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Re: Are the Rizzuto's LCN?
[Re: mike89]
#872146
01/09/16 05:35 PM
01/09/16 05:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,841
SinatraClub
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Violi was killed because his Reggio cafe was bugged for over a year and he said a lot of shit he shouldn't of said. Not only that but he didn't make his situation any better during his appearance at the Quebec Crime Commission, it had little while to do with Nicolo. I'd like to know what media it is you're referring to, because this is honestly the first time I'm hearing Nicolo was exiled. Not to mention the Sixth Family, in both the original and updated versions of the book state he voluntarily left. As well as other sources on the matter. And quite frankly, there's been nothing to support the claim that Nicolo was exiled.
Petrino also wasn't a "Sicilian from the old country, he was Violi's consigliere, when Violi was filling in for Cotroni as acting boss, while he was jailed. Pietro Sciara is Zio Petrino. Now I'm going to prove this claim incorrect, and here's where I have to question these media sources of yours. Pietro Sciara spent portions of his life in Cattolica Eraclea. But he was a Canadian resident after being sentenced to house arrest in the Northern Part of Italy. He was made consigliere by Cotroni & Violi, so he was wrongfully and ultimately loyal to them and it's ultimately what got him killed. Now, Violi was literally the only one wanting to exile Nicolo after he couldn't get the Commission to back his request of killing him. Now Nicolo himself went to NY, without anyone calling him there or being sent for, and he met with NY Bonannos. Its unknown what was said during this meeting and it's the only time Nicolo ever went to New York . After this, Natale Evola sent Bonanno representives to Montreal to meet with Violi, Sciara was present at this meeting, the Bonanno reps consisted of Michael Zaffarano, Nicolemo Alfano, and Nicolo Buttafuoco. After Violi, repeated to them how Nicolo went from place to place, without seeking permission, acting like he ran his own family, and ultimately did his own business without including the Violi & Cotroni, the Bonanno reps, because of Nicolos drug connects in South America, ruled that Violi should keep Nicolo in the Montreal fold. Now prior to this, Violi managed to get one Sicilian Mafiosi on his side, Tommaso Buscetta, who strangely enough, had strong ties himself to the Bonannos, he suggested to Nicolo that he just obey Violi and Cotroni, claiming that since Nicolo wasn't a full fledged member of the Siculiana clan, that he just abide by Violi, and wait until hes inducted into the Bonannos. Buscetta was right about the Siculiana part, because Nicolo was a full fledged member of the Manno Clan in Cattolica Eraclea, of course Nicolo didnt listen. Mind you Nicolo had already left for Venezuela, prior to Violi and his exile talk..Pasquale [BadWord] who hosted this meeting, then had to explain to Buscetta, how they're drug pipeline worked, with Nicolos involvement. During this time the Caruana-[BadWord] and the Rizzutos by extension, where the leading importers of Heroin into the US. After this meet, Nicolo simply went back to Venzuela, which enraged Violi. Violi then requested to meet with Antonino Calderone, who was a Sicilian boss from Catania. He wasnt impressed by Violi, called him a fat slob, and automatically felt Nicolo and his Sicilian faction, shouldve held rank and say over Cotroni & Violi. As he said that there were no Men Of Honor in Calabria and he didnt consider them Mafioso. He says Violi was going to Calabria seeking out Mafioso, which he then said, there weren't any in Calabria. He also questioned that if Violi was such a big time gangster, how come he didn't have his own direct channel with 'Ndranghesti in Calabria? He also said that they, in Sicily, didn't induct Calabrians because they talked too much and was always arguing amongst themselves, knowing they we're inferior to Cosa Nostra. He said all this in his memoirs.
During the same time period of that meeting is when Violi secured an audience with Giuseppe Settecasi. Settecasi refused to turn on a Paesano.
After the Bonanno meeting, Violi and Sciara, were meeting with Giuseppe "Pino" Cuffaro. Cuffaro, also a Sicilian Mafioso, but of lower rank, requested to be made into the Montreal Outfit. Violi denied his request, stating that Sicilians come into Montreal and dont understand rules. Violi said he didnt want to hear about their Families and ranks in Sicily, and that they had to be loyal to him, Cotroni & America. Cuffaro came back with Carmelo Salemi, a Sicilian Mafioso visiting Montreal from Agrigento and they pressed the issue to Violi. Salemi was in defense of Cuffaro, but he also wanted Giovanni Caruana, a former boss from the Agrigento Province, who moved to Venezuela, to be recognized as a Mafioso, when in Montreal. Violi told Salemi the same thing and instructed he was beginning a five year probationary period, for all Sicilians before they're recognized as Mafioso or made into the Montreal Outfit. This pissed off Salemi and the majority of bosses back in Sicily, whom wanted their men to be recognized as Mafiosi immediately when in Montreal, so they can run their drug operations freely and without issue.
