http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/24/banished-mob-italy-mafia-sons-exiled-crime

I remember first reading about this strategy a couple of years ago; I guess it shows how dependent on from-birth indoctrination the Mafia mentality is.

Don thanks for the thread. You make an excellent point, we are a product of our environment and all behavior good and bad is learned. Maybe there should be a 12 step program for these wise guys and wannabes.

I completely agree. Can you guys imagine how tough it is for a child, growing up in that environment, and not following in father´s footsteps. With the indoctrination, everything revolves around the Mafia. It becomes it´s world. I imagine that some early American bosses like Bonanno, Profaci, Gambino etc all went through that. By the time the child gets to be 18, then it´s too late trying to rehabilitate the child into "normal" society. And that´s why it´s wrong to say that these guys, who have been exposed of this indoctrination basically from the minute they were born, are all psychopaths.

If the Italian government is actually going to implement policy like that, they need to start younger.

Over there they are not "wanna bes" . It's more than just seeing your father in that life and thinking, "hey that looks cool, I wanna do that too."
It's more like seeing your father, your brothers, your uncles and every male in your life being either killed or locked up for life. It's the young boy that sees his father get caught after so many years of being on the run, locked up, and can only see his father one hour a month and will never hug or touch him thru the glass so he becomes filled with getting revenge. It's the teenage boy that is in the middle of a turf war, where in Sicily if you have the wrong last name, you're good enough to be killed, so you'd better pick up a gun and be able to protect yourself and your mother/sisters/family, because if not, none of you are off limits and are all dead.
It's mothers that groom their sons to fight for the honor of their family because the boy's father and brothers are in hiding or locked up or dead.

This is all bullshit, there is no rehabilitation. What do these boys come out to go do? Work? There is NO work in Sicily.

As to this article, where the boy comes out of the program and is staring at the sea and suddenly sees everything differently for the first time, I'm gonna have to say get the fuck outta here with that garbage. Nobody's buying that.

This is awful. Seems like a great way to push a vengeful relative to declare war on the people involved in taking kids away..

Still, it's possible there are such exceptions. The sad thing is that they are what they are: exceptions, a minority.

There are very rare exceptions. But those exceptions are the boys that in extremely rare instances will distance themselves from their family to begin with. They will move away, and have little to no contact with their family. Because THAT is the only way. This idea of being rehabilitated is nonsense. You don't change a sicilian boy's way of thinking just by entering a facility like this. The family bond is way too strong. On top of that, if you don't completely abandon your family and distance yourself, even if you lead a legit life, it's still hell. Italian govt is still coming at will to ransack your house, invite themselves to your wedding to see your guests, tap your phone and house, arrest you and seize your goods when they feel like it because they think you are up to no good, and in contact with a relative on the run, etc etc. There is no such thing as coming out of a facility like this, going back to your mafia family and leading a legit life. Where do you work? Who will hire you? How do you say to your father, "no I will not run this envelope for you because I'm a legitimate boy now." lol Nonsense.

But I always had the impression that the Italian state is too much bound to the mafia and shares with it too much interests to be considered 2 completely separate entities on their own. The state IS the mafia with some exceptions that are marginalized or even killed (even though today they calmed down with the massacres).

I mean, the mafiosi and their relatives that get the treatment you described are probably ones that can be "sacrificed" and aren't an important part of the system anymore, the rural mafia especially. Big mafia businessmen and corrupt politicians unfortunately don't get that treatment, today I read in the news a former judge and mayor of Naples has been convicted of "illegally getting information about members' of parliament phone calls" to help his investigations: the privacy of political scum with white collars is considered more important than fight against corruption and organized crime.

The programme has been initiated in Calabria rather than Sicily and the lad featured is from Calabria, not that I'd suggest the situation is in any meaningful way better there than the other side of the Messina Straits.

