I'm not sure which Chicago posters you're talking about, or what specifically they've said that matches up with you, but it doesn't matter one way or the other. ChiTown (formerly Fratto on the Real Deal form) is a known fraud. And now you are here using the same talking points, and hyping the Outfit, just like other Chicago posters have in the past. And like them, when you're confronted with conflicting evidence, you simply get defensive and belligerent. That you get so uppity about the Colombos being bigger, and likely lasting longer than the Outfit, shows you have an inherent bias here. Again, just like the other Chicago posters.

And just in case I need to say it again....

YOU AND THE REST OF THE CHICAGO POSTERS NEED THE FBI AND OTHER PUBLIC INFO JUST AS MUCH AS EVERYBODY ELSE. YOU SIMPLY LIVING IN CHICAGO AFFORDS YOU NO SIGNIFICANT INSIGHT ON THE LOCAL UNDERWORLD, AS MUCH AS YOU WOULD LIKE TO BELIEVE IT DOES. YOU LIVING IN CHICAGO DOES NOT = YOU LIVING THE LIFE.

I don't need anything. I had my uncle who was a soldier in the Outfit for 40 years explain it to me. YOU CAN TAKE THE FEDS REPORT LITERALLY AND I'LL TAKE THE WORD OF SOMEBODY WHO WAS ACTIVE IN IT FOR 40 YEARS. MY SOURCE IS BETTER THAN YOUR SOURCE. CASE CLOSED.

Your source is your imagination. Nothing more.

Blow it out of your rat infested ass.

You're being warned to stop this flaming behavior. Just stop it!

Like another poster said simply "give the guy a chance" just don't automatically attack him as a fraud.

Ivy your a flamer..flaming this guy n that guy bada bing bada boom

Dick Nose, Thanks but I don't need a chance from him or anyone else. Maybe he needs a chance from me. About 3 or 4 other commenters hear exactly what I was saying. Ivy league is the only one who wants to argue because it disrupts his image that the Outfit has to be much smaller than the rat infested Colombo Family. The dispute is over terminology. I say the Chicago outfit has a small number of made men because the soldiers are not made guys in the Outfit. He says the soldiers and associates are the same thing. I say in Chicago they are not the same thing. Therefore, if you add up the numbers, the Outfit is larger than expected. He doesn't want the Outfit to be larger in number. It bothers him. Because the Feds didn't spell it out for him in the Family Secrets Trial, he won't accept what I'm saying. All of his information comes from what he reads on the Internet. NONE OF IT COMES FROM REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE. I WOULD WELCOME OTHER PEOPLE'S OPINION. This is the crux of the whole argument that he has had with a couple other Chicago people besides me. My Uncle, Joey Lombardi, was a soldier for 40 years in the Outfit but was never a made guy. He explained to me the whole structure. He explained to me why he was never made. He explained to me the difference between soldiers who belong to the Crew and Associates who do business with the Crew. Ivy doesn't want to believe it. I don't fucking care. That's pretty much it. I looked at his profile and he is a New York wannabe who is fascinated by the Mafia and wants to be part of it. He has pictures of all these guys in his profile. To be honest with you, I think the guy is a little sick in his head.

Maybe he really has a source, why not give it some consideration?

Now that sounds like a good deal.

Agreed, these Outfit threads are beggining to give me a headache.

Ivy league, Since the holy bible of the Outfit is not in the street but instead in F.B.I. Reports, In 1997, You're Gods, The Feds, said that there were 70 made guys in the Outfit and 700 to 1200 Associates!! What happened to the 1,000 Associates from 1997 to 2007??? They all vanished except for 100??? You can believe the 2007 report and take it literally, and I will believe THE FEDS REPORT FROM 1997 which even if it was reduced 50%, 10 years later would be 350 to 600 Associates. I can play the same game as you.

First, I don't say "members" and "soldiers" in Chicago are the same thing. All the available evidence says it. When or where have any of us ever seen they are different besides you claiming it? If this were so, somebody would have likely seen it somewhere before. The Family Secrets indictment showed the Outfit has the same structure and terminology as other LCN families.

Second, even if you're related to Lombardi, how does that translate to you having this so called inside knowledge? What, did you ask him how many members, soldiers, and associates there still are? Did you do a poll? You're "40 made members, 120 soldiers, and several hundred associates" is obviously made up.

This is the problem with so many local guys. Even if they are related to or know some people, and have some good info to offer, many of them inevitably kill their own credibility by going beyond what they really know. They can't help it. Their ego gets the best of them.



See my response to this in 3 other threads you posted this.

I say let the Mob Wives fight it out lol Doesn't Chicago have thier own train wrecked Mob Wives?

How come your uncle never become a made guy?Was he offered and rejected it or does chicago very rarely like opening the books

Mob Wives Chicago was cancelled after one season

Tiger84, He wasn't the kind of person to kill someone because a superior ordered it.