This also angered some Bonannos, who explicably told Violi to let Nicolo operate in Montreal, as well as other Sicilians. Mind you, the majority of these meetings were being recorded by law enforcement. And that combination of things, led to Violi and all those loyal to him, to be killed. Again Nicolo was never exiled, and a combination of his very own refusal to follow orders from NY, and making everything accessible to the RCMP is what lead to his murder.
Last edited by SinatraClub; 01/09/16 06:47 PM.
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Re: Are the Rizzuto's LCN?
[Re: Sonny_Black]
#872182
01/10/16 12:27 AM
01/10/16 12:27 AM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,841
SinatraClub
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,841
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Pietro Sciara was never Paolo Violi's "consigliere". First of all, because Violi wasn't a boss and second of all, even more important, because Sciara was a member of a the Siculiana clan. Sciara was however a confidant of Violi and Cotroni.
I also want to say that I agree with everything that Ivyleague has stated in this thread. I also agree with Peccatore. You're also of the opinion that the Rizzutos and Montreal as whole we're simply a Bonanno crew, so they possibly couldn't of had bosses or lieutenant's or consiglieres. So you don't have to tell me. Your opinion on things are widely known. There's also NUMEROUS sources in which Sciara is labeled as consigliere, appointed by Cotroni and Violi. Just like in numerous sources, including RCMP documents and NY files Greco is labeled as a Violi Lieutenant.
Last edited by SinatraClub; 01/10/16 07:23 PM.
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Re: Are the Rizzuto's LCN?
[Re: Ciment]
#872185
01/10/16 12:37 AM
01/10/16 12:37 AM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,841
SinatraClub
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,841
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It took me 2 seconds to google. Here's your proof. I stopped looking after 2 seconds.
Globe & Mail Nov.23 2006 updated 2009
Nicolo (Nick) Rizzuto, 82
The patriarch of the Rizzuto family came to Canada in 1954 from the small Sicilian town of Cattolica Eroclea.
By 1975, he was identified in a public inquiry as a lieutenant of the Cotronis, the family of Calabrian origin that controlled Montreal's Mafia.
During the power struggle for control of the Montreal Mafia in the late 1970s, he was forced into exile in Venezuela, police wiretaps show. The 1978 assassination of the leading mafioso Paolo Violi enabled him to return, signalling the rise of mobsters of Sicilian origin affiliated with the Rizzutos over their Calabrian rivals.
Mr. Rizzuto served five years in jail in Venezuela for cocaine possession in 1998.
###################################################################
Bruh, thats a newspaper article, those have been proven to be inaccurate from the past you know. The meeting from NY that youve mentioned, in which I responded to, stating that the meeting did happen, but that NY Bonannos did not rule to exile Nicolo and instead told Violi to let him remain operating in Montreal, this is all supported by those same wiretaps. The sources are mentioned in various books on the subject like The Sixth Family and Mafia Inc. And again, Nicolo was still traveling back and forth to Montreal while he stayed in Venezuela, so how was he exiled? Violi was the only one who spoke about this exile business and he couldn't get permission from NY nor anywhere else. Nicolo voluntarily left, fearing Violi would bypass everything he was told, and would kill him anyway.
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Re: Are the Rizzuto's LCN?
[Re: mike89]
#872190
01/10/16 01:07 AM
01/10/16 01:07 AM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,841
SinatraClub
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,841
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The sources, the wiretaps, the books written, Nicolos own visits to Montreal, says it's inaccurate. And that's not at all a discredit to you, but to the sources that you're quoting. Its plausible that paper or news site had access to tidbits of transcripts from those wire taps, saw Violis part of wanting to exile Nicolo, saw the fact that left for Venezuela, and put two and two together to reach a conclusion of Nicolo being exiled without actually knowing the full picture.
Last edited by SinatraClub; 01/10/16 01:09 AM.
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Re: Are the Rizzuto's LCN?
[Re: mike89]
#872195
01/10/16 02:54 AM
01/10/16 02:54 AM
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,653
Chicago
CabriniGreen
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,653
Chicago
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It was kinda covered in the Sixth Family; He " Accepted " membership in the Bonnanos, because this facilitated his drug trafficking, but he was always loyal to his father, and their own family interest.
I'm a little baffled, cause I thought I explained all this, I feel these guys are too stuck on the " Boss" , " Capo" , ect..... They are ignoring the key component, drug trafficking, like wtf?
The Rizzutos are no different than the " Spaniards" from Naples, or the Nuvolettas, or the DiLauros, all families, that started out as crews in bigger organizations, but were pumped with the organizational steroid that is drug trafficking. That's why I gave them as examples. Like the Sicilian mafia is for Sicilians only right? So how the fuck are the Naples based Nuvolettas one of the top families? Like how the fuck they even get made? Answer, the Cupola admitted them cause it was in their interest to do so, they do this a lot more often than people realize...