Here is the original article I read regarding the initiative:
http://mafiatoday.com/sicilian-mafia-ndr...le-of-violence/

The sentiments of the judge seem to anticipate your criticism of it quite presciently, hence his stressing the need of widespread infrastructural investment that can facilitate a sustaining network of monitoring, training, support and job opportunities for these kids once they reach adulthood and potentially give them meaningful options if they decide to turn their backs on crime.

This, given the current state of the Italian economy is sadly a long shot, however at a conceptual level its holistic 'prevention before cure' approach seems to offer more realistic prospects for long term success at actually tackling the trappings of culture that allow the strangling influence of the Mafia(s) to flourish than the mere fire fighting undertaken at present.

As for calling bullshit on the neat 'about-turn' sentiment at the end of the article, well it's a personal interest story, there's always going to be a level of sentimental fluff present, it hardly detracts from the rest of the piece.

is Italy making any progress with the mafia in that country? can you see the day when they eradicate the criminal element, vanity fair magazine had an article about the mafia in naples, and, the message was, its hopeless.

I agree.

Dwalin... I understand how corrupt Italian govt is, you're right. And also you're right, the same rules don't always seem to apply to the big mafia businessmen. But take someone like Messina-Denaro, who's niece got married last week. It was full of un-invited guests. He is not considered a high mafia businessman? His mother's house is constantly being watched. I have been to too many weddings and affairs to count where they are there watching who's doing what and to see if a certain person who they are looking for, pops up. I have family members who's houses are always being invaded just because they want to see if they are in contact with a certain someone.
There is NO need for a warrant to come and throw your house upside down and rummage thru your things. There is NO need for tons of paperwork for them to put a tap on your phone, all because of who your family is. I have a relative, brother of a fugitive, who has always tried to do the right thing, and he left his family, even after witnessing his father's head being blown off with a rifle. They arrested him anyway, when he was in his 30's, held him for nearly a year, hoping to get him for something or smoke his brother out of his hole. They finally decided there is nothing to hold him on, at which time they threw $1600 EU at him for lost time. Guilty until proven innocent. You know all this.

Don Squirrel... The Calabrians and Sicilians are very similar in how they regard their families and loyalties. I did understand the story was of a Calabrian boy.
There is no such a thing as rehabilitation because it is a way of life. You can't rehabilitate someone that hasn't done anything wrong in their mind. You will NEVER change the mind or thinking of any member of those families. There is no mother I know that would give consent to let her boy be taken, not when those same mothers are the ones grooming their boys to avenge their families. How can the state possibly promise to nurture these boys and give them work when they come out? What jobs? You mean give them a fishing boat, give them a shove out to sea, and say "here go make a living".

Don thanks for the link. Hopefully it will help to make a difference.

Yes, I understand, but Messina Denaro is the last one tied to the big massacres of civilians in Rome, Florence and Milan in the 90s, he's already a wanted man for decades, so they have to maintain a certain appearance of "antimafia work", they arrest his henchmen sometimes and watch his relatives, yet don't arrest him even when they could do it: for example when the carabiniere Saverio Masi once reported of having seen Messina Denaro in a certain location, his superiors closed the operation and didn't make the arrest. When Masi went public with it, he and several others have been indicted for "slandering" the police and carabinieri bosses.
However powerful Matteo Messina Denaro is, he isn't part of that "high mafia" category, he isn't part of that social elite with the white collars who are labeled as "social benefactors" and "political leaders", and that's why he is still on the wanted list.
In my opinion, they use Messina Denaro to blame him for every mafia activity on Sicily and make everybody continue the endless chase after him, so the real today's bosses (not only the rural mafia and the commission, but especially the white collars) can do what they want while unnoticed.
The gerarchical superiority of the mafia politicians over the lower level organized crime is in my opinion clearly shown by the Cosenza 'ndrangheta meeting attended by the former minister Gianni De Michelis. According to one of the present members turned informant, De Michelis openly allowed himself to be disrespectful and threatening towards the bosses by saying that they (the politicians) use the 'ndrangheta bosses when they want, but could conduct their business without them if they really wanted to, and that if the bosses turn informants against the politicians, it will return to them like a boomerang because they will get off the hook and real jail time anyway and will take revenge with heavier prison sentences.
Talking like that to Riina would have been a certain death for him, yet the today's bosses can't even bite back to an arrogant politician. On the other hand, I heard that the Cosenza is the weakest province from the 'ndrangheta point of view, Francesco Muto from Cetraro is the only one to be taken seriously there, as I read, maybe that's why De Michelis allowed himself such a tone.

