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Re: The death of Italian culture.... [Re: TheKillingJoke] #727197
07/16/13 08:54 PM
07/16/13 08:54 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
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Eastern Europe
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Originally Posted By: TheKillingJoke


I've even heard some Italians argue once that 'Italian' should be a panethnicity instead of an ethnicity. It's said that there are large cultural and genetic difference not only between northerners and southerners but even between Neapolitans, Calabrians, Sicilians and Apulians.
But I'm not an expert on that.


IMO Italians aren't an ethnicity but a nation formed in 19th century on linguistic and geographic basis. The people who would through time start to identify themselves with Italian national identity were ethnically and culturally diverse, part of different cultural spheres and different historic states on the peninsula. Particularly in the south (what was "The Kingdom of Two Sicilies" before the unification) the Italian-speaking people had a strong regional identity of their own and many of them opposed the new Italian nation-state (economic and religious/ideological reasons also played a role).

Italian national identity then consilidated through 20th century. That's another aspect we have to consider when comparing Italians from Italy and Italian-Americans. Majority of Italian-Americans immigrated to USA from 1890s to 1920s and were not part of major historic events that in Italy considerably shaped Italian national identity - WWI and the "patriotic experience" of fighting for Italian homeland, the rise of Fascism and Fascist rule (very important part of Italian history, for a number of reasons), WWII, the loss of Istria and Dalmatia, the end of monarchy, the cold war in Europe, post WWII decades and political struggle between Christian Democracy and Communist Party (PCI), economic miracle in 50s and 60s, socio-political turmoil in "the Years of Lead", the fact that Italy has now for decades been (de facto) a social-democratic state (like the rest of Europe) and in this regard different from the USA etc... These things shaped Italian identity, mentality and political culture (and culture in general) but had no effect on the Italians in the USA. I doubt Italian-American population in general knows much about these events. The big majority of them probably didn't care what went on in Italy because it didn't concern them. Instead, they were strongly influenced by the American environment and by what was going on in the USA, which on the other hand didn't concern Italians in Italy. It's the same in any other community of economic immigrants.

Last edited by Slava; 07/16/13 08:56 PM.
Re: The death of Italian culture.... [Re: Slava] #727264
07/17/13 04:00 AM
07/17/13 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted By: Slava
Originally Posted By: TheKillingJoke


I've even heard some Italians argue once that 'Italian' should be a panethnicity instead of an ethnicity. It's said that there are large cultural and genetic difference not only between northerners and southerners but even between Neapolitans, Calabrians, Sicilians and Apulians.
But I'm not an expert on that.


IMO Italians aren't an ethnicity but a nation formed in 19th century on linguistic and geographic basis. The people who would through time start to identify themselves with Italian national identity were ethnically and culturally diverse, part of different cultural spheres and different historic states on the peninsula. Particularly in the south (what was "The Kingdom of Two Sicilies" before the unification) the Italian-speaking people had a strong regional identity of their own and many of them opposed the new Italian nation-state (economic and religious/ideological reasons also played a role).

Italian national identity then consilidated through 20th century. That's another aspect we have to consider when comparing Italians from Italy and Italian-Americans. Majority of Italian-Americans immigrated to USA from 1890s to 1920s and were not part of major historic events that in Italy considerably shaped Italian national identity - WWI and the "patriotic experience" of fighting for Italian homeland, the rise of Fascism and Fascist rule (very important part of Italian history, for a number of reasons), WWII, the loss of Istria and Dalmatia, the end of monarchy, the cold war in Europe, post WWII decades and political struggle between Christian Democracy and Communist Party (PCI), economic miracle in 50s and 60s, socio-political turmoil in "the Years of Lead", the fact that Italy has now for decades been (de facto) a social-democratic state (like the rest of Europe) and in this regard different from the USA etc... These things shaped Italian identity, mentality and political culture (and culture in general) but had no effect on the Italians in the USA. I doubt Italian-American population in general knows much about these events. The big majority of them probably didn't care what went on in Italy because it didn't concern them. Instead, they were strongly influenced by the American environment and by what was going on in the USA, which on the other hand didn't concern Italians in Italy. It's the same in any other community of economic immigrants.


Great post! Thanks. You obviously know your stuff.
In this thread I also heard a mention of Mexicans becoming more 'americanized' in the future. The thing is, there are a lot of illegal immigrants who will likely identify as 'Mexicans'. Some of them do get caught up in gangs. Illegal immigrants make up the bulk of gangs like Florencia 13, Gran Familia Mexicana,...
But a large portion of the Hispanic community also consists of Americans of Mexican descent who have lived in the USA longer than most Italians or even Irish were there. If you like to stay in the OC hemisphere you can take a look at the Mexican Mafia or the Nuestra Familia for instance. Most of the members (and especially the original founders) have Anglo surnames and in some cases even Anglo last names. Joe Morgan was 100% Anglo-Slavic, but Benjamin Peters, Randy Therrien, Mike Ison,...as well as some others clearly were Hispanic. It's also said that the Mexican Mafia as well as the Nuestra Familia identifies with 'American' somewhat homegrown to the modern US territory than with more recent Mexican immigrants and their first or even second generation descendants. That's why even the Hispanic population in the US themselves make a distinction between 'Mexicans' and 'Chicanos'.

Re: The death of Italian culture.... [Re: TheKillingJoke] #727408
07/17/13 05:38 PM
07/17/13 05:38 PM
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Apologize for butting in but i recall 18st gang having the most illegal immigrants in their group.


If you think you are too small to make a difference, you haven't spend the night with a mosquito.
- African Proverb
Re: The death of Italian culture.... [Re: BlackFamily] #727419
07/17/13 06:08 PM
07/17/13 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted By: BlackFamily
Apologize for butting in but i recall 18st gang having the most illegal immigrants in their group.


Yeah, that's true. Not solely Mexicans, also a lot of Salvadorans and Guatemalans.

Re: The death of Italian culture.... [Re: NickyEyes1] #774946
04/30/14 02:07 PM
04/30/14 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted By: NickyEyes1
Italians and Spaniards are both white. As is any other county in Europe. Mexicans of course aren't white.


Actually yes there are Caucasian or "white" Mexicans. They are of Spanish descent or are descendant from other European countries as many people from various countries did emigrate to Mexico, and Mexico was controlled by the French at one point a long time ago.

Italian/Italian-American culture is still around and IME it's just as strong as Mexican-American culture, various cultures from different countries who are living in the United States, African American/Black American culture, and Puerto Rican culture.

Last edited by cornuto_e_contento; 04/30/14 02:55 PM.
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