens when the government fails to establish a monopoly on the use of power. And this happens over and over in the poorest nations who are more vulnerable.

It's like when people compare street gangs to mafia families, kinda silly comparison. Why don't you look at other cartels to compare the Mexican cartels to, like the calabrians? Much more apt comparison, Imo..."

Also, I mean, I really wish people would do SOME KIND OF RESEARCH, or just stop saying silly shit like " gangs don't have structure". It's just like FACEPALM ALL DAY, just do some googles my man, lol you don't even have to take my word for it like good golly....
My man live in the Chi, a cartel city, they had Zambadas son in lockup in the loop, HE STRAIGHT UP SAID HE WAS A DEA INFORMANT and the government knew about it, how do you think El Mayo feels about that?

In fact, fuck this silly topic, I got real questions if you have the time and are willing to answer em. What exactly is the situation on the ground as far as the cartels are concerned. You are aware of what they are calling the Balkanization of the Cartels right? How they are fracturing into many smaller micro cartels, and becoming more of a local entity as opposed to intercontinental.What exactly I'sgoing on there right now, with Chapos mothers house getting shot up. Who ordered that? Rivals from within or without? Are he and El Mayo on the same page? Is Chapo in charge still, or are they transitioning to a successor. You mention their structure, if you feel like explaining it, I for one would love to hear it.
Are Chapos relatives major players? Are there emerging new bosses no one talks about? This stuff is WAAAAAY MORE INTERESTING than " I love the way their soldiers die", lol


I actually kinda believe you when you say a lot of it is in the culture, I've seen the reactions of many Mexican Americans when they talk of Chapo, he's the God of Mexico lol.but again it's not something unique to Mexico. I love the statement in the show Narcos, where the guy is like the people don't see Pablo as a drug dealer, they see a WINNER, I feel like you have a similar view on the cartels....

Prevention is difficult as they cut funding to schools, after school programs, sports programs, art programs, job training programs, affordable school and job training for parents, drug rehab and counseling for parents. If prevention is the goal, I can't see how eliminating these things help.

That's not the kind of prevention that works. Although I do think good therapy would be helpful for most people.

Prevention is much deeper than some government program that needs more and more funding.

Prevention would mean better parenting, peaceful and better childhoods, less traumatized people equals less violence and dysfunction later in life.

Fatherhood. Strong male role models maybe one of the most important factors. The feeling of belonging and being important to a social group.

Public education as it is today is also part of the problem. In my experience, public schools only help spread the problem of gangs and drug abuse. You don't learn much and it doesn't prepare you for making it on the market.

Doesn't need more funding, needs to be abolished completely. There needs to be a whole new paradigm shift.

Socal, I have to ask. Did you ever work with gangs? Counselor? Lawyer? Law enforcement? You know your stuff and seem highly educated.