<LOL

Ok Camarel, it's you, and me!



Salvadore Vizzini traced the serial numbers of money Luciano gave him directly to a heroin deal. The way Vizzini got the money was to ask Luciano for change because he wanted bills in larger denominations. And that's just one piece of evidence. There are others, like the fact that Carlo Gambino was visiting Lucky Luciano in Italy, like the fact that the authorities in Italy claim they were actually about to arrest Luciano for trafficking once and for all, etc etc etc.



The only way for me to reply to this part is to repeat myself. There really isn't much more to add to it. Carlo Gambino was already in a prison of sorts. Think about it. I do think he left the United States, but later on when the heat got turned up, he couldn't leave because the government was looking to nail him on anything, even immigration. So now you know why he acted like a passive old man with a perpetual grin...he was stuck here. Trapped in the mafia, and trapped in the United States.



Naw, Luciano was just "Lucky".

But so was Carlo. That's why we have this thread. If anyone was almost as well situated to control the underworld as Lucky Luciano, it would be individuals such as Carlo Gambino, and the like. Carlo Gambino was situated at the center of power in the world of the mafia due to his pedigree and family ties. Becoming a Capo and patiently putting up with Anastasia's BS also helped a lot. But just like someone said, Luciano was the only individual Anastasia probably feared. Once Luciano went to Italy, Albert started getting out of hand and had to be whacked. If Luciano doesn't go to Italy, Albert lives, and Carlo remains a Captain.



That, was not even necessary. You are taking this way too personally.

That definitely is an interesting way to put it and there is a lot of truth in that. However freedom is still freedom and in prison there surely is NO FREEDOM. I think that perpetual grin was because while he was trapped by lost enforcement and boxed in, he still was FREE and free to continue to be in complete control (Relative) of LCN which is what he always desired.



Bottom line these were the two most powerful bosses ever in LCN. That is pretty much undisputed. I was simply curious to see where everyone stood on these particular two. No we aren't having a fuckin NCAA tournament of Mafia members..



How we go from who had more power in there respective reigns Luciano or Gambino to You using the words "Jerk Off Circle" and "hard" in the same sentence, I think speaks for itself so I'm going to leave that alone.

From not really postin and just watching the boards, there are some guys on here that def kno there stuff so I was just curious what
those would say.

That's true the brain was Luciano/Lansky/Costello

But the perfect balance of Lansky with the finance, Costello with the police corruption and political protection, Genovese with the muscle and Luciano as the unique puzzle piece to fit them all together to create that perfect balance that was never duplicated.

Alfa its really annoying to quote you on my tablet so I'll just C+P your comments bolded.

Salvadore Vizzini traced the serial numbers of money Luciano gave him directly to a heroin deal. The way Vizzini got the money was to ask Luciano for change because he wanted bills in larger denominations. And that's just one piece of evidence. There are others, like the fact that Carlo Gambino was visiting Lucky Luciano in Italy, like the fact that the authorities in Italy claim they were actually about to arrest Luciano for trafficking once and for all, etc etc etc.

The Vizzini part is very interesting and something I'd never heard before. Can I ask where you got that from? When and where has it been conclusively proven that Carlo met Luciano in Italy? By the part you responded to I assume it was after Carlo became boss? Proof for either of these claims would be nice.

The only way for me to reply to this part is to repeat myself. There really isn't much more to add to it. Carlo Gambino was already in a prison of sorts. Think about it. I do think he left the United States, but later on when the heat got turned up, he couldn't leave because the government was looking to nail him on anything, even immigration. So now you know why he acted like a passive old man with a perpetual grin...he was stuck here. Trapped in the mafia, and trapped in the United States.

As you said you are repeating yourself. This is pure speculation, of the faulty kind if you ask me.


Naw, Luciano was just "Lucky". wink

But so was Carlo. That's why we have this thread. If anyone was almost as well situated to control the underworld as Lucky Luciano, it would be individuals such as Carlo Gambino, and the like. Carlo Gambino was situated at the center of power in the world of the mafia due to his pedigree and family ties. Becoming a Capo and patiently putting up with Anastasia's BS also helped a lot. But just like someone said, Luciano was the only individual Anastasia probably feared. Once Luciano went to Italy, Albert started getting out of hand and had to be whacked. If Luciano doesn't go to Italy, Albert lives, and Carlo remains a Captain.

