pmac, I would have to disagree. When Vito was out of jail they were a well known power. The only time bodies start to drop is when the leaders were/are in jail or prison. They didn't even hit Rocco Sollecito until Stefano and Leonardo Rizzuto were behind bars. Same for these attacks.

I think Stefano lost a ton of power once his father died. Leonardo might be in trouble now unless he gets out with a good bit of power as well. We'll see soon enough.

Wrong. As Dixie said , these attempts happen when the leaders are in prison and the Sicilian clan is always in a state of weakness when the leaders are imprisoned. Its like they get knocked down by law enforcement and whomever their enemies are, they simply smell blood and attack when the clan is already in a weakened state. Of course this is typical of the mafia , however that doesn't take away from the power they seem to wield when their leaders are on the street .

I've stopped keeping track of all of this , tbh, after the Rocco Sollecito murder and the mandatory imprisonments of Frank Del Balso & Frank Arcadi. As I've taken an interest in NY matters between the 80's and early 00's. But things seem to be getting interesting again. Gonna be intriguing as to what comes next.

Agree to disagree. I just think theres more man power in the nyc families were no one would get firebombed on the regular like these last few years. Theyjust have to many guys. Even the small family like colombos they have 60made guys and probaly 100 sons n nephews who would be on the hunt for the guy doing this shit. The huge diffence in nyc not 1 boss have the balls to order hits on dumb shit and face the death penalty. Big paul chin or gotti were all before the federal death pen. Change in 1994. If any of there places got fire bombed and messges they probally have a boss meeting and send out crew from every family to kill the dudes.

Problem with Montreal is that there are a dozen or so factions consisting of a dozen or so guys and no unity.

Looking at the Canadian mob the last couple of years, my esteem for Vito Rizzuto, as a mob leader, got even bigger in retrospect.

All the factions in the underworld must've really feared and respected him, because during his tenure his word was law and he could keep all the factions in line. In my eyes he was the most effective and intelligent North American mob boss of the new millennium.

He was a very sharp guy. Well read and sophisticated. However, he was operating in a world filled with jealous neanderthals who wanted his spot. I think he knew it wasn't going to work out in the long run.

I think you could be right Ralphie, in a way his death was very anti-climatic because he was in the middle of his revenge expedition and it would've been very interesting to see what his reaction would've been to some of the events from the last couple of years.

Your problem is you keep comparing Montreal to NY , when you can't. It's apples to oranges , they're completely different animals , with their own settings , alliances , criminal groups , etc. Its not a fair comparison . One place ever got firebombed in NYC , it'd be called terrorism, the feds would be on their asses in no time. Some place gets firebombed in Montreal or Canada and the RCMP don't know where to start. Mob leaders arent killed in NYC , at all , because the current landscape, environment and culture wouldnt allow it, it has nothing to do with manpower or NYC families being stronger or more vicious than those in Canada or vice versa. Simply put, the feds will shut shit down quick. Stop with this whole NYC is smarter and more dangerous theory, because it isn't true. Maybe in the 70's and 80's these things would happen, not now. Whereas those mafia affiliated in Montreal are going about like its the First Mafia War in Sicily. This also has nothing to do with either side being more smarter or more dangerous than the other , its simply the lack of a RICO in Canada , and the laws on Organized Crime being a lot more lax over there than it is in the States.

Your 100percent right s club i was kinda just being a dick. I just think some board members over hype the montreal fAmily or whatever the fuck they are. Your right about the terrorism call deffirent worlds.nyc to montreal. What evers going on up there it isnt organized crime its more like who said 12 groups of 12 all fighting for a piece.

Maybe toronto a whole nother ball game.

I will say the vito revenge tour was pretty badass well he was alive. But i think the whole organized mafia died with him.

Toronto guys keep a low profile so they are not a high priority, but Montreal police make arrests all the time. They are even bugging law offices.

He was a real success as a human being and a mob boss. His father, his brother-in-law and his son all got killed on his watch. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy, I am sure that the Violis are laughing their asses off in Ontario.

