very true.. tragic.....lose a child.tough... tore had big let downs,if that sounds right, his father getting life, the beef and aftermath, scores pinch, then his last one, squeeze in jr gotti and greg nonsense...good thing he got a break with that judge and kept a ton of $ ..the G will never take his name off any chart..stays in the south he will be fine..i hope . good guy

there is no levels of ratting... if you give up information youre a rat. whether youre secretly informing, do a proffer session, or full on get on the stand and point fingers..its all the same thing. I cant stand when people say well hes not as bad as a rat as so and so..

Agree with everything. ESPECIALLY "the letdowns." You know him, it sounds right.

hope he can catch a break with his father

Christy Tick got a compassionate release. A piece of shit rapist with more bodies on him than Frankie's entire crew. But Frankie has the Gotti stigma attached to him for life. I hope so, too. But I'd be shocked.

yeah that was a really fucked up situation.. talk about a son paying for his fathers sins.. just messed up all the way around.. really shows how cut throat that life can be.

@dsbaloo

That kid was about ten years younger than I am. But I knew him all his life. He grew up in Bronxville, which is one of the most affluent towns on the East Coast. He went to private schools. He was a nice kid whose only connection to the life was his last name. Trust me when I tell you that. He had ZERO ambitions on being a wiseguy. And, believe it or not, his father never would have allowed it anyway because the kid was so close to his mother. Neither of them have been the same since. But like I said, the other guy didn't realize what he set in motion. He shouldn't have gone back to the restaurant. It was a bad judgement call on his part. He would have won at the table and the dead kid's father would have lost a stripe at the very least. He went from being right to being wrong. But it changed him. A lot.

"We only kill each other." ---- A steaming hot pile of horseshit.

thanks for the response.. yeah I could imagine the toll that took on tore knowing he set it in motion probably without knowing how it would end up.. I sure know that would fuck with my head..

the kids dad is who he is..but I cant help but think about how he must still feel to this day knowing that his actions are what wound up getting his son killed.. talk about guilt.. like I said obviously the father is who he is and is no saint.. but fuck.. talk about baggage and guilt.. must still eat him up to this day.. and everyday for that matter. still kind of crazy to me that it really went down the way it did. what was the general opinion among all the guys after that happened? Ive always been curious about that.

That it was fucked up. But that the kid's father broke the biggest rule there is. He not only smacked a made guy. But a guy who was already an acting skipper at the time. It all happened just after Gotti and Frankie got sentenced. And it came to a head less than a year later. But Frankie hadn't run out of appeals at that point, so his son was acting for him. Like I said, they would have won at the table. But Tore went back. It was a bad judgement call. But keep in mind that he was still in his early thirties at the time, a bit young for the spot, and he just lost his father for life. He'll regret it for the rest of his life. There were no winners there. But it should also be noted that at least two of the Albanian kid's family members got hit. One of them IN ALBANIA. Like I said, no winners. One of the biggest cautionary tales in the history of the Bronx mob.

No kidding, they even killed the Albanian's alibi.

You know ,pb.,,i've benn reading u 4a short time,as long as the measly time i've been posting..& every time I read your know how on every f---- thing that u explain ,I'm inspired. I understand u r a vet poster, all i fuckin'know is the philly shit , but u have a way with everything that's goin' on around u if u don't my my saying..between u & SERP ,I don't know who's more fun 2 read..forgive me if I sound like a babe in the woods,but..I only got about 25 yrs. in this biz.. I was at scarfo's house back in 93 when i should'nt have been peekin' through the windows..Tory Scafidi, that motherfuck.. threw my women's running suit rack in to the fuckin' street back in 84'over a no exchange argument w/his little sister (i had no idea who he was at that time)..@Broad & Passyunk..& that jitbag, nicky crow,tried 2 rob me of a mere 320.00 in clothing sales money..I was just a 22 yr. old kid trying 2 make a buck workin' 4 this jew dude who set me up on the corners of certain money makin' spots w/great a rack of whatever was hot @the the time..gloria vanderbilt black denim jeans @12.00 a pop,,right out of the case .. goose down coats for 25.00..slight irregs..u remember??

true

I agree to some extent but certainly NO coward

If he were that scared- he would have HID in his house like Demeo crying yo his son everyday/ sitting in the dark going pale like he did

& people say Roy had brass balls... As for Gotti, it was kill or be killed just like Demeo or any other underling that got whacked. Difference is, Gotti showed big balls to put together a hit & I'm not implying he would have done it alone

Had Frankie decicco, Joe piney & possibly Sammy n Dibee not gone along, John would have accepted his fate. He was finished either way and decided to take a gamble

& I know others are going to say "but Paul was at height of his power when he whacked Roy but weakest when he got hit" yes I know but u get the picture....