Not sure how any of this relates to anything? How exactly was Luciano the only person Anastasia feared? I know this is all opinions given the small amount of info we have from this time, but sometimes you have to qualify your opinions with..... Something!

That, was not even necessary. You are taking this way too personally.

Wasn't taking it personally at all; not sure how that's possible in my case tbh. Anyway I apologize if I offended you.

I'll take this one.

The assertion that Albert feared/respected Luciano enough to control him was demonstrated by a number of different instances to back up that assertion. Albert was one of the first men to know about Luciano's plan to remove Masseria and switch to Maranzano's faction. He pledged loyalty to Luciano that he would kill whomever necessary for Luciano to get to the top. Evident by him being included in the Masseria hit.

Luciano then chose Albert to lead the Italian faction of Murder Inc. along with Lepke to run the Jewish faction.

One of the proposed murders was the potential murder of Dewey who Dutch Schultz wanted killed. Albert agreed with Dutch and worked out a plan where it was possible to knock off Dewey. Fearing the heat it would bring Luciano would call it off.

Years later after Luciano is deported, Albert who by now is boss of the Gambino family orders the hit on a civilian, Albert Schuster because he "ratted" on a bank robber.

Do you really think it possible that if Luciano called off the Dewey murder because there was too much heat, he would allow Albert to commit an essentially random murder of a state witness that had nothing to do with the Organization.
That perfectly shows the difference Luciano played in Albert's behavior.

Furthermore, Albert played a vital role in the plan to get Luciano sprung from prison...

I could go on and on about the examples that show the level of fear/respect Albert had for Luciano.

My point was the Jersey Genovese were a combination of crews absorbed over time, Zwillmans death no doubt opened up a lot...

Ugh... OK

Everything here needs sourced. Everything you said here is horrible and you should be ashamed .

Ugh.... Toodles

Okay, when u say inferior, you have to take into account who you are talking about.Joe Adonis got paid for every car Ford made. Anastasia had like the whole of the brooklyn docks,half of Profaci's life was a model for the Godfather (Think about that a little while...)Bonnano was a Boss at 26,Luchesse was as politically astute as Costello, as business savvy as Luciano, more low key than both, cunning as Genovese and as feared a killer as Anastasia in his prime. Marcello runs a whole STATE, and Trafficante has the whole carribean basically. Maggaddino controls the canadian border, all kinds of smuggling. Those jewish clevemand mobsters that financed part of vegas? There were Too many heavy hitters back then to call anyone inferior, THIS is what luciano realized, if u try to muscle all these guys you would end up deader than dead...

Bonnano and Luciano (really more Bonnano cause he was way more
'Sicily" than Luciano)helped set up the cupola during that trip to Sicily no?

Fantastic points made Alfa, couple few things though, the cupola backed Luciano cause of Bonnano. Luciano in the U.S. operated whats called a "Power Syndicate" in that he controlled territory and the activities that occured in said territories. In Italy Luciano operated an "Enterprise syndicate" in that he controlled prodution and supply of narcotics but not distribution. This is actually the great problem of narcotics in the mob, when the bossed have vertical and horizontal control, they are for it, but if they dont control supply and distribution eventually a faction gains enough strenght to overpower you. Also to the point of power, Luciano was slapped in the face in Italy by some common thug, now this guy ended up dead, but that shit would of NEVER happened in the states...

Agreed. That grin also meant he was getting away with boatloads of crimes.

You know what, I am really not sure. I read somewhere that Luciano's presence in Italy had a lot to do with the very formation of the Cupola, the Sicilian Commission. I checked the unreliable Wikipedia in regards to your comment, and it says that 1965 was the first time the Cupola became known to the public, not when it began. Does anyone here have an earlier date for it's origin?

Also to the point of Luciano and Italy, Genovese i feel was MUCH better connected there,and once he put his narcotics supply routes together with his control of territory in Manhattan,Power really started to realign in New York. GENOVESE AND Luchesse families running huge dope operations with guys like Ormento and sal mongevero.Bonnano is in this mix too, and Luchesse has the political connects to keep it all quiet. Galante is in there too but his role always seemed murkey to me,i guess he handled importation in montreal, ormrnto distribution in harlem,Genovese had connects to both imports as well as territory,so eventually became the top dope man...

