Don't bite my head off but...https://books.google.com/books?id=wAyRzj6j3zEC&pg=PA645&lpg=PA645&dq=five+families+bonnanos+1998+150+15+crews&source=bl&ots=ch_LBiF4iu&sig=LYolodU9IC-oC7LwUvbuD2SCIRA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCoQ6AEwBWoVChMI-vvIq7qoyAIVA5yACh1IZgbC#v=onepage&q=five%20families%20bonnanos%201998%20150%2015%20crews&f=false
This says they had over 150 in 1998.....
And everyone reveres this book so.....

https://books.google.com/books?id=wAyRzj...ews&f=false
Don't know why the link didn't work.....

As far as which families were what, I don't know:
I read The Morello book, they said at no point did Maranzano have more men than masseria, or even money, yet he won the war cause he had soldiers whose loyalty was based on pride more than money. The CAstellamarre click stuck together, this made MAranzano more powerful than Masserria when war broke out, even though his family was smaller and had less money.
The Luchesses were small, but I think pound for pound they kept pace or made as much money as any family, so their members (I could be wrong) were probably on average richer than the average wise guy, does this make them a weaker or stronger family?
It seems to me if the 1998 Bonnanos can have 150, it's reasonable for the 1950-60s BOnnanos to have 180-190 or whatnot. Remember, they coulda had a lotta zips too...
The GAmbinos seem to have always been the biggest numbers wise, but does that make them automatically number 2? But under DAquila they were first? I get confused about this...
I've been trying to diagram a map of power on this time period for a while now, it's still confusing..

I'm aware of the 150 members estimates for the Bonannos by the early 2000s. I think they were a little inflated.

In 2001, the feds released a no contact list for Robert Lino that included all 111 known Bonanno members (including Lino himself oddly enough). Frank Lino testified the family had 12 captains and 100 soldiers in 2003. Add a 3 man administration and you're looking at 115 members. And wiretaps for the Basciano case in 2006 revealed the family had less than 100 soldiers then. Even if we go with 99 soldiers, and throw in another dozen or so administration and captains, it doesn't come to 150 members.

How about Joquin GArcia saying the Gambinos had 26 crews? How does that work? How many soldiers you think that would equate to?

I've read that the gambino had 30 captains...

I think you can see why I try to read as much as possible, but kinda draw my own conclusions a little bit, like everyone respects the five families book, so is the guy a hack? Probably not, just a mistake I guess, but he's supposed to know right? Lol

Masseria was considered the strongest boss. And the crime family head took over had long been considered the top family.

For being one of the smaller families, the Luccheses did have extensive rackets, including considerable union clout.

The Genovese and Gambinos were always close in terms of size. At some point along the way, maybe the 1970s, the Gambinos were considered the bigger organization though not substantially so. The Genovese became the bigger organization in the 1990s but not by much. Today both are said to have around 200 members.

26 crews seems like a bit of a stretch. During Gotti's reign there were 21 crews. Later, during the 1990s, the family was down to 10 or 12 fully functioning crews at one point. While I believe they have more than that now, 26 seems high. As I said above, 200 total members is the estimate.



Not at all. Raab is one of the best mob journalists out there, right up there with Capeci, Anastasia and Robbins. But his figures have always been on the big side. You'll notice in chapter 28 of the book, which is after the Commission case in the mid 1980s, he has the Gambinos at 400 members. In one 1995 article he said the family had gone from 400 to 200 members in the last 5 years. Not sure how that's even possible. In the book and article, he had the Genovese family at 300 members which also seems inflated for that time.

i dont jack said that the feds had 23 capos in there wcharts that was 2004 and that he informed the feds about three capos they did not even know existed

the feds did not even have louie fillpeni as anything to do with the mob (even though he was a made guy who reported directly to arnold) alphonse as a low level soldier but jack said the investigation said he was a capo not a soldier. They did not even know alphonse crew existed


i think jack falcone will know how many capos there are seeing as he was in the gambino family for two years he said at the beginning of the investigation he arguared constantly with the higher ups in the feds because the feds kept saying its not on pur chart it cant be real


the feds did not even have jo jo corezzo as consgleire and arnold as boss and tony megale as underboss


embarrassing really


jack will know better than any of us. That 12 full functioning crews was an exaggeration by rabb and the feds looking for there headlines

the FBI did not seem to realize that the guys who got arrested were replaced the feds started to believe there own headlines

But see Ivey that's what I mean, MAsseria was seen as the strongest boss, UNTIL they went to war, then it became clear he was actually no match for MAranzano, esp after Morello was killed.
What makes you number one, having the biggest family, making the most money, or having the better army? History has shown force beats money, Gotti- CAstellano, Casso/Amuso vs the Harlem Bronx guys, Corleonesi vs BOntade families, there are other examples but you get my point.
To me power is water, not stone.
Like MAssino was considered top boss in the late 90s, but it was a prestige thing, not based on family size or wealth, for me the question of power is where it gets interesting...