Saying the Rizzutos are still part of The Bonnanos is to ignore the core tenant of their organization, narcotics, you can't do that. You can't say the Zetas are still part of the gulf cartel, you can't say NewJalisco is still subservient to Sinaloa, how many cartel s came outta Arellano organization or the Fuentes organization. You can't say DiLauro is still under LaMonica, can't say HIS lieutenants that broke away, the Spaniards, are still under him just cause that's where they started,can't say Gennaro Licciardi was still a lieutenant of the forcella boss. The Nuvolettas, Caruana-Cun-trera, Rizzutos, the Gambino-Spatola-DiMaggio-Bontade clan, all these clans operated basically the same, as huge narcotics holding companies, ruled by blood families.
Look at the Cherry Hill Gambinos. Dope family, blood relations. Now John was made in the Gambinos, because this gives him authority in America when dealing with OTHER MADE MEN. But this clans actual loyally was to the Inzirillo- Spatola-DiMagio-Bontade clan. Rosario was made in Italy and that's who he took orders from. So John handles the American end, and Rosario was answerable to Sicily. Now is John a Gambino member' sure. But his JOB, was managing the heroin trade for the mafia, not whether or not so and so is encroaching on someone's bookmaking racket.The Bonnanos made Vito cause it was in their interest to do so, Sonny Red basically took the Sicilians dope and said fuck you, I'm going to be the new boss soon, you ain't gettin paid. And he wasn't going to cut in the other crews, he was basically picking up where Galante left off.
This thing like, are they LCN, are they not, do they have a "Boss, Under, 15 Capos, a consigliere, 100 soldiers" , all that shit is designed to control territory, Rizzutos were mainly concerned with controlling narcotics.
In the book Cosa Nostra, the author has a theory of a " Power syndicate" and an " Enterprise syndicate". Understanding the difference between the two will clear up a lot of confusion here.
You are the boss of the " Luca Brasi" family in Palermo. There are dozens of families operating around you, similar to the dozens of crews operating in New York. You are all in competition with another, within the same sphere of influence, and a lot of the times, competing for the same rackets. You have 50 made men in your family, you are involved in extortion of local businesses, construction, you have several businesses that supply the local markets (let say you supply cheese and whatever, you control the trucking for all the citrus). You need your 50 made men concentrated in your territory because you need to show your military power to your rivals. You control a specific territory and extract revenue from legal and illegal businesses in said territory. You are in control of a " Power Syndicate".
I am the boss of the "Sollozzo Rossatto" family from, let's say......fuck it Agrigento, okay? My town is not Palermo. It's not the city, it's rural. I have 35 soldiers in my family. The economic opportunities are limited for men of honor here. But I have connections in Turkey, with a prominent Turkish crime family, and I have "Family" in, let's say Florida, and they are well established, as well as some family in NewJersey. Now, I can make 100 guys, that is not going to help me facilitate the drug trade in Agrigento. It's also not going to automatically create opportunities to make money, just increases the size of the pie in my little rural area.Whereas the Brasi boss concentrates his strength in his territory' I send my made men out in a DIASPORA, all over, some in Florida, some in Jersey, some in other strategic cities and locations. I can now operate a super narcotics ring, But am unconcerned with controlling territory, I am in control of an "Enterprise Syndicate". Now, can you see how the difference creates almost opposite needs in the organization?
Also in the book, the author makes a point of illustrating that while in NY, Luciano was in control of a power syndicate, cause he controlled territory that he extracted legal and illegal revenue from,but in Italy, it was an enterprise syndicate, because he was involved in all kinds of illegal trafficking, but didn't have the authority to control Sicily or Naples themselves.
Remember in the Sixth Family when Violi told Nick Rizzuto that any arriving Sicilian made men had to wait FIVE YEARS, before they could basically do anything. This was him excersicing control over his " power syndicate" . It wasn't until Violi took that stance that they even felt they NEEDED to control Montreal.
I could really go on and on with examples and shit, but consider this; The Godfather movies predicted ALL this shit. From the first one with the " keep the traffic amongst the coloreds" , then think about Pentagalies rant about the Rossatos, " They recruit Spicks, ni**ers, everything is dope, everything else is last".... but what is ground zero for moving dope in the streets, the poor black and Hispanic neighborhoods, now think Fernandez or Wooley, see? How bout Joey Zaza, " Sure I take in the blacks and the Spanish", likely cause that's where he moves the most dope. He likely can't compete with the established families, he NEEDS the drug trade, and he NEEDED access to those neighborhoods more than he needed more made men. Think about how they said the rules, or Michael, or his lack of prestige, all these things stopped him from rising up. All of this shit is a consequence of a focus , long term, on narcotics... So the Godfather movies predicted all of this as an eventuality of organizations that focused on drugs. Oooooh boy, see I'm not Italian, and didn't grow up in the mafia or New York, but I did grow up in a narcotics entrenched crime family, so a lot of these moves are just instantly familiar to me....
Last edited by CabriniGreen; 01/10/16 07:32 AM.
