I'll say it again, what exactly is the argument? If they are a family at all' or if they are powerful?

Cause again, to me it's seems clear cut, they ARE a family, but not very powerful or big. However, they don't seem to need to be a Iarge sized family, I do see them as VERY capable...

We need a definition for " Viable Family", some sort of guidelines that takes the confusion out.


How about this, can we debate and come up with an acceptable agreement as to what constitues a viable family?




Let's use Philly vs Detroit, as they are in a similar situation, (state of decline)why would one consider Philly viable and vice versa? Why would they not be viable and vice versa, it just occurred to me this might need another thread, but ehh... Any thoughts?

Ivy this whole time i have said the Detroit mob is a gambling operation and hardly a big and powerful family. Not once have i said that. What i have argued is the family has a hierarchy and is viable and you said yourself there is a argument for both points


i competly disagree with you on scott and i dont understand where you got these dates for where scott got these made guys from maybe your right maybe i have not looked far enough and your right not everything he says is gospel truth anyone who is believes that is wrong (you could say that for all mob journalists) but i still personally and many others on this board enjoy his articles and we believe most of what he says. He has also written for gangland before and if capeci values his opinion then that must mean something

i respect your opinion on most of the mob familys but i disagree with you on scott and certain things in the Detroit mob


i have said my opinion we all have our own views

Ivy tho I defer to your research and knowledge I thinke you are overlooking the current status of Detroit itself as a reason why there havent been any mob cases and thus u claim theyre not a viable or powerful family.

So we agree Detroit is in ruins right? The local mob is likely #55 on the priority list of local and state law enforcement. The city declared bankruptcy, the police force was almost cut in half, and the major crimes they have focused on are violent street crime, homicides(not mob), rampant drug gangs, poverty, and unemployment twice the national average. You have to concede that the city and the state is focused on saving this important midwest city that was the symbol of the American industrial revolution right? Please dont come back with wheres my source for this bc I dont need one its been all over national news since 2010.

Also, prior to this mayor the last 5 were convicted corruption. Couple with that you have a local mafia that is way more tight knit than any other family in the US, more intermarried than any other and has only had 1 made member flip in 100 years.

Take all that into account and add that the family has a fully functioning admin w 3-4 crews and anywhere from 25-50 made members depending on who you believe. Adding all the major problems w a city that declared bankruptcy and far greater things to focus on than the local mafia and imo u have your reasons why their havent been any cases..NOT the family isnt active, viable, and powerful..

Sivio dante said it best certain aspects of show business and our thing have traditionally been recession proof. Look at history, the feds ignored the mob and allowed it to grow for 40 yrs while focusing on communism, bank robbers etc..why in a much smaller scale cant that be the case with the Detroit mafia?

Id like to hear yours or anyones response and please omit the wheres your source bullshit bc im an informed person that reads and everything I said is accurate...imo the detroit mob is quietly doing well bc theyre inter married tight knit, basically no rats to decimate the family, have a full admin, the city and state are allocating resources and attention to rebuilding the city and fighting street crimes (not mob) and whenever a geographic area is a in recessuon gambling and loan sharking increase thats economics, and the city is ripe with corruption always has been

Also- with the city rebuilding and federal and state money and private re-devlopment money coming brings excellent ways for the family to generate alotta income in construction, gsrbage, and unions..and they have capable earners in the legit world like their ub priziola(I think is his name) who sold his company for 50 mil, idc who u are thats brilliant business sense..

If theres only so much money, resources, public outcry to go around and this citys infrastructure was crumbling why isnt it entirely possible that the mob has been left alone (as evidenced by the lack of cases) and has been allowed to quietly flourish? I mean historically the Det fam was very respected and built into a power by Joe Uno and they never had a donnie brasco, commission case, family secret s or taped ceremony to cripple them? Imo since they've been left alone and they clearly have and other oc writers like Scott who know detroit say they have a viable fam w an admin and 3-4 crews then just bc they havent been indicted lately doesnt mean at all that theyre not strong and quietly powerful? U cannot ignore facts and common sense despite the lack of Detroit Free Press articles..