I got it from Salvadore Vizzini's book: Vizzini: The Secret Lives of America's Most Successful Undercover Agent

Vizzini went on to become a very high ranking police official in the United States. He was a member of the DEA before it was called DEA. He was under Anslinger (Luciano: "Asslinger") in the Federal Bureau of Narcotics. He recounted murders he committed in the name of the law in that book, acts of espionage such as blowing up a drug warehouse and kiling everyone in it. Vizzini featured photos of himself and Luciano together in Italy. His cover was an identity named Mike Cerra, a Sicilian American US Airforce pilot. But Vizzini couldn't fly a plane. He wanted to lure Luciano in under the pretense that as a pilot he could probably move weight for him. The point here is that Vizzini backs up what he says, and his story jibes with Luciano's prison break courtesy of the OSS (CIA predecessor), Luciano's hatred for Anslinger, and even the willful blindness of the FBI. Vizzini's story contradicts none of the more well known Lucky Luciano lore.

Putting it all together, I'd say Lucky's contacts in government were in the FBI, OSS, and Navy Intelligence. Carlo's was CIA (OSS).

Can I prove Carlo met Luciano in Italy? Not by the standards of this board and forum. I read it. That's all.

Here, read this...

Carlo Gambino Traveled to Italy to Meet Lucky Luciano

"According to the FBI files:

"During the spring of 1948, reliable information obtained from a Bureau of Narcotics source indicated that CARLO GAMBINO travelled clandestinely to Palermo, Sicily, where he joined his brother, PAUL GAMBINO, who had fled to Italy to avoid prosecution in a Federal alcohol tax case. The GAMBINOS were reported to exercise control over the narcotic smuggling activities between the Mafia element in Palermo and the United States on behalf of SALVATORE LUCANIA and during 1948, both GAMBINO brothers met with LUCANIA at the home of their relatives in Palermo, Sicily. "

I am not sure when it was created, but it surely existed before the Ciaculli massacre in 1963 and the mafia war that started around that time. It was temporarily disbanded after the police crackdowns and the Cupola members being placed on the wanted list. Salvatore Greco was the first chairman. However, this is the provincial Palermo Cupola. As for the Regional Commission which included representatives of all provinces, I am not sure whether it existed before the 60s. Im sure though in some book (maybe the one based on Antonino Carderone's testimony), it was said there have already been a representative of the whole region, somebody named Andrea Fazio from Trapani.
Unfortunately, I don't remember all the details, I don't own many of the books, have to check in libraries again.

Another point i feel has to be made; When Anastasia gets wacked, Carlo is Not the Top Boss yet; Consider that Trafficante was on the scene, also consider that the main cog in getting Albert hit was that he thought cause he was a boss in New York that he was Entitled to a piece of Cuba. DEAD FUCKIN WRONG.This was Trafficantes domain, and if the commision couldnt or wouldnt save him, its a clear indication of This guys POWER AT THAT TIME. Again these were Heavy hitters, u dont "Control" these guys, they respect u based on the fact that that respect is returned, This is what Luciano got that guys like Masseria Maranzano and Genovese didnt or couldnt. Carlo i think becomes top dog in New York at Little Appalacian after Luchesse dies, and even at this point in mob history i think his power is still less than the "JFK THREE", Giancana, Marcello, Trafficante...

Good points, but remember how Anastasia made like he was about to slap Carlo in public and he cringed? Same difference. Good points though about the dynamics of trafficking.

Thanks!

Hey while we are on the subject of Power, does anyone have any kind of clarification on Joe Adonis? He seems to be interchangebly referred to in history as being subbordinate to the bosses (Like he was never Head of a Family)and at a the same time a Commision member, or at least some thing like Vito or Anastasia or Luchesse, like a leuitenant with commision level Power, any thoughts???

Good points about controlling heavy hitters. I think that's mostly right. But what you described is how a boss relates to the heavy hitter, not entirely why they retain superiority over said hitter.

For Luciano to keep someone like Albert in check and in line with his agenda, he not only needed to reciprocate respect with Albert. Albert also needed to understand that Luciano could inflict much worse punishment on Albert than just killing him. On Luciano's level and Lansky's level, reigning over maniacs meant you had to represent the unthinkable.