I think you are giving Gotti too much credit. Lets be honest without Gravano and Decicco Gotti wouldn't have done a damn thing. Secondly paul was at his weakest moment as boss so he was very vulnerable.

Disagree.

Compare/contrast Sonny Black with Gotti.
Both captains who's crew fucked up demanding consequence.
One accepted responsibility and went in when called.
Knowing the probable outcome and shouldering the repercussions.

The other acted out of fear and self preservation.
Broke his oath to his boss.
Motivation was purely self centered.


One is courage the other is a coward.

Im sure you can figure out which is which.

Something I found interesting, which is news to me that has to relate to this thread. Supposed Gotti actually went along with the panel thing that Castellano proposed to him? Gotti wasn't the only one who rose through the ranks and was being considered and talked about as being the next boss. Castellano also had Thomas Gambino in mind as his successor, as well as Tommy Bilotti. But to keep peace, he proposed a three man panel, Gambino, Bilotti & Gotti. But Gotti refused it and thought Castellano was mocking him by making such an offer. Pure ego obviously. But I tend to think the Gambino's would've been in a lot better shape than they were after Gotti, had Gambino had a say in running things.

Tommy Gambino being on the panel would have been a figurehead position, Sinatra. Even after Gotti olive branched Connecticut to him, Braciole was the true power there. Bilotti was a moronic goon. Had Paul suggested a panel that included either Piney or Jimmy Brown, Gotti wouldn't have been so fast to reject it because they were both too well respected. Paul gets life with the other bosses in The Commission Case, and Gotti doesn't have to worry so much about the tapes. Of course, Jimmy and Piney would have eventually killed him and put Danny in the spot, then they disband the panel, step aside for advisory roles, in favor of the younger Marino as official boss. That's always been my belief.

Marino's been out about a year now.

PB any knowledge of activity since then? Resumed old role etc?

I'm working on an email to you. It's still in my drafts folder. But you'll get it today for sure.

John Gotti was cosa nostra 100% he was a man"s man. When it came to the feds he would tell them to go & fuk themselves. John always said that there will never be another John Gotti & when im gone there gonna miss John Gotti.... John didn't flip because he was a True Gangster 100%.. !!!!!!!!!!!!!! End of story......

let me take a wild guess....you are a huge john gotti fan lol. I suggest really doing good reserach on gotti because you would see he wasnt as great as you make him out to be.

I agree about the Piney and Failia thing. And I know what you mean, I think in Gotti's mind, Gambino would've just been a spiritual capo, meaning not the real power. But reading Mob Star, it seems like Castellano really had some weight in Tommy G, the book implies it was mostly because of his ability to earn, but do you think had things went down the way Castellano proposed, which may have been highly unlikely, which was him being the Carmine Persico of the Gambino's, having the final say from prison, that maybe Tommy would've had some real say in decision making? Like, if Gotti had agreed to the panel, and Castellano having final say, the way things were going it may have been Gotti going to visit him or a relative like Gambino. I'd lean more toward the relative. Bilotti, we can forget about , he was a goon and nothing more. Maybe if Paul had been smarter, Piney or Failia, either or, would've taken Bilotti's spot, and with one of those guys along with Gambino & Gotti, with Castellano serving a nearly life sentence in prison, yet still over seeing the family, I think possibly the family could've thrived a lot more than it did during the Gotti years. That's just my opinion though. Then again, I don't think Gambino was all that enthusiastic about Mafia life at the time, but continued to serve solely because he felt it was an obligation to his father, mother and everyone else before them who carried the Gambino name.

Anything's possible, FS. But if I'm living in an Upper East Side town house, with grown children who have attended private schools, to chase the Corleone-like dream of legitimicy, I'm not jumping in. But that's just me. However, if you've heard how happy Tommy is out west, I think you"d agree. The guy took up golf! lol

Happy Thanksgiving, FS. This year I'm grateful for the quality posters that are still posting here. And you're right near the top of the list.