Again do not say source ivy or anyone just read what I wrote and based on all those factors, history, etc and tell me thats not a very probable reason for a lack of cases and the fact the family may well be doing quietly as good as any other fam outside NY? (Sorry for the long diatribe but imo no ones looked at the historical and real life economic reasons to explain lack of indictments, had to weigh in)

Ivy is the official FBI website wrong, the only sources I posted were the FBI. I thought the Feds get it right 99.8% of the time???

Ivy do you agree or disagree with the FBI .i just want a simple yes or no answer, please???

My thing when you say the Bonnanos make Detroit look like small time, I disagree wholeheartedly. To me, as far as how they operate, historical success, them being so tight knit and having legit stuff to fall back on, Detroit makes THEM look small time, like I say, I feel you base that off pure numbers... Now, before you bite off my head understand what I mean. Detroit is a fuckin ruin, NY dwarfs it, in every way, but especially in terms of the amount of business there. To me, half those Bonnano guys SHOULD be like a Chicago Tony by now, not meeting at a strip mall.It's almost like NY is so big these guys can afford to be lazy. See, these guys are making money by extracting it from the territory they control, or selling something you can hold in your hands; The time where the mob can just demand tribute is long past, they ain't even goin for that in Sicily anymore, so to me, what enterprises are they running? That's what I tend to look at first...

I will say this, the counting the number of made guys thing is not really a good method for determining the strength of the families. Mainly cause it can be deceptive. Not that it shouldn't be used,but not as the main criteria...

Furio made the observation that Detroit is organized like an ndrangheta family, astute observation. Blood ties, and control of Enterprises, not territory controlled by made men. I'd be willing to bet, not many people can give an accurate description of families organized like this. It's why we had the Rizzuto thread. That might explain the erratic membership numbers and charts. How many " made guys " in Toronto? I don't think any of us really knows, a direct consequence of how they are organized.


Case in point, in the other thread, about the Bonnanos Christmas party;
One of the posters, ralphie made an observation that they have too many crews, and how smart or successful could these guys be, meeting in broad daylight at a strip mall restaurant. I feel like some guys, see this and say, they are doing fine, cause they replaced a bunch of members, but to me they look to be taking a Rico sooner rather than later. Contrast this to the secretive close knit, blood relative model, like you haven't seen any indictments, and you probably won't see any for awhile...


A Guy like Chicago Tony, made his money in the street, now too rich and legit and savvy to be caught doing anything that will get him heavy time, he seems cut from the same mold as a Crea, who you won't hear about until they are ready to lock up the whole family... It's why depending only on indictments can be, again deceiving.




Another thing I feel is lost on a lot of people, only in New York, is it actually Neccessary to KEEP making guys, because there are five gangs and not one. Like Ivey you always talk about the size of NY and stuff, but trust, if there was a continuation of gang wars like in Chicago, if they would have fought until all the gangs were consolidated into one, even if this family was a thousand made guys, they woulda never made another guy. Why would they? If they established an absence of competition? One guy dies, another guy woulda picked up the rackets, and they would never replace him. This is the real reason why mob membership numbers dwindle in cities not NY, not cause they have that much more criminal acumen, (they got brokesters in the genovese too) but because there was only one gang, no need. You got a hundred guys, ten die, the other 90 are gonna split what they left behind, not go gung-ho and make ten guys just to make em rich, only if they were family I see it happening....




Why would you take a pie that is say 50 pieces for 50 guys and make 50 more guys and cut the pie into 100 pieces? Those made guys don't automatically add revenue to the family, that's Moltisanti thinking. You make those guys and now those 50 made men gotta split what they got with the new guys, hence the need for sit downs to stop violence. This is why they HAVE to keep the numbers static. And why you will occasionally see families try to cheat and add more members than they are allowed.