Right JC but those who hit all 3 never would have done it had Massino NOT flipped. That's the only reason Vito took the plea and agreed to serve time in the U.S. If he could have served his time in Canada I don't think none of this gets kick started either. But as soon as he crossed the border the ones wanting to overthrow started their moves. Like Joe Bravo said about Vito being gone and said something to the like "once the boss is gone, the guys will play". Many overlooked Vito too like Joe Bravo who thought he had been with him long enough he thought he was ok but still spurned Vito's calls to Cuba and the DR and of course Vito sent word to Italy and before you knew it Joe Bravo is dead. Same for Moreno Gallo in Mexico.

I wouldn't expect any big hits for now after Sollecito was hit. Leonardo and Stefano are locked up, Desjardins is locked up, so it's a guess at this point as to who has been firebombing places up there. It's definitely going to get interesting if Rizzuto/Sollecito get off this case squeaky clean though.

@ Sinatra
+1 to that, been missing your post my man.........

@pmac & scorcese


Only thing I disagree with is that they come to NY for coke connects. I think they come to NY to organize shipments FROM THEIR CONNECT, to their distributors in Europe. I think y'all misunderstanding NYs place in the chain here.

Its the MID-POINT, for the Calabrians. Not the starting point (where they purchase) or the end point (where they get money, distributing). Take the Dominicans right? NY is the END-POINT for them. That's where they GET money distributing. It's 23-25 thou in NY for a key. What makes this work is that it's 10000 a key in the Dominican Republic. Same price in Mexico, or Costa Rica, basically the closer you can get to South America. So THATS where you need your people for a high level connect.

NY is going to be the starting ( purchasing point) for like high level retailers- mid level wholesalers.


That's one of the main reasons these bust were kinda weird. The Siderno group consortium gets coke in Colombia', ships it around the Pacific coast, THROUGH THE PANAMA CANAL, over the Atlantic to Europe. So not only did their coke never go to NY, it never even went OVER LAND. It went directly from Colombia TO the ports in Gioia Tauro and I guess the Port in Montreal? ( I can't remember if they ship it to Europe first, then send it to Montreal, or if it's the other way around...edit: I realized I kept saying Montreal when I meant Toronto, sorry bout that...) This fact that they could bypass the Mexican border, over land is a big reason why they have become what they are today.
(It's also why the Dominicans have what they have in NY, they have the Water equivalent of what the Mexicans have with their land border. But land will always be cheaper to send product over than having to charter a ship or plane, so until they start building walls, increasing the difficulty at the border, and pushing more of the volume through the Caribbean again, the Mexicans kinda will always have the upper hand there as far as being able to move larger BULK shipments. But the Dominicans, because they have " distribution centers", their own neighborhoods they can sell on corners, they have no real reason to go to outsiders really, they are regional, but vertically and horizontally integrated, so they can maximize profits, with these profits, eventually, some Dominican drug lord will organize his own boats or planes and then volume wise they will compete with the Mexicans and Italians...)




My rule of thumb used to be, coke from Colombia over land, To the US = Mexico. ( interestingly, except for the North East...) Coke from Colombia over water, To Europe = Calabrian. But Coke from Colombia, over water to the Dominican Republic, and from there over water, ( be it plane or boat..) to NY and the North East, = Dominican wholesalers/Colombian suppliers. Now, the Dominicans aren't global, they are regional. (This is why I put the Italians and Mexicans a SLIGHT rung above em, the more coke passes through the Caribbean, the narrower the gap is..)

The other weird part of the bust was the MEXICAN CARTEL NOT BASED ON THE BORDER, BUT IN COSTA RICA, CLOSER TO THE COKE. I can't get an understanding as to WHAT CARTEL this is exactly. Sinaloa or the Zetas. I keep reading the Zetas are basically finished, so it must be Sinaloa I guess? They are the only cartel left with global capabilities I think. I always used to connect the cartels to what part of the border they controlled. (Juarez, the Gulf, Tiajuana, Sinaloa produces the most drugs, also has produced the most bosses amongst ALL the cartels) But this cartels strength seems to be based on the fact that they can get cheap coke, AND get the coke to Europe because they had their own shipment service in place. So you have a Mexican cartel, NOT based on moving product across the border.