I may be wrong, but that's how I see it.

I think it's an enforced order of state custody rather than a voluntary issue, I do get what you're saying though, my girlfriend's family are Calabrese ('though she was born and raised over here) and she completely rubbished the possibility of it working on any level.

I think that to have any viability would require a level of secure and sustained investment that the state infrastructure in Calabria has so far proven incapable of delivering (the amount of EU cash that is poured into that region only for it to disappear without trace is appalling) that is to say nothing of the wider Italian economic situation.

However I think that an acknowledgement of the need for any strategy that will achieve even a modicum of lasting success must impact at a cultural level i.e. that something has to be done to encourage - if not look to outright force - a shift in attitude and mentality is a step in the right direction.

Binnie, how do we defeat something so big? I don't think the answer is *elimination* of crime, because law enforcement never has that as the objective. The objective is usually to control it. How do we control organized crime, as a world community?

The world community has limited resources at its desposal and if there is an answer, it lies among those resources or a combination of those resources.

Those resources include:

Joint bombings of "rogue states"
Sanctions
Legalization of a banned substance (ending "Prohibition")
Police work

The police work has already been tried.

I am of the opinion that what needs to be done is drug legalization for the simple fact that drug corruption is SO wide and SO expansive and universal that the government needs to get in on the action and tax it in order to drive the traffickers and dealers out of business.

Sanctions on Narco States like Turkey (Heroin) and Mexico (Cocaine) would be great because it is through legitimate trade that drugs piggyback and are smuggled into a country. Cut off that trade completely and whatever is left over that comes over the border, just shoot it and you stopped the drug shipment. Narco States need to be starved into submission and/or their poppy fields and coca fields nationalized and annexed by their governments and made to serve the world community above board in a legal way. Imagine a world in which Narco States like Colombia used their coca fields to grow cocaine only for medicinal commerce. Opiates are anesthetics and have always been used as such, way before the modern drug trade.

The alternative is the remaining tool the world community has which is to attack Narco States, kill their leadership (who are drug corrupted), and bomb their coca and opium fields.

Once you cut off the money you kill the magnet that draws all of the wrong people into secret societies like La Maffia, which I believe was a clandestine peasant guerrilla warfare/revolutionary movement before it became known as Cosa Nostra.

I am probably a hopeless moralist, but legalizing something like HEROIN is like legalizing murder for hire to settle business disputes in my opinion. If the addicts are stupid or naive and poison themselves, it doesn't mean it's ok, considering what their relatives feel and especially considering what they themselves realize in the final stage of addiction, when they can't get off anymore without going crazy.
And anyway, even if ALL kinds of drugs were allowed, they would continue to kill each other and other people over something else. I once read about a mafia war in a Russian city over the flowers market, as harmless as flowers may be.

Then let them kill each other over flowers.

Dwalin, I used to be like you. You have to get into Mike Levine former DEA agent, the literature of suicided journalist Gary Webb, and a host of others to get to the point I have reached which is an understanding that drugs are unstoppable, like prostitution. When even diplomats and embassies are used to smuggle, and the banks we use everyday are used for laundering, you start to realize, the joke is on you.

Where are my taxes. These people are making a killing and they haven't paid their fair share. I want them to pay in. I simply do not want to be the only one paying taxes. It's as simple as that.