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Re: Are the Rizzuto's LCN?
[Re: SinatraClub]
#872211
01/10/16 11:43 AM
01/10/16 11:43 AM
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
Sonny_Black
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
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Pietro Sciara was never Paolo Violi's "consigliere". First of all, because Violi wasn't a boss and second of all, even more important, because Sciara was a member of a the Siculiana clan. Sciara was however a confidant of Violi and Cotroni.
I also want to say that I agree with everything that Ivyleague has stated in this thread. I also agree with Peccatore. You're also of the opinion that the Rizzutos and Montreal as whole we're simply a Bonanno crew, so they possibly couldn't of had bosses or lieutenant's or consiglieres. So you don't have to tell me. Your opinion on things are widely known. There's also NUMEROUS sources in which Sciara is labeled as consigliere, appointed by Cotroni and Violi. Just like in numerous sources, including RCMP documents and NY files is labeled as a Violi Lieutenant. I wasn't telling you in particular otherwise I would've quoted you. And if anybody's opinion is 'widely known' by now it is yours. Where are these RCMP documents and NY files you're talking about? Are you making things up again? 
"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
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Re: Are the Rizzuto's LCN?
[Re: CabriniGreen]
#872216
01/10/16 12:07 PM
01/10/16 12:07 PM
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
Sonny_Black
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
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@ Sonny
I'm can understand agreeing with Ivey, but you really think the Rizzutos are a Bonnano crew? Why exactly? I'm really curious,me specially after everything that's been said, and all the links provided in this thread.... Montreal has been a Bonanno crew for half a century. That has been factually proven. However, their exact status in the last decade is unclear because there's little information about it. Also, half of what's been said in this thread is distorted information.
"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
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Re: Are the Rizzuto's LCN?
[Re: Sonny_Black]
#872247
01/10/16 07:21 PM
01/10/16 07:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,841
SinatraClub
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,841
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Pietro Sciara was never Paolo Violi's "consigliere". First of all, because Violi wasn't a boss and second of all, even more important, because Sciara was a member of a the Siculiana clan. Sciara was however a confidant of Violi and Cotroni.
I also want to say that I agree with everything that Ivyleague has stated in this thread. I also agree with Peccatore. You're also of the opinion that the Rizzutos and Montreal as whole we're simply a Bonanno crew, so they possibly couldn't of had bosses or lieutenant's or consiglieres. So you don't have to tell me. Your opinion on things are widely known. There's also NUMEROUS sources in which Sciara is labeled as consigliere, appointed by Cotroni and Violi. Just like in numerous sources, including RCMP documents and NY files is labeled as a Violi Lieutenant. I wasn't telling you in particular otherwise I would've quoted you. And if anybody's opinion is 'widely known' by now it is yours. Where are these RCMP documents and NY files you're talking about? Are you making things up again? Err, I just posted an excerpt of a NY file that was in relation to the Bananas war on the last page in which Greco is id'ed as a lieutenant. Or do you presume I somehow created this document? I also literally had JUST said to you that Mafia Inc. also ID's Sciara as a Cotroni & Violi appointed Consigliere. Which you can read yourself on pg. 93. Or do you assume these guys had no sources for their information and that they had no idea what they were talking about? I also posted Vitales court testimony from the De Fillippo/Basciano trial in which he says that Vito didn't answer to Massino because they had created their own "little splinter group". But let me guess, Vitale "could've meant anything", right. None of the info or links posted in this thread is distorted. You just seem to have some weird infatuation with a NY family thats literally BEEN the Red headed step child of the Five Families since the 60's, and seem to be giving them more power than they actually held at certain times throughout their history. You also cannot deny the fact that in numerous investments around the world, of the Rizzutos and Montreal, has NO Bonanno links. You also cannot deny the fact that throughout numerous investigations by the RCMP, joint investigations between the RCMP and Quebec Crime Commission, which was going on since the early 90's, NO Bonanno links had been found, nor were any Bonannos named , charged or indicted. Or is this merely a coincidence to you? Or the Canadian authorities were stupid when it came to NY? Again youd have to be implying that NY knew all about Montreal and Canada, which there is ZERO evidence to support. Not to mention Vitales meeting with Vito and his men occurred in '01, I believe? So it's been well over a "decade or so" that the Rizzutos and Montreal as a whole neglected their Bonanno connection. Also, in the case of Montagna, in more than one book, let's say Business Or Blood for example. Its heavily implied, WITH sources which are listed by chapter in the back of the book. That Montagna got the okay to move against the Rizzutos from Ontario and a NY family linked to guys there. We've learned through very recent drug cases both in Ontario and in NY, that the NY family with links into Ontario are the Gambinos, NOT The Bonannos. The Ontario/Gambino links were also mentioned by Antimafia on various forums, before these drug cases ever came into fruition. So I'd assume that the NY guys whom were actually meeting with Montagna and where he was taking his cues from, were NY Gambinos, acting in conjunction with Ontario clans. Again, NOT the Bonannos. Which is a theory being put forth on The Black Hand, that Nicolo & Nick Jr died because of Vito officially informing the Bonannos that he was breaking ties during a meet in 2001.
