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Re: Prager University: "Separation of Church & State" [Re: afsaneh77] #716676
05/21/13 01:37 AM
05/21/13 01:37 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
I
IvyLeague Offline OP
IvyLeague  Offline OP
I

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
Originally Posted By: afsaneh77
A majority, be it congress or the people, cannot vote against inherent rights of a minority. It's not beyond role of a judge to struck down such an absurd measure, it's its very role to do so.


Again, you go by the assumption that a certain minority has these rights to begin with. Nowadays, if people want something, they just claim it as their "right," whether it really is or not.

The only true rights come from God because any rights given by the government or man can be taken away by government or man.

Last edited by IvyLeague; 05/21/13 01:37 AM.

Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
Re: Prager University: "Separation of Church & State" [Re: IvyLeague] #716681
05/21/13 01:51 AM
05/21/13 01:51 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,602
Yunkai
afsaneh77 Offline
Mother of Dragons
afsaneh77  Offline
Mother of Dragons

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,602
Yunkai
Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Again, you go by the assumption that a certain minority has these rights to begin with. Nowadays, if people want something, they just claim it as their "right," whether it really is or not.

It's called inherent rights. The name is self explanatory if you are not blinded by prejudice, hatred and religious dogmas.

Originally Posted By: IvyLeague

The only true rights come from God because any rights given by the government or man can be taken away by government or man.


First of all whose Gods? What if someone hid behind another imaginary God such as yours and claimed he/she gave him/her such a right? What do you have to say then with the freedom of practicing every religion?

Second of all, any government can take away any and all rights, regardless of your labeling them as true rights given by God. What's your point? I don't see a point here.


"Fire cannot kill a dragon." -Daenerys Targaryen, Game of Thrones
Re: Prager University: "Separation of Church & State" [Re: IvyLeague] #716696
05/21/13 06:06 AM
05/21/13 06:06 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718
Berlin, Germany
Danito Offline
Underboss
Danito  Offline
Underboss
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718
Berlin, Germany
Original geschrieben von: IvyLeague

Notice I never said the government was founded on the Christian religion. What I've said is:

A) The U.S. has always been a Christian nation in the sense that most of it's citizens have always been Christian.

B) Most the founders were religious, specifically Christian, and not just deists, agnostics, or secular non-believers as liberal revisionist historians have claimed.

C) The "separation of church and state" is nowhere to be found in the Constitution, as many believe. And the First Amendment simply means there is no state religion (like the Church of England) and not that religion is to be completed marginalized in society, as many secular liberals would like.


But the video you've posted claims more than that. If you're just saying that
- the majority of US Americans are Christians,
- some of the founders were religious,
- the words "separation of church and state" are not in the Constitution,
then wow! What a sensation! If that's all you have to say, what's the point of this thread? I think, we all know these things.
Or are you talking about interpretation?

Re: Prager University: "Separation of Church & State" [Re: IvyLeague] #716741
05/21/13 11:46 AM
05/21/13 11:46 AM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,797
Pennsylvania
klydon1 Offline
klydon1  Offline

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,797
Pennsylvania
That the actual phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear in the Constitution is of no consequence (the phrase "fair trial" doesn't appear either). The principles of separation of church and state are undeniably and firmly imbedded in the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

Of course, this does not preclude people of faith from serving in government. Nor does it require them from abandoning beliefs or convictions that are formed by faith. That would be a violation of the Free Exercise Clause. It prevents, however, any govrnment action that promotes or favors one faith over another, or belief in God over non-belief.

For a government action violates the Establishment Clause one of the following must be present:

1. The Act must serve a secular, non-religious purpose;
2. The Act must not promote or inhibit religious practice;
3. The Act must not create an excessive entanglement with religion.

This test is from the USSC decision in Lemon v. _____ (the name escapes me).

Re: Prager University: "Separation of Church & State" [Re: klydon1] #716753
05/21/13 12:17 PM
05/21/13 12:17 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,020
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,020
Texas
Originally Posted By: klydon1

For a government action violates the Establishment Clause one of the following must be present:

1. The Act must serve a secular, non-religious purpose;
2. The Act must not promote or inhibit religious practice;
3. The Act must not create an excessive entanglement with religion.

This test is from the USSC decision in Lemon v. _____ (the name escapes me).


Kurtzman, Kly. It's one of the primary Court decisions I have my students study.

The thrust of your post is correct. The establishment and free exercise clauses of the 1st amendment were a reaction to historical British efforts to establish the Anglican Church in the Colonies and, later, to preclude such sordid religious conflicts such as that exemplified by the history of Maryland.

Last edited by olivant; 05/21/13 12:17 PM.

"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
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Re: Prager University: "Separation of Church & State" [Re: IvyLeague] #716759
05/21/13 12:30 PM
05/21/13 12:30 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,797
Pennsylvania
klydon1 Offline
klydon1  Offline

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,797
Pennsylvania
oli, what do you think of Gordon S. Wood. He won a Pulitzer Prize in the 90s for a book on the Founding Fathers that, I'm ashamed to say, I never got around to reading.

Re: Prager University: "Separation of Church & State" [Re: klydon1] #716765
05/21/13 12:42 PM
05/21/13 12:42 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,020
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,020
Texas
Originally Posted By: klydon1
oli, what do you think of Gordon S. Wood. He won a Pulitzer Prize in the 90s for a book on the Founding Fathers that, I'm ashamed to say, I never got around to reading.


He's a prolific author for sure. During the past year I read his Empire of Liberty which I really enjoyed. I plan to read other of his works.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
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