I personally have concluded that Joe Adonis was a supervisor (Capo) of narcotics trafficking in the NY docks, and later also in Italy after he was deported. I don't have a lot of proof. Drug capos are special capos. They are very rich, and they answer directly to the boss.

Another ive been pondering for a while; You know the story of how Joe the Boss meets with Lucky to get him to join his family and Lucky says eveything in the pot except for the whisky? This never made any sense to me, I think the thing, the reason Joe the Boss wanted him, the real power Luciano brought to the mob, and the Real racket that Luciano was holding back was the Heroine that he Lansky and Rothstien were smuggling from China. I think the Jews had the monopoly, Lucky was close to them and when he started to move shit in manhattan and make that money the Italians got very jealous and started to really putt the pressure on, they might have set him up with those police that scarred him up. This is one of the few things I think they got right on Boardwalk Empire...

Agreed Alfa,Ive read Adonis smuggled dope in Ford Motors across country...

Never heard that before. Doesn't surprise me a bit.

Another good point Alfa reguarding controlling people, its like the great quote from Boarwalk from Nucky Thompson, "How the fuck do you ORDER someone to commit murder?" Its LIKE THE Machiavelli quote,"There can be no proper relation between one who is armed and one who is not; One who is unarmed cannot win the esteem of one who is armed, nor can one who is unarmed ever feel comfort in the company of one who is armed; Basically first off Killers respect killers. After that a guy will listen to you out of a sense of his own well being, its Beneficial for himself to do so.So a guy listens out of fear of what you might do to him, OR losing the resources, lifestyle, and or opportunities you can provide. Anastasias and the like were not afraid of anything on earth. They Follwed Lucky cause they knew Lucky wanted everyone to eat, and they were smart enough to understand this was a rare thing amongst criminals. Contrast this with Profaci who starved his soldiers, AND GOT AWAY WITH IT ONLY CAUSE THE SOLDIERS FEARED RETRUBUTION, CAUSE PROFACI HAD AT LEAST TWO COMMISION MEMBERS THAT FOLLOWED HIS ADVICE, AS WELL AS THE REST OF THE OLD GUARD. AS SOON AS GAMBINO AND LUCHESSE GAVE THE UNDELINGS SOME INDICATION OF COMMISION BACKING, AS SOON AS THEY STOPPED FEARING RETRIBUTION, THEY WENT TO WAR. AS SOON AS GALLO AND HIS CREW REALIZED IT WASNT IN THIER BEST INTEREST TO BE LOYAL, THAT THIER LOYALTY WOULD BE REPAID WITH POVERTY, THAT WAS IT. Gangsters follow other gangsters cause they recognize qualities in others that they dont possess themselves, that leadership, that fearlessness, vision of purpose. People say Gotti was a bad boss and he was, But how many other guys unmade stand up to fuckin Carmine Galante in prison? MAYBE A SELECT FEW IN THE WHOLE FUCKIN MOB TRUTHFULLY. My point being controlling gangsters means understanding peoples desires what they want, Lucky was able to keep albert happy just letting go kill when he want, the guy had more in common with Demeo to me than anyone...

Cute how narcotics are omitted from the original mythology we were taught. Most everyone here knows narcotics were in play in the United States since the earliest days of Cosa Nostra. But narcotics are never mentioned in the Luciano Lanksy Masseria Maranzano tale.

Very true. Can't add nothing to that.

A good example is in Franzese's book; someone in the crew is going to rat and like 6 guys volunteer to kill the guy, and Michael remarks on how dependent they are on him, and desparate to kill, he says a disquieting sense of power overcame him. Now these guys dont FEAR Michael, they fear losing their lifestyle. Moreover I think the Persicos never feared Sonny the killer, Never Feared Michael the earner, but DID FEAR Sonny the killer And Micheal the earner together, which is whythey had them come separatly to the sitdown, once they saw that that they really werent on the same page, they saw them both as easily neutralized. And the Persicos should give lie to any notion of jail diminisging anyone's Power...

Also the meeting between Luciano and Gambinos rings true,cause Lucky needed thier contacts in sicily, and they were close to Luchesse, who was like the only Boss Luciano seemed to actually admire, also explains Luchesses extensive narcotics connects, they probally came from gambino, and explains why Luchesse, Gambino, and Genovese started working together around this time, Later in like 56 0r 57 the Hotel de palmes or whatever meeting happens and Luciano and Bonnano suggest the cupola...