Last edited by SinatraClub; 01/10/16 07:51 PM.
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Re: Are the Rizzuto's LCN?
[Re: CabriniGreen]
#872249
01/10/16 07:58 PM
01/10/16 07:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,841
SinatraClub
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,841
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It was kinda covered in the Sixth Family; He " Accepted " membership in the Bonnanos, because this facilitated his drug trafficking, but he was always loyal to his father, and their own family interest.
I'm a little baffled, cause I thought I explained all this, I feel these guys are too stuck on the " Boss" , " Capo" , ect..... They are ignoring the key component, drug trafficking, like wtf?
The Rizzutos are no different than the " Spaniards" from Naples, or the Nuvolettas, or the DiLauros, all families, that started out as crews in bigger organizations, but were pumped with the organizational steroid that is drug trafficking. That's why I gave them as examples. Like the Sicilian mafia is for Sicilians only right? So how the fuck are the Naples based Nuvolettas one of the top families? Like how the fuck they even get made? Answer, the Cupola admitted them cause it was in their interest to do so, they do this a lot more often than people realize...
Saying the Rizzutos are still part of The Bonnanos is to ignore the core tenant of their organization, narcotics, you can't do that. You can't say the Zetas are still part of the gulf cartel, you can't say NewJalisco is still subservient to Sinaloa, how many cartel s came outta Arellano organization or the Fuentes organization. You can't say DiLauro is still under LaMonica, can't say HIS lieutenants that broke away, the Spaniards, are still under him just cause that's where they started,can't say Gennaro Licciardi was still a lieutenant of the forcella boss. The Nuvolettas, Caruana-Cun-trera, Rizzutos, the Gambino-Spatola-DiMaggio-Bontade clan, all these clans operated basically the same, as huge narcotics holding companies, ruled by blood families.
Look at the Cherry Hill Gambinos. Dope family, blood relations. Now John was made in the Gambinos, because this gives him authority in America when dealing with OTHER MADE MEN. But this clans actual loyally was to the Inzirillo- Spatola-DiMagio-Bontade clan. Rosario was made in Italy and that's who he took orders from. So John handles the American end, and Rosario was answerable to Sicily. Now is John a Gambino member' sure. But his JOB, was managing the heroin trade for the mafia, not whether or not so and so is encroaching on someone's bookmaking racket.The Bonnanos made Vito cause it was in their interest to do so, Sonny Red basically took the Sicilians dope and said fuck you, I'm going to be the new boss soon, you ain't gettin paid. And he wasn't going to cut in the other crews, he was basically picking up where Galante left off.
This thing like, are they LCN, are they not, do they have a "Boss, Under, 15 Capos, a consigliere, 100 soldiers" , all that shit is designed to control territory, Rizzutos were mainly concerned with controlling narcotics.
In the book Cosa Nostra, the author has a theory of a " Power syndicate" and an " Enterprise syndicate". Understanding the difference between the two will clear up a lot of confusion here.
You are the boss of the " Luca Brasi" family in Palermo. There are dozens of families operating around you, similar to the dozens of crews operating in New York. You are all in competition with another, within the same sphere of influence, and a lot of the times, competing for the same rackets. You have 50 made men in your family, you are involved in extortion of local businesses, construction, you have several businesses that supply the local markets (let say you supply cheese and whatever, you control the trucking for all the citrus). You need your 50 made men concentrated in your territory because you need to show your military power to your rivals. You control a specific territory and extract revenue from legal and illegal businesses in said territory. You are in control of a " Power Syndicate".
I am the boss of the "Sollozzo Rossatto" family from, let's say......fuck it Agrigento, okay? My town is not Palermo. It's not the city, it's rural. I have 35 soldiers in my family. The economic opportunities are limited for men of honor here. But I have connections in Turkey, with a prominent Turkish crime family, and I have "Family" in, let's say Florida, and they are well established, as well as some family in NewJersey. Now, I can make 100 guys, that is not going to help me facilitate the drug trade in Agrigento. It's also not going to automatically create opportunities to make money, just increases the size of the pie in my little rural area.Whereas the Brasi boss concentrates his strength in his territory' I send my made men out in a DIASPORA, all over, some in Florida, some in Jersey, some in other strategic cities and locations. I can now operate a super narcotics ring, But am unconcerned with controlling territory, I am in control of an "Enterprise Syndicate". Now, can you see how the difference creates almost opposite needs in the organization?
Also in the book, the author makes a point of illustrating that while in NY, Luciano was in control of a power syndicate, cause he controlled territory that he extracted legal and illegal revenue from,but in Italy, it was an enterprise syndicate, because he was involved in all kinds of illegal trafficking, but didn't have the authority to control Sicily or Naples themselves.