Think of the meeting between Gotti and Chin, where Chin was holding off on making guys, probably cause it was making the other soldiers and capos richer as they can take a bigger slice. But he had to relent cause of the pressure from Gotti, what happens when Gotti sends a soldier to muscle the associate that's not made? It goes to the table and the associate probably loses, most of the time. In cities outside NY, after competition was eliminated, there was no reason to keep making guys. This sort of explains the 30 ,40 guys, they never really needed more than that I think. And for the record, I find it funny 30 made guys is considered a lot, lol. Like Detroit can't produce 30, 40 guys? Why? Seriously..


Again I gotta reference my post on the Rizzutos, when I talked of the differences between a Family in say Palermo vs one in like Siculiana. The Palermo guys have things to extort, land,citrus markets, construction, business in general, and this is the purpose of the made guys, to extract revenue from the territory. One guy out, another is waiting to fill the void. In Siculiana, you could make guys till their whole hands were bleeding and you ran out of Saint cards, it would not increase the revenue from the territory of Siculiana. They can't just go into Palermo and muscle in, so they gotta migrate. See made men do them no good, they need enterprises to control, drugs ,cigarettes, some form of commodity to sell


I see the same difference in like a Detroit vs a NY. Its like you are comparing a Siculiana type family (Enterprise, selling or controlling a commodity, blood relations) with a Palermo family (Power, extortion, military type command, everyone is just a crook operating under an umbrella). This is why you saw Detroit as a big power in Narcotics early on, you saw guys like Coppola in like three four cities in the Midwest, NO, Mexico, he's everywhere, cause he has to be in order to be successful, and where is he from? Partinico, the sticks lol.





So my points;
1. Detroit is still a family, like what the fuck..
2. Detroit is not a big family, like, what the fuck
3. Detroit cause of the way it's organized, by blood or marriage, is hard to make an indictment against, also hard to identify all the "made" guys, ( gambling is easy, just follow the gamblers lol)
4. I don't think Detroit have ever NEEDED a lot of soldiers, cause they never had competition in Detroit from another family, plus they were high level narcotics dealers for a long time, I already outlined that effect on a family long term...

5. Y'all should leave GR alone on this shit, cause I see lots of people interested in say, the Philly fam, which is more soap opera than mob family,but NO ONE says they ain't a family, this is after the Natale fiasco, which just baffles me, lol
And no one tries to just shut down the thread, we look a New Years Eve pics and admire Joeys hair....

If there aren't the resources, why do we see a fair amount of non-LCN gambling busts in Detroit? Why do we see other criminal enterprises being indicted?

Ivy- where do we see a fair amount of noj -lcn gambling cases in detroit first of all? And second even if thats accurate you and i both know the resources and man power needed to investigate, monitor and build cases on lcn.. Its exponentially more than most all other criminal groups bc theyre so well insulated and in most cases they actively try to avoid and are aware of cops and informers. My point is exactly what you said we see other criminal groups being indicted and targeted because of the state of detroit and the violence and street level drug dealing that is perpetrated by non lcn. If its known that their is a mob there, they have a full admin, multiple crews why is it impossible for u to admit that maybe they are a quietely strong family? You're clearly a smart guy but theres nothin worse than debating or arguing with someone that can never concede a point or consider they may be slightly incorrect i mean come on dude...

I'll put it this way. As time goes on, and the relative lack of mob cases continues in Detroit, at what point are you and others going to change your view on things? How much time has to go by? Another 10 years? 20 years? More?

I admit if more and more years go by and theres no indictments then maybe id have to re-examine my position.. However you didn't address my arguments regarding the state of the city of Detroit, the major issues to which state resources are focusing on, the fact that the city/mayors office has been corrupt for years. Couple that with the fact that the Detroit family has been reported as still active, has had 1 made guy flip ever and they are more intermarried and related than any other family in the US, why then can you not concede or even consider they may be doin better than you think?