See I think the Caribbean route is actually faster, better, going back to the rum running days of Luciano and Lansky. It's why they wanted Cuba as the transshipment/ command center for Narcotics. It's more direct, I guess. Whereas the land route is more secure? ( Coke can't sink over land)


So this is rival families, setting up their own TRANSHIPMENT POINTS, all their connects seem to be based in South America, or at least Central America.

What do you guys think, any more thoughts?

Also @ pmac



Gang warfare is nothing like real warfare. Adding up the number of men doesn't tell the whole tale. Think back in Sammys book, the Gambinos had, whatever, twenty one -twenty-six crews right? Yet Sammy said when it came down to it, FIVE really mattered. Gottis crew, DeCiccos crew, Aurello crew, Gaggi- DeMeo, actually it might be four. If you woulda took a sheet of paper, drew a line down the middle, wrote Paul on one side, John on the other, and listed everything Paul had vs everything John had, on paper I'd bet you Paul wipes the fuckin floor with Gotti.


Like the Corleonesi. They had a death squad of maybe 14 guys. They never showed their faces until it was time to do a hit, then back to the shadows, you gotta understand the OLD WORLD WAYS.On paper, no way they win that war vs Bontade and Inzerillo. Or even think back to the castallamarese war. On paper, Maranzano SHOULDNT HAVE been able to beat Masseria. But Maranzano was a better guerrilla fighter/soldier.
Also having unidentifiable hitters is a big plus. I mean come on man, WE KNOW WHO THE MADE GUYS ARE. The Calabrians could find out more even easier, and their hitters would most likely be unknown to American wise-guys.


Now, having said all that, like Sinatra said it would never happen I the states. I don't even think you can take a City like NY, militarily. You know how you do it? With finances and resources. He who makes the most money, can buy the most guns, buy the most allies, gain the most power. So I think what they are talking about is a financial coup, more so than a military one...

The Violis undoubtedly had to have some gladness about what happened , but the family itself had jack shit to do with those murders in all likelihood , had Vito never been imprisoned and extradited. Odds are if Vito had to serve his sentence in a Canadian prison, like he initially was and wanted to, all three of those men would still be alive . Except maybe Nicolo Sr , but he'd of died of natural causes as an old man .


@ CabriniGreen , I've been lurking lol. And youre totally right about the crew thing, I hadnt even thought of that. I think Sammy even flat out said so in Underboss a couple of times , Paul had more guys than Gotti & Dellacroce , but the majority of Pauls guys and the crews loyal to him consisted of non-hitters and semi-retiree's . The only guys whom were a worry was the DeMeo crew. Good post.

cabrini green, just curious where you got that 23-25k/kilo number for NY?

Thanks for the education Cabrini. I have not studied up much on Canadian Cosa Nostra. It's hella interesting from the layman book reader point of view. International drug trafficking Euro-criminals with tons of money, exotic names, and narcissistic personality disorder galore. I have a question for you.

It is said that Aruba became the first [Cosa Nostra] Mafia state to exist when the Cun-trera and Caruana mafia families took over like 60% of the real estate there. Alfonso [Caruana], my namesake, became almost like the mafia king of Aruba, or at least part of it. What is your take on Aruba's role today, if you have any? I think money laundering took place there, and it just had to be a transit point for narcotics. What do you think is going on today? If you don't have an opinion on Aruba, that's ok too.

I think they've been, at least partly, been kicked out of Aruba. However, the Mafia still has a presence on these island that are part of the Dutch kingdom, notably curacao.

@rollingbones

Documentaries mostly, also a lot of reading. I've seen the 10000 a Ki number for Dominican Republic, Mexico and Costa Rica now. It's like 6000 or so in Venezuela and Brazil, maybe 2000 in Colombia and Peru.

That 23-25000 number I was low balling kinda. Scorsese mentioned that guys could just get coke in NY, so I figured it must be pretty cheap. I've also seen traffickers, in Chicago, the higher level guys can get it for close to 25, but this could be from a few years ago, in the other thread, about GDs, they got the guy on a wiretap saying he USEDto get it for 22, now it's 35. Again, that makes sense because there has been consolidation as far as who controls the borders, it's mostly only Sinaloa now so they can charge more if they want...