Remember in the Sixth Family when Violi told Nick Rizzuto that any arriving Sicilian made men had to wait FIVE YEARS, before they could basically do anything. This was him excersicing control over his " power syndicate" . It wasn't until Violi took that stance that they even felt they NEEDED to control Montreal.
I could really go on and on with examples and shit, but consider this; The Godfather movies predicted ALL this shit. From the first one with the " keep the traffic amongst the coloreds" , then think about Pentagalies rant about the Rossatos, " They recruit Spicks, ni**ers, everything is dope, everything else is last".... but what is ground zero for moving dope in the streets, the poor black and Hispanic neighborhoods, now think Fernandez or Wooley, see? How bout Joey Zaza, " Sure I take in the blacks and the Spanish", likely cause that's where he moves the most dope. He likely can't compete with the established families, he NEEDS the drug trade, and he NEEDED access to those neighborhoods more than he needed more made men. Think about how they said the rules, or Michael, or his lack of prestige, all these things stopped him from rising up. All of this shit is a consequence of a focus , long term, on narcotics... So the Godfather movies predicted all of this as an eventuality of organizations that focused on drugs. Oooooh boy, see I'm not Italian, and didn't grow up in the mafia or New York, but I did grow up in a narcotics entrenched crime family, so a lot of these moves are just instantly familiar to me.... Smart man right here. Seriously.
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Re: Are the Rizzuto's LCN?
[Re: SinatraClub]
#872272
01/10/16 10:56 PM
01/10/16 10:56 PM
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
Sonny_Black
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
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Err, I just posted an excerpt of a NY file that was in relation to the Bananas war on the last page in which Greco is id'ed as a lieutenant. Or do you presume I somehow created this document? What has that got to do with with Pietro Sciara..? I also literally had JUST said to you that Mafia Inc. also ID's Sciara as a Cotroni & Violi appointed Consigliere. Which you can read yourself on pg. 93. Or do you assume these guys had no sources for their information and that they had no idea what they were talking about? They do state that. But the fact of the matter is that Violi was not an official boss and Sciara was a member of a different family, which they also confirm. None of the info or links posted in this thread is distorted. All your ramblings about Rizzuto and Violi are from the top of your head instead of the book which is distorted information. You've been doing this on the other forums as well. You also cannot deny the fact that in numerous investments around the world, of the Rizzutos and Montreal, has NO Bonanno links. You must be delusional, because there is plenty of evidence that there are links between the Rizzutos and Bonannos. The FBI for instance listed Vito as a soldier in the Bonanno family. And then there is this: http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada...ls-cocaine-ringhttp://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada...prosecutors-sayhttp://nypost.com/2013/04/29/bonanno-cri...-nyc-drug-ring/http://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/alle...rs-imprisonmenthttp://www.dea.gov/divisions/nyc/2013/nyc050613.shtmlYou also cannot deny the fact that throughout numerous investigations by the RCMP, joint investigations between the RCMP and Quebec Crime Commission, which was going on since the early 90's, NO Bonanno links had been found, nor were any Bonannos named , charged or indicted. Are you saying there were no links to the Bonannos as far back as the early 90s? Also, in the case of Montagna, in more than one book, let's say Business Or Blood for example. Its heavily implied, WITH sources which are listed by chapter in the back of the book. That Montagna got the okay to move against the Rizzutos from Ontario and a NY family linked to guys there.
We've learned through very recent drug cases both in Ontario and in NY, that the NY family with links into Ontario are the Gambinos, NOT The Bonannos. So, what has this got to do with the current discussion? I'm still waiting for you to provide a link to those RCMP documents and NY files that list Sciara as consigliere...
"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
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Re: Are the Rizzuto's LCN?
[Re: Sonny_Black]
#872291
01/11/16 05:05 AM
01/11/16 05:05 AM
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,653
Chicago
CabriniGreen
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,653
Chicago
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@ Sonny- You are kinda saying two things at once; In successive post you say, Violi wasn't a boss, Montreal was a Bonnano crew for 50 years, then you kinda say Montreal was always its own family, with Cotroni as "boss" , capo but effectively,on a day to day basis his own boss. If he's a boss, and he goes to jail, and Violi was his number 2, then Violi woulda been an acting boss? Or acting Capo? I think you might be confusing Cotronis crew with Rizzutos organization. Do you consider them the same entity? Cause Violi complained a lot about Rizzuto basically bringing over his own men and operating like a separate group, do you still consider these to be part of the same syndicate? I for one don't ......
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Re: Are the Rizzuto's LCN?
[Re: Sonny_Black]
#872293
01/11/16 05:20 AM
01/11/16 05:20 AM
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,653
Chicago
CabriniGreen
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,653
Chicago
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And I Think you read too much into this guy, who is clearly just a drug dealer, he's not made or nothing, no one in Canada woulda been taking ORDERS from him...