To me at least the lack of cases recently does not negate any of these facts. And the way in which you dismiss Priziola's enormous financial success as an anomaly is short sighted. I mean it shows they have smart, secretive, capable guys running the family. If that was say Andy Russo of the Columbos who had that kinda financial success youd be saying theyre now one of the top two families in NY. I mean again go back to what I wrote, they have a full fam and admin and when the mob is left unchecked in any city let alone one that is ripe with corruption, has historical ties to the unions and now major federal and state funds being pumped in for revival and re-development it provides the absolute perfect opportunity for a criminal organization to flourish. Just consider this too .. When the mob was born and flourished it was in response to prohibition and the country in financial ruins from the depression and Le wasnt focusing on them... Now look at present day detroit minus prohibition you have the mob largely unchecked, operating obv in one single territory but being able to take advantage of the city trying to rebuild, to stabilize the economy , and countless opportunities to make money both legit and semi legit... Im not tryinf to win any argument but at least concede its possible that just cuz theres no cases based on all the arguments and factors i listed that maybe they're quietly successful, replenishing ranks and more viable than u thought



The first thing you posted from the FBI website has been up there for at least 15 years.

You then posted the press release from the 2006 gambling bust. While they said organized crime would continue to be a "top priority," that doesn't necessarily mean the LCN alone. Indeed, it's obvious the Detroit mob isn't a big priority at all.



You keep bringing up Lapiana as if he's typical of the Detroit mob. He's not. Compare the families in the present day. The Bonannos are at least 4 times the size, they operate more widely, are more diversified, and have a sufficient recruiting pool to draw from. Look at some of the Bonanno gambling busts over the last 10 or 15 years. They dwarf the Detroit operation busted in 2006.

And like I said above, the priority argument doesn't wash when one considers other gambling operations get busted fairly frequently or that one can go to the Detroit FBI website and see cases involving other criminal enterprises. The Detroit mob is a small priority, to be sure, but it's because it's a very small and rapidly dwindling organization.

I will say this, the counting the number of made guys thing is not really a good method for determining the strength of the families. Mainly cause it can be deceptive. Not that it shouldn't be used,but not as the main criteria...

Furio made the observation that Detroit is organized like an ndrangheta family, astute observation. Blood ties, and control of Enterprises, not territory controlled by made men. I'd be willing to bet, not many people can give an accurate description of families organized like this. It's why we had the Rizzuto thread. That might explain the erratic membership numbers and charts. How many " made guys " in Toronto? I don't think any of us really knows, a direct consequence of how they are organized.


Case in point, in the other thread, about the Bonnanos Christmas party;
One of the posters, ralphie made an observation that they have too many crews, and how smart or successful could these guys be, meeting in broad daylight at a strip mall restaurant. I feel like some guys, see this and say, they are doing fine, cause they replaced a bunch of members, but to me they look to be taking a Rico sooner rather than later. Contrast this to the secretive close knit, blood relative model, like you haven't seen any indictments, and you probably won't see any for awhile...


A Guy like Chicago Tony, made his money in the street, now too rich and legit and savvy to be caught doing anything that will get him heavy time, he seems cut from the same mold as a Crea, who you won't hear about until they are ready to lock up the whole family... It's why depending only on indictments can be, again deceiving.




Another thing I feel is lost on a lot of people, only in New York, is it actually Neccessary to KEEP making guys, because there are five gangs and not one. Like Ivey you always talk about the size of NY and stuff, but trust, if there was a continuation of gang wars like in Chicago, if they would have fought until all the gangs were consolidated into one, even if this family was a thousand made guys, they woulda never made another guy. Why would they? If they established an absence of competition? One guy dies, another guy woulda picked up the rackets, and they would never replace him. This is the real reason why mob membership numbers dwindle in cities not NY, not cause they have that much more criminal acumen, (they got brokesters in the genovese too) but because there was only one gang, no need. You got a hundred guys, ten die, the other 90 are gonna split what they left behind, not go gung-ho and make ten guys just to make em rich, only if they were family I see it happening....