Masseria was betrayed. The war would have dragged out another year or so in a stalemate with the lose of men and money on both sides and chances are LCN would not have the big grip they had on the unions later on.
On the topic of Jack Garcia, he was not the only agent that gave the feds information about a crime family that the feds disbelieved and cast it a side. They did it a couple of times, when Joe Pistone said that Carmine Persico was calling the shots in the Colombo family instead of Tom DiBella, and said that Nick Guastella remained with Joe Bonanno instead of switching to San Jose. Pistone said the Bonanno family had 17 crews, and after Galante was killed two of the crews were disbanded and it's members were placed in other crews. That Just the FBI, The Bureau of Narcotics had an agent get close to John Ormento in the Lucchese crime family, during mid 1950s. He gave The Bureau of Narcotics these numbers in 1956, Anastasia 350, Bonanno 200+ Galante has a crew in Canada, Costello 400+ A crew on the West coast, Lucchese 240+ A crew in Los Angeles, and Profaci 160+ A crew in California Bay Area.

This: it's the only thing me and Ivey bump heads on, is that LE does sometimes get stuff very wrong, also you have respected guys in the know, who apparently don't know lol
I respect Raab too, as well as CApeci and ANastasia, but the word on this site is that Capeci is losing it and ANastasias on a money grab, sooooo.....
Do we disregard em?
Like I said I try to read a lot, then read into what I read lol...

Also, GIacomo I had no idea ALL the five families had a crew in LA at the same time, that's why I love this site...
I was going to comment on the number of guys in the Cali fams, but that explains a lot, I was baffled at San JOse having more members than say NEw ORleans, considering the large Sicilian population there, as well as that being like the original mafia family...
I agree with you on MAsseria, MAranzano was strong when he was at war, but all that Caesar shit woulda got him killed by maybe even BOnnano eventually...

Retrospect, that must be why they got so mad at bonnano trying to claim Cali for himself....

Yeah, like if it came from Ormento it has to be legit right? The fbn was the only agency on their shit;
You look at those numbers, it's like there is a whole bother five families we know nothing about, it's pretty interesting right?
Like how much do we really know?

San Jose did have a lot of members that came through Goosetown, with some of them staying. When Sebastian Nani of the Profaci family was deported, Vincenzo Figlia transferred to San Jose followed by Salvatore Cerrito a year later, the Ditri brothers brother in law transferred to San Francisco when Nani left. Tony Ditri transferred from the Bonanno family to San Jose in 1964, Daniel Ditri was not made till the 1970s into the San Jose family, but the west coast families had a lot of transplants. Keep in mind that there are a lot of family relations with these families. As for Bonanno in California, he had the bay area in his grip since 1946, he had a crew in Arizona and a crew in Santa Clara County, but I don't believe he had a crew in the Los Angeles area, but a couple of soldiers, most notably Antonio Bello who's son became a made man in the Los Angeles family, and it was Antonio who tried to get Frank Bompenseiro to kill Frank DeSimone and implicate Joe Bonanno in it. There was also a Bonventre who was a soldier and was to keep an eye on Bello. The most notable member is Charles Battaglia who was made in the Los Angeles family and transferred to the Bonanno family.

I'll ask again, did these numbers include the Montreal crew? It's stated in either the Sixth Family or Mafia Inc. (probably both) that the Bonannos had 150 members including Montreal in the early 80s. I'm not sure what sources were used for these figures and perhaps these were simply based on the 15 capos they had at the time (a capo originally being in charge of ten soldiers). I'll also have to add to my previous statement that another guy with Sciacca said the Bonannos had 100 members after which Sciacca said 180. Sciacca was the current acting boss at the time.

I'm fairly conservative when it comes to total numbers for the families and think that they may have always had pretty much the same numbers. A number cap of 300 for the Genoveses and Gambinos and 150 for the three smaller families sounds believable to me. Yet the 180 members statement by Sciacca doesn't sound like being pulled out of thin air. Also I find it quite odd that according to D'Arco the Colombos were allowed to have more members than the Luchesses and Bonanno.

It could be that maybe Profacis prestige granted him a kind of seniority?
You know, a thought just occurred to me. Could it be that the larger numbers of made men in the past is like, directly proportionate to Lcn political corruption at the time?
If it's easier to make a payoff, it's easier to guarantee territory, easier to hold sit downs?
Just a thought...

Prestice in what exactly, olive oil? Profaci's family may have been the youngest and possibly an offshoot of the Gambinos. As for seniority, he was of the same age as the other bosses and nothing special compared to them. A decade before he became boss he was a merchant selling fruit.