What do you think bones, is it more close to 30? 35? That would make sense, in the Decavalcante thread, they say they retail near 80 thou of a half Ki. I saw a doc on Dominican wholesalers saying they get it 10000 in The Dominican Republic, and sell for 23 in NY. I thought that was a little low, like not a big enough margin. But that could be the "Homie price" lol.

I disagree with your the premise, "had Vito never been imprisoned".
Same thing could be said with Paolo Violi who was also imprisoned when the Rizzuto clan made their moves. Frank Cotroni was also imprisoned.
The difference between now and then is that the Vic Cotroni was probably given orders by New York to stand down or he decided he had enough and decided to retire. The difference now is that they do not answer to New York and several capo's from the Cotroni clan decided to strike Rizzuto while he was vulnerable in jail. Furthermore in 2001 Paolo Gervasi wanted to revenge his son's death, he sent two contract killers ready to kill Vito and two of his associates and the attempt was foiled because of police intervention. Again someone could say things would have been different had they succeeded. I believe that fate sometimes plays a good part in determining events.
I also do not dismiss that fact that Ontario may have played a role to destabilize and eventually take control of the Montreal drug trade.

Alfa, hey whats up my man!!!!

I think Sonny pretty much summed up Aruba, but that clan is still, I think one of the top three or so clans in ITALIAN ORGANIZED CRIME in general. Anywhere. They really are like the Mafias Rothschilds..

Hey Cabrini, doing great. I appreciate you for responding even though I knew you would.

From what you and Sonny had said, it's sounding like an off shore tax haven money laundering situation somewhere out in those islands. Curacao is right next to Aruba. Thank you Sonny and Cabrini for making an attempt at answering my question.

What is surprising [to me] about the Caruana and Cun Trera mafia families is the level of sophistication.

Apparently the underworld trusted them a great deal because they had an airtight ship...blood ties. Alfonso married his niece...it doesn't get any tighter than that.

Then you read about how they dealt directly with the Corsican underworld as Cosa Nostra's middlemen. To me, Corsican underworld means L'Unione Corsa, something almost everyone knows practically nothing about. Fascinating.

The Corsicans are mysterious. Like Sicily they are an island off the mainland of France. Like many Sicilians, they don't seem to quite identify with the mainland. Linguistically, they appear to be partly French and partly Italian, at least as far as their given names go. And last but not least, they have a blackamoor head on their flag. The blackamoor head symbol is also supposedly a sign that one is a member of the Corsican Brotherhood or L'Unione Corsa. It might be worn as a watch fob or pendant.

With these groups, the Cun-treras, Caruanas, and Corsicans, I just can't see them gathering in social clubs or having weekly shape ups at a mob headquarters. Not street gangs.

Not really because Nicolo was already making moves before Violi was locked up. That was why he wanted to kill Nicolo but never go the ok to do so.

In Vito's case you didn't hear shit until he was locked up in Supermax.

For your information Nicolo Rizzuto started to make his moves only after he learned from the CECO commission tape recordings that Paolo Violi and Pietro Sciarra were discussing Nicolo's fate. This was in 1975 and Paolo Violi was imprisoned the same year. Prior to 1975 Nicolo was doing his own thing and wanted nothing to do with Paolo V. This is what sparked meetings with the Bonanno's.
In Vito's case, I do not understand what point your trying to make. I agree that he kept a tight ship and he was good at keeping the peace among all the different clans in Montreal but it wasn't with out incidence. I explained in the same message that he and Paolo Gervasi were feuding and that was well before Vito got arrested.

Arsonists set Montreal ablaze as deadly Mafia war continues
http://gangstersinc.ning.com/profiles/bl...a-war-continues

Breaking news:

Projet Machine: le Hells Angels Salvatore Cazzetta libéré de toute accusation

http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/justic...-accusation.php

I can hardly make anything out the translation. Has he been released? If so, why?

Renaud has updated his article, but the one to which I've linked below should answer your questions.

Alleged Hells Angels boss obtains stay of proceedings in contraband tobacco case

http://ctv.news/uXgtiJa