Why would you take a pie that is say 50 pieces for 50 guys and make 50 more guys and cut the pie into 100 pieces? Those made guys don't automatically add revenue to the family, that's Moltisanti thinking. You make those guys and now those 50 made men gotta split what they got with the new guys, hence the need for sit downs to stop violence. This is why they HAVE to keep the numbers static. And why you will occasionally see families try to cheat and add more members than they are allowed.



Think of the meeting between Gotti and Chin, where Chin was holding off on making guys, probably cause it was making the other soldiers and capos richer as they can take a bigger slice. But he had to relent cause of the pressure from Gotti, what happens when Gotti sends a soldier to muscle the associate that's not made? It goes to the table and the associate probably loses, most of the time. In cities outside NY, after competition was eliminated, there was no reason to keep making guys. This sort of explains the 30 ,40 guys, they never really needed more than that I think. And for the record, I find it funny 30 made guys is considered a lot, lol. Like Detroit can't produce 30, 40 guys? Why? Seriously..


Again I gotta reference my post on the Rizzutos, when I talked of the differences between a Family in say Palermo vs one in like Siculiana. The Palermo guys have things to extort, land,citrus markets, construction, business in general, and this is the purpose of the made guys, to extract revenue from the territory. One guy out, another is waiting to fill the void. In Siculiana, you could make guys till their whole hands were bleeding and you ran out of Saint cards, it would not increase the revenue from the territory of Siculiana. They can't just go into Palermo and muscle in, so they gotta migrate. See made men do them no good, they need enterprises to control, drugs ,cigarettes, some form of commodity to sell


I see the same difference in like a Detroit vs a NY. Its like you are comparing a Siculiana type family (Enterprise, selling or controlling a commodity, blood relations) with a Palermo family (Power, extortion, military type command, everyone is just a crook operating under an umbrella). This is why you saw Detroit as a big power in Narcotics early on, you saw guys like Coppola in like three four cities in the Midwest, NO, Mexico, he's everywhere, cause he has to be in order to be successful, and where is he from? Partinico, the sticks lol.





So my points;
1. Detroit is still a family, like what the fuck..
2. Detroit is not a big family, like, what the fuck
3. Detroit cause of the way it's organized, by blood or marriage, is hard to make an indictment against, also hard to identify all the "made" guys, ( gambling is easy, just follow the gamblers lol)
4. I don't think Detroit have ever NEEDED a lot of soldiers, cause they never had competition in Detroit from another family, plus they were high level narcotics dealers for a long time, I already outlined that effect on a family long term...

5. Y'all should leave GR alone on this shit, cause I see lots of people interested in say, the Philly fam, which is more soap opera than mob family,but NO ONE says they ain't a family, this is after the Natale fiasco, which just baffles me, lol
And no one tries to just shut down the thread, we look a New Years Eve pics and admire Joeys hair....

Again, power is a funny thing Ivey, like you mention a 200 member family vs a 20 member one. Example NO was estimated to be like 20 members, yet Marcello ran the whole state (also note; NO fought a mafia war' Matranga vs Provenzano, that established an absence of competition, notice they didn't bother making anyone new after this...) Costello had anywhere from 200 to 350 soldiers, yet he couldn't do anything with Dewy, couldn't stop the Mayor from kicking him outta the City.


Mikey makes a great point about the state of Detroit, overlooked point there, and a valid one....


My thing when you say the Bonnanos make Detroit look like small time, I disagree wholeheartedly. To me, as far as how they operate, historical success, them being so tight knit and having legit stuff to fall back on, Detroit makes THEM look small time, like I say, I feel you base that off pure numbers... Now, before you bite off my head understand what I mean. Detroit is a fuckin ruin, NY dwarfs it, in every way, but especially in terms of the amount of business there. To me, half those Bonnano guys SHOULD be like a Chicago Tony by now, not meeting at a strip mall.It's almost like NY is so big these guys can afford to be lazy. See, these guys are making money by extracting it from the territory they control, or selling something you can hold in your hands; The time where the mob can just demand tribute is long past, they ain't even goin for that in Sicily anymore, so to me, what enterprises are they running? That's what I tend to look at first...