I said it before, you can't overlook the drug component Sonny, the Colombians had the biggest Cartels in the world, they used the Mexicans as mules, it only took ten years or so for the situation to be completely reversed. But you think it can't happen in the mafia, why? Cause it's the mafia? Sonny drug trafficking does not bend and warp to fit the mysticism and rules of mafia tradition, all examples in real life show its the other way around, that it's the Mafia rules, traditions that get bent, warped and manipulated to fit in with drug trafficking.. Drugs made ndrangheta the most potent mafia in the world, while a focus on territorial control, and crazy violence made Sicily a shadow of its former self...
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Re: Are the Rizzuto's LCN?
[Re: Sonny_Black]
#872309
01/11/16 11:42 AM
01/11/16 11:42 AM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,841
SinatraClub
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,841
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Err, I just posted an excerpt of a NY file that was in relation to the Bananas war on the last page in which Greco is id'ed as a lieutenant. Or do you presume I somehow created this document? What has that got to do with with Pietro Sciara..? I also literally had JUST said to you that Mafia Inc. also ID's Sciara as a Cotroni & Violi appointed Consigliere. Which you can read yourself on pg. 93. Or do you assume these guys had no sources for their information and that they had no idea what they were talking about? They do state that. But the fact of the matter is that Violi was not an official boss and Sciara was a member of a different family, which they also confirm. None of the info or links posted in this thread is distorted. All your ramblings about Rizzuto and Violi are from the top of your head instead of the book which is distorted information. You've been doing this on the other forums as well. You also cannot deny the fact that in numerous investments around the world, of the Rizzutos and Montreal, has NO Bonanno links. You must be delusional, because there is plenty of evidence that there are links between the Rizzutos and Bonannos. The FBI for instance listed Vito as a soldier in the Bonanno family. And then there is this: http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada...ls-cocaine-ringhttp://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada...prosecutors-sayhttp://nypost.com/2013/04/29/bonanno-cri...-nyc-drug-ring/http://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/alle...rs-imprisonmenthttp://www.dea.gov/divisions/nyc/2013/nyc050613.shtmlYou also cannot deny the fact that throughout numerous investigations by the RCMP, joint investigations between the RCMP and Quebec Crime Commission, which was going on since the early 90's, NO Bonanno links had been found, nor were any Bonannos named , charged or indicted. Are you saying there were no links to the Bonannos as far back as the early 90s? Also, in the case of Montagna, in more than one book, let's say Business Or Blood for example. Its heavily implied, WITH sources which are listed by chapter in the back of the book. That Montagna got the okay to move against the Rizzutos from Ontario and a NY family linked to guys there.
We've learned through very recent drug cases both in Ontario and in NY, that the NY family with links into Ontario are the Gambinos, NOT The Bonannos. So, what has this got to do with the current discussion? I'm still waiting for you to provide a link to those RCMP documents and NY files that list Sciara as consigliere... You posted five links, which were all discussing the same investigation. In which no Rizzuto members were ever charged or indicted in. The Cournoyer case is well known, however that isn't an example of the Rizzutos and The Bonannos working hand in hand, so my point stands. It really comes off as if Cournoyer was sold drugs by The Rizzutos and Hells Angels, specifically marijuana, which he in turn, sold to Taloni to traffic on the West Coast. Cournoyer also sold the same drugs he bought to Valenoiz, who operated out of Jaguar 6, in the name of Vinny Green, whom was delivered the drugs by Valenoiz. The Valenoiz guy or however he spelled his name, was indicted in the case for allowing his club to be used basically as a drug spot, or a traffickers HQ, and what caught him up was his bragging of Cournoyer, not the Rizzutos or anyone linked to them, having basically a standby account to hire hitmen to get rid of rats. Which actually never came into fruition. Cournoyer was a Rizzuto customer. Who had the same intuition as most street level, yet profitable dealers, who sell the drugs they buy, to others as opposed to using them. There was no evidence in that case of Bonanno men, getting their drugs directly from Rizzuto or any of his men. NONE. Racine was also connected to Cournoyer and oversaw his warehouses and possibly was Cournoyers stable link to Valenoiz and Vinny Green, a mere Bonanno soldier. Cournoyer did buy drugs from Mexican cartels and possibly exchanged this cocaine to the Rizzutos and HA's for the marijuana. Thats what seems to be his link to the rizzutos & associates of the Angels. Keep in mind the Rizzutos were major traffickers of heroin and not cocaine, and after Desjardins was out, Rizzuto or his men simply needed a new cocaine connection to capitalize on the drugs popularity. Cournoyer seems to have met that demand, but was given marijuana in exchange. Again, theres no evidence to support hand in hand interaction between the Rizzutos and NY Bonannos. The FBI listed Rizzuto as a Bonanno soldier, so what.Vitale confirmed that wasn't the entire case with his very own court testimony. Capeci used to write this too in his articles, but was forced to change his thoughts on the matter, after being contacted by numerous Canadian authors and former law enforcement about not fully understanding what goes on in Montreal. Its possible