In the Donald Trump smoking gun papers Carmine sessa who flipped in 93 said that the colombos in 1991 had exactly 100 guys. So I wonder today if even with probaly 25 of them in prisons if there's still 100. Sonny fransese was inducted guys in groups of 6 when he was on the street then the guy deleo inducted like 7 more if there sticking to there 100 cap. But since 1991 I'm guessing 20 guys flipped and the rule was you can't replace a rat or a guy who got whacked you maybe there cap is 80?

i think the amount of colombos on the street would be around 80-90 made guys

They weren't saying the Gambinos were down to 10 or 12 crews. They said 10 or 12 crews out of the 21 in the family were fully functioning in the years immediately following Gotti's conviction. Gravano did a lot of damage, including help convict 7 Gambino captains. Those other crews didn't vanish but they were in a state of disarray and not functioning fully for a time.



Like I said before, 180 members in the 1950s and 1960's is believable if you go with the higher end estimates.

150 in the early 1980s seems high for that time period. You'll notice that the figures I posted above were after the death of Sciascia when the Rizzutos were said to have broken off from the Bonannos. But even if that break never actually happened, or even if we do not include the Montreal crew in the figures above but add them now, it still doesn't come to 150.

100 members may have been the number of members at that time but not the max the family could have. The family has had 16 members flip by my count. In 2004, there were 112 known members and more recent estimates have been around 100 or so. I don't think their cap is below 100, let alone 80.

Massino was considered the top boss in the late 1990s and early 2000s basically by default. The others were in prison by then and he had seniority. But that certainly didn't make the Bonannos the strongest family.

As for Masseria, most historians seem to think he was the top boss before and during the war. In his case, that was probably due to the fact he headed the strongest family.

According to Bonnano Family Underboss Sal Vitale there were 150 members and a almost a thousand associates...also that there were 18 made members of the Montreal Crew....this is direct from testimony...nobody can question the veracity of his statements he was the underboss and go to guy of the boss for realistically almost 17 years


I don't ever believe the gambino family was ever less than 20 crews. ..that was a newspaper article.mikey scars said 22 capos and that was in 2002....

Massino was top boss but his family was never the richest or largest...gambino and Genoese had them beat,probably luccheses to cause of construction and jersey.... What they did have gooing was everybody was very wealthy. .....coppa and Lino were capos on the street for almost 20 years straight. Massino, Vitale and spero ran that family from 86 on......

I don't recall Vitale saying 150 members. But knowing you as I do, either way you'll go with 150 because it's the bigger number. Meanwhile, you'll ignore that Frank Lino said the family had 12 captains, 100 soldiers, and 200-500 associates in 2003. The list of 111 Bonnano members released in 2001 was a year before the first guy would flip but I doubt there were 40 members flying under the radar. And then by the 2006 Basciano case wiretaps showed the family had less than 100 soldiers. The figures I posted seem to correlate with each other while 150 is an outlier. And if there were 150 when Vitale flipped in 2001, where did the rest go by 2003 or 2006?

Ivy probaly right about 100 they got all bk and Staten island for recruits and they probaly have more guys in prison then any family.Carmine and Allie have alot of clout. And agree hay if massino was as powerful as Peter gotti why wasn't he get the Brooklyn dock ila money and all them other unions. Fucking hate Arron Rodgers. I did read vitale saying in court they had 150 guys and tried to get more but Peter gotti said were you finding these guys and said no. That's when they said replace dead guys and 2 at xmis or so.

Even if Vitale did say 150 members you have to weigh it against...

2001 - FBI releases a "no contact" list of all 111 known Bonanno members for Robert Lino.

2002 - 100+ members cited by prosecution in Graziano case.

2003 - Frank Lino testified the family has 12 captains, 100 soldiers, and 200-500 associates.

2006 - wiretaps in Basciano case reveal the family has less than 100 soldiers at that time.

2009/2013 articles - 100 to 115 members cited.

See this is exactly why I get confused:
It's like is it a commission, or really a dictatorship like maranzano?
Cause you see a weak boss, but in AHistory of the Sicilian cosa nostra,it says PRofaci
Was instrumental in mediating a truce between the Grecos from Ciaculli and Giardini, also close to the Villabate boss...
He's older than BOnnano at the time, that's what I meant by seniority, plus their kids married right?
Just like Carlos and LUchesses?
Plus he's got family married into the Detroit family, and BOnnano is family with the Maggadino family.
So what I wonder is how does a COmmision meet go at this time period, I didn't even MEntion MAngano.
Profs I had an airport on his estate if I'm not correct, that's kinda crazy isn't it? Like that a lotta olive oil lol