Thirty years ago, Chin told Castellano, " What the fuck are we doing with these meetings?" " What if we end up taking a surveillance? We are going to end up paying the
piper.." Now fast forward, and this Cammarano is doing a Gotti at the Raventite in 2016!
I mean, the EGO. Contrast this with the secretive model, these photos will end up being evidence in a RICO....
I mentioned Chicago Tony, let me ask a real question, can those 14 Bonnano capos come with 50 mil between them? Legit 50 mil too, I mean you know how many loans you could get, or investors you could woo, just like, to me this guys capabilities, far exceed anyone on the street in say philly, and I would guess, if you put this guy in any city with a mob, he'd be capo or better, EASY. Like a no brainer.... Same deal with the Philly mob, can their 50 soldiers come up with 50 mil between em? Do those soldiers command the type of fear that enables them to demand tribute? Do they have the contacts and resources to create new enterprises?




Again, Detroit is a little ass family, no one is arguing against that. But they are second- third generation guys, raised in the life, insulated, well schooled, well connected, and low key. Everything you would expect from a viable mob family. It just the territory is shit, but the Detroit fam was never totally dependent on the territory, not like NY guys are...

At the end of the day a poster must choose either of the following scenario as truth.

A) that Detroit is unlike any other LCN family in the world operating without meaningful prosecution from authorities due to family, skill etc.

Or

B) the lack of any meaningful prosecution indicates a correspondent lack in illegal activity.

Summise to say you must either believe Detroit is unique in the world (yawn) or its operations are minescule at best (hint hint).

Which one will it be....

My last few thought on an interesting debate;

1. I just really wanted to be sure we weren't maintaining any double standards on this one. Law enforcement was made the preeminent source for info regarding LCN and mob activities. My feeling was if the Feds say there is a viable family, 30 or so guys, 4 crews, and an administration, largely confined to gambling, I say okay, so what? That's why the argument confuses me a little, you guys are saying absolutely not, its Impossible? If the FBI info is obsolete, then I guess you would have a point..... Just to clarify, is it? These charts are Burnsteins and NOT the Feds, right? And he has an agenda? To like sell books or something? Or his website? That's what you guys are saying it seems.....


2. I also think a sole focus on made guys, like I said, can be deceptive. I've made note of the similarities with Detroits family and some of the ones in Italy. I'm just hesitant to compare them with a NY family, structure wise, when it's like apples and oranges. Take Sicily, they got over a hundred families, some of em like 20-30 guys. I would bet 95% probably wouldn't measure up to a comparison to something like a NY family, or meet the definition of viable, but they are still families? I guess.....

My last few thought on an interesting debate;

1. I just really wanted to be sure we weren't maintaining any double standards on this one. Law enforcement was made the preeminent source for info regarding LCN and mob activities. My feeling was if the Feds say there is a viable family, 30 or so guys, 4 crews, and an administration, largely confined to gambling, I say okay, so what? That's why the argument confuses me a little, you guys are saying absolutely not, its Impossible? If the FBI info is obsolete, then I guess you would have a point..... Just to clarify, is it? These charts are Burnsteins and NOT the Feds, right? And he has an agenda? To like sell books or something? Or his website? That's what you guys are saying it seems.....

what i cant understand with you ivy and sonny is why it can be seen in the middle?