that the FBI had little idea as well. Which they didn't until Vitale testified saying that Rizzuto was supposed to answer to Massino, but had effectively created his own splinter group. The point with Greco and what exactly it has to do with Sciara is the fact that you're claiming Sciara wasn't a Consigliere in Montreal, because Montreal had no bosses, or ranks. Yet Greco is ID'ed by an FBI file in relation to the Bonanno War as a Cotroni lieutenant. Disputing that claim of yours right there. You're also being majorly hypocritical, by saying Sciara couldn't of been a Consigliere for Violi & Cotroni, because he was a member of a Sicilian Family. Yet refusing to acknowledge that Nicolo was a member of a Sicilian family, who brought his son into the Mafia. But are labeling them simply as Bonanno members. Like, seriously? You also fail to understand what I'm saying by mentioning what the book says and the sources that state Sciara was a Violi/Cotroni Consigliere. Mafia Inc. & The Sixth Family make this claim, their sources are FBI, RCMP and Quebec Crime Commission documents, which they listed in the back of both books, which they had access to, which they didn't just pull out of the ass and list. Access that I currently don't have because I'm currently unable to pay for said documents. What I do have access to, I've posted numerous times over to support my points made in this thread and others. The Montagna/Ontario/Gambino connection, has everything to do with this. Because the Bonannos sending him is a theory mentioned, which I've personally seen you acknowledge and support on forums like The Black Hand and The Real Deal. Now please, tell me, what is this distorted information thats in this thread that isn't in books, but "off the top of my head"?
Last edited by SinatraClub; 01/11/16 12:09 PM.
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Re: Are the Rizzuto's LCN?
[Re: SinatraClub]
#872356
01/11/16 07:33 PM
01/11/16 07:33 PM
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
Sonny_Black
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
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You posted five links, which were all discussing the same investigation. No shit. I posted five separate "sources" about a recent investigation that linked Montreal and the Bonannos. You claimed that there were no investigations 'around the world' that showed a link between them. The FBI listed Rizzuto as a Bonanno soldier, so what.Vitale confirmed that wasn't the entire case with his very own court testimony. As a matter of fact Vitale did confirm that Vito was a soldier in the Bonanno family otherwise he wouldn't have offered him to become capo in the first place.  The point with Greco and what exactly it has to do with Sciara is the fact that you're claiming Sciara wasn't a Consigliere in Montreal, because Montreal had no bosses, or ranks. Yet Greco is ID'ed by an FBI file in relation to the Bonanno War as a Cotroni lieutenant. Disputing that claim of yours right there. It still has nothing to do with Sciara. Not to mention that lieutenant isn't even an official title. Greco was however at some point acting capo of the Montreal crew. Violi took over that role after Greco died. You're also being majorly hypocritical, by saying Sciara couldn't of been a Consigliere for Violi & Cotroni, because he was a member of a Sicilian Family. Yet refusing to acknowledge that Nicolo was a member of a Sicilian family, who brought his son into the Mafia. But are labeling them simply as Bonanno members. Like, seriously? They were labeled as Bonanno members by Tommaso Buscetta, maybe you've heard of him. And I actually believe in the possibility that Nick Rizzuto was inducted into the Manno clan before he transfered to the Bonannos in Canada. You also fail to understand what I'm saying by mentioning what the book says and the sources that state Sciara was a Violi/Cotroni Consigliere. Mafia Inc. & The Sixth Family make this claim, their sources are FBI, RCMP and Quebec Crime Commission documents, which they listed in the back of both books, which they had access to, which they didn't just pull out of the ass and list. Access that I currently don't have because I'm currently unable to pay for said documents. What I do have access to, I've posted numerous times over to support my points made in this thread and others. I really don't care what sources are supposedly listed in the back of a book. Anybody can make that claim. You have to be able to show those specific sources that support your statements, otherwise it has no validity whatsoever.
"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
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Re: Are the Rizzuto's LCN?
[Re: CabriniGreen]
#872357
01/11/16 07:43 PM
01/11/16 07:43 PM
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
Sonny_Black
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
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@ Sonny- You are kinda saying two things at once; In successive post you say, Violi wasn't a boss, Montreal was a Bonnano crew for 50 years, then you kinda say Montreal was always its own family, with Cotroni as "boss" , capo but effectively,on a day to day basis his own boss. If he's a boss, and he goes to jail, and Violi was his number 2, then Violi woulda been an acting boss? Or acting Capo? I think you might be confusing Cotronis crew with Rizzutos organization. Do you consider them the same entity? Cause Violi complained a lot about Rizzuto basically bringing over his own men and operating like a separate group, do you still consider these to be part of the same syndicate? I for one don't ...... I don't think that you understand what I've posted even though I tried to explain it as clearly as possible. I suggest that you start looking for the meaning of the phrase 'in their own right'.
"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
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