Best,

PB

If we r doing the hypothetical thing then would joe N Gallo not be in a position of power on the panel or administration as he already was

Completely different scenario

Yes Sonny black knew he was in trouble BUT he also knew it could go 2 ways- just like any wiseguy who gets "called in". No one in that family had experienced anything similar before- so it was all new to Sonny. He reported it to Big Paul, then got sent for within his family. Stevie beef Canone was bought along to put Sonny at ease. He trusted Stevie beef

Ok much as been made of Sonny taking off his ring & car keys and giving it to his favourite bartender BUT that doesn't mean he 100% knew he was going to die- again, plenty of guys do that routine when they get sent for and know they're in trouble

When Mike Francese got sent for & suggested to his old man they go together (accused of withholding millions) do u think Michael turned up wearing his diamond encrusted watch & million dollar pinkie ring? NO CHANCE! The only ones that turn up & then get jewellery taken from their corpse are those who were set up unknowingly (Gaspipe used to tell his hitters to bring him all the dead guy's money & jewellery)

So Sonny took a gamble & lost plus unlike Gotti (I know your suggesting Sonny accepted his fate) whereas Gotti didn't and "acted out of fear" as u like to say

But when I say different scenario- Unlike the Gambino's there wasn't 2 sides from Sonny's point of view. Well yes there was but what I mean is, he was on the one side with powers to be... Rusty, Fat Joey etc therefore it's not like he could strike out at them seeing they're his strength & power to begin with.

Gotti on otherhand was loyal to Neil & had the support to make a move against Paul- Sonny didn't have that pleasure

& I'm not sure why u are so strung up with this "Gotti done it for self preservation/ fear", isn't that what the mob is all about. Sonny black took part in the hit against Galante because Rusty was crying about losing his seat from jail.

Then Sonny took part in the 3 captains murder AGAIN to hold onto power & not let them take over. All for the GREEN is what it boils down to not to mention- they were all scared when they heard the 3 Capo's were loading up

So is Sonny a coward too in that sense?

It's a pointless argument because Napolitano was killed for an entirely different reason than what Paul was going to whack Gotti for.

If one of Chin's or Ducks's soldiers was caught on tape talking about one of them the way Ruggiero was caught talking about Castellano at that time, what do you think would have happened? They never would have seen '84 let alone '85.

Now, as far as who was truer CN. It was Napolitano. Now, I always give Gotti his due for being a stand-up guy. But he was a criminal to the core, whereas Napolitano and others were Cosa Nostra to the core.

Obv its a diff scenario.

But youre missing the point.
Sonny went in when called because as PB said, he was Cosa Nostra. He understood he was part of a bigger thing.

Gotti did what he did because he was all about John Gotti.

Thats the diff.

And one takes courage, the other is a selfish coward.

And DONT try and tell me Sonny didnt know he was going to get hit.
In those days you could get hit for TALKING to an FBI agent.
Sonny brought one into his crew, introduced him to bosses and sponsered him for his button. A Fed.
And you think he didnt know he was going to get hit?
Please.

This.

First of all, I think Tony Pro was joking. Second of all, it WAS an Albanian shooter. But it was off the reservation, and he thought he'd be doing someone powerful a favor so that person would feel ingratiated to to him. He was wrong all the way around.

I never said Sonny didn't know he was going to get hit, of COURSE that was a real possibility BUT according to the testimony of Lino Stevie Beef was NOT told about the hit. As soon as the basement door opened Lino and another guy stopped Stevie beef going down by shutting the door and throwing Sonny down

Sonny was under the impression he was going for a sit down and YES of course he knew he was possibly going to get hit (what a stupid thing to say) sorry I don't mean that in a disrespectful way but isn't that the OBVIOUS?

If I've messed up at the office & the board of directors send for me, I would be a real dummy to turn up thinking we're going to discuss Disneyland??? Of course I KNOW I'm in trouble but at the same time I'm secretly hoping we can work it out somehow- and that's exactly why Sonny turned up

Plenty of guys have shown up for the same reasons. When the 3 capo's went to meet the other faction they decided NOT to bring arms (u telling me they thought they were going to debate global politics) ?? They damn well knew there was a death wish right there YET still went unarmed out of some BS rule about not carrying arms to a meeting

And who turned up with enough fire power to launch a small war? Sonny black & Fat Joey that's who so enough of this "Sonny was more LCN than Gotti will ever be"

Now I'm not slating Sonny- he was man enough to go to the meet & face possible death but again plenty of guys have done just that! And ALL of these guys turned up secretly hoping things can get smoothed over.