i never said and i dont think anyone on here believes they have 40 made guys with mythical ability to survive prosecution. But if you do look back in history they have been very good at surviving prosecution but your right the lack of mob cases does suggest a family in decline. The FBI say it is a viable but then there is a lack of cases your right ivy

maybe your right as well ivy scott is a bullshitter he does not get paid through his site but he could be exaggerating to get more attention. Then again jerry capeci allowed him to write on his gangland site so jerry does not see him as a lier. I personally enjoy his site do i take everything he says as fact? no i do not



could you see it possible ivy and sonny that there is LCN in detroit with around 20-25 made guys a small tight knit leadership a family who is getting older with a hierarchy i know of a couple of young guys neither made but your right ivy they are in decline. I think that is a likely situation in this family. There is a argument ivy like you said in one of your earlier posts for both points and as you said its why mob experts are at disagreement.



we can all agree that they are a very interesting family

The funny thing is, Ivy is doing exactly what he so often accuses everyone else he "debates" with. Pick and choosing the information that supports his argument. You can't say, well I believe law enforcement about THIS but not about THIS because it doesnt fit the horn I have been tooting.

Understand, I had to put up with someone saying the Rizzutos are a crew. Which is breathtakingly silly, but I didn't see anywhere near this level of resistance.....


I watched that Philly special report, ( and I will gladly eat my words, as they appear to be active and trying to do it the right way, well, besides the social club, lol) it said clearly there's four factions, yet guys on the board like Sonny can call bullshit, on info that came from from law enforcement clearly, and reported on the news. No one bit his head off either?




But apparently you guys interpret info better than anyone else? It just cracks me up sometimes. Like I remember people were speculating Cali was running the Gambinos, people said no way. Then Capeci said the same thing, and it's he's a hack, people write for him, he's losing it. Well, he's still the best source of info on this shit for most people.



That Jersey OC report, has a lot of inaccuracies, I don't dismiss it outright though, I sift through and find the quality info. I read stuff all the time completely contradictory to what's "accepted fact".


Like I said, if the info is in fact obsolete, fine. Just don't maintain any double standards. Like Ivey you say you want to keep the things grounded, fine. Just remember, you also argued up,and down, that Detroit wasn't, no fuck that, you said COULDNT be a power in the 40s and 50s. Just like you keep everyone in check, people have to make sure you practice what you preach......

Can't believe this argument happens like, I don't know, once every two weeks? The same. Exact. Thing.

Ivy, I swear, I don't understand how you never tire of repeating the same shit over and over. And over. And again. 10 years plus. Same shit.

what i cant understand with you ivy and sonny is why it can be seen in the middle?

i never said and i dont think anyone on here believes they have 40 made guys with mythical ability to survive prosecution. But if you do look back in history they have been very good at surviving prosecution but your right the lack of mob cases does suggest a family in decline. The FBI say it is a viable but then there is a lack of cases your right ivy

maybe your right as well ivy scott is a bullshitter he does not get paid through his site but he could be exaggerating to get more attention. Then again jerry capeci allowed him to write on his gangland site so jerry does not see him as a lier. I personally enjoy his site do i take everything he says as fact? no i do not



could you see it possible ivy and sonny that there is LCN in detroit with around 20-25 made guys a small tight knit leadership a family who is getting older with a hierarchy i know of a couple of young guys neither made but your right ivy they are in decline. I think that is a likely situation in this family. There is a argument ivy like you said in one of your earlier posts for both points and as you said its why mob experts are at disagreement.



we can all agree that they are a very interesting family

See what I said above about people being justified in still including Detroit among the remaining viable families as long as the image they have of the family has some basis in demonstrable fact.

I don't think Scott is a bullshitter or intentionally misleads. I do think he's been sloppy at times, slow to admit he's guessing on a lot of stuff, and quick to take liberties with slapping labels on guys and overstating the position of the family. It's a common thing one sees with mob authors and their subject. See The Sixth Family by Humphreys and Lamothe or Gangbusters by Volkman, for example.

Lastly, considering where the membership was 15-20 years ago, and how many members have died over that period, I'd honestly be surprised if the family even has 20-25 members at this point.