Ivy, As a matter of fact, I did ask him how many made guys are currently in The Outfit in 2013. He said about 40, but not all are active and I think he was counting some in jail. I think the big difference between you and me is that we are using different terminology. The terminology in Chicago is different. For example, Chicago never refers to themselves as "The Family" or "Cosa Nostra". they refer to themselves as "The Outfit". The Feds gave the 2007 trial the name " Family Secrets". If you would like, I can refer to the Soldiers as "Associates" and I can refer to all the other people who do business with the Outfit as "Connected Guys". For example, How would you or the F.B.I. in any of their Reports, refer to Bar owners who are 50% partners with the Outfit on Poker machines? Are they also called "Associates", but of a different nature? How would you refer to collectors who belong to a crew but are not made guys in Chicago? Are they called soldiers or are they called Associates? If we can agree on the same terminology, then we can possibly have more productive discussions on occasion. During the Auippa reign years ago, I was told there were about 60 active made guys on the street at any given time with 240 men working for them and several hundred doing business with them. By doing business with them, I am referring to all the bar owners, street bookies (who are 25% partners) etc.
In 2013, you're probably correct, or the Feds are probably correct in saying that it is 50% less and there are maybe 30 active made men and say 120 associates working for them. That's probably accurate. Then, there are all the other people like the bar owners and street bookies and lots of other people who do business with the Outfit. I don't know what you want to call those people. Maybe we can call them Outfit connected guys or street associates who are different than the other associates who work directly for the Outfit. I was also told that the Street activity is down at least 50% from years before, but the White Collar activity is higher and that's where they are concentrating more of an effort on as opposed to the blue collar activity. The White collar activity involves Unions, Construction, legit businesses getting city contracts through bidding, offshore bookmaking ( which is legit and the customers use credit cards ). I can't offer any proof that would satisfy you accept for the fact that I do have a relative, Lombardi, who was involved in the blue collar part of it with the Elmwood Park Crew from 1957 to 1993. In 1993, he was indicted with Sarno & about 5 others for Loan Sharking. He went to jail in 1998 for 2 years. After he got out, he was no longer active and has nothing to do with those guys anymore. However, he is respected because he never ratted on anyone and did his time like a man. This is what I can offer but I have no way to prove it to you. If you do not accept anything I say, that's okay with me and there are no hard feelings. As you can see, after being admonished, I've decided to be a gentleman and try to understand WHY we clashed. I believe it was over terminology. Sincerely, Elmwoodparker

After reading your post, it seems like we're going back over old ground as you're making the same "terminology" argument you did before.

Yes, the Chicago mob is called "The Outfit," just like other families have been called "The Office," "The Arm," "The Partnership," etc. But they're all LCN families.

If the Outfit really had a difference in terminology, the FBI would acknowledge that in their reports and indictments. But, from what I've seen, a made guy in Chicago is the same as anywhere else. There isn't a difference in "member" and "soldier." A guy is made or he isn't. Everyone else is going to be an associate of some type.

And no offense but I'll take published FBI figures over anecdotal rumor posted on an internet forum. When the feds say 28-30 members and a little over 100 associates, that's good enough for me.

Ivy let it go your opinions won't change

terminology aka slang ain't the same in Chicago as it is in NY

two different cities.....NY has 5 families and Chicago has 1

made guys in Chicago don't have the same function as NY madeguys. 100 madeguys in NY all try to eat off the same plate, where in Chicago most madeguys have their own crew of guys that operate in their designated section (north,south,west)

for example; nick calabrese had a crew and he wasn't made

Ivy, I agree that there are 30 active made guys. Where I disagree is in the number and definition of an associate. If you were to count all the guys who work full time directly for the made guys, plus you added in all the people WHO DO BUSINESS WITH THE OUTFIT ( which would be all the Bar Owners, street bookies, union guys etc.) the number OF ASSOCIATES would be way more than 120. There are at least 100 bar owners who have poker machines alone! That's why the 1997 Crime Commission Report stated 700 to 1,200 Associates. They were counting EVERBODY. The 2007 Report of more than 100 Associates was only counting the full time guys who work directly for the made guys because the made guys run their own crews. Do you see what I'm saying? I KNOW YOU ARE SMART ENOUGH TO SEE THE DIFFERENCE.
In addition, as a side note, The Feds questioned my Uncle as far back as 1997 about the Outfit structure and other things that we talk about here on these blogs. If they know everything, why would they want to question him and when he refused to talk, send him to Jail for two years?? No Offense, but all I'm saying is that my Uncle knows more than the Feds.

Alright damn it. Im bored as fuck so ill address this from a different perspective.

I will speak for Ny (even tho my location says nj, 90% of nj guys belong to a ny family). In regards to the argument over the term "crew"... I have heard two different usages for the term crew involving NY guys... One is a captain's "crew". This includes Soldiers (Madeguys) and Associates. Another is what is referred to as the group of guys who are under the Soldier/Made Guy. This also gets into the debate over associates. The FBI will call someone an associate if they eat dinner with a made guy... If they sell the made guy coke... If they arre a relative to a made guy... If they are one of two hundred agents that operate under a connected sportsbook. The feds are lying hypocrits who do this to inflate their numbers and justify their paychecks. If they catch one connected guy who sells weed and ten of his customers, they say "11 Gambino Associates arrested for running million dollar drug trafficking ring"... On the street, in NY, a REAL associate is considered someone who is "on the record" or "under" a made guy. A soldier has no limit on the number of guys he can claim. He can claim his father, his brother, his cousins, his in laws, his best friends, his neighbor, his business partner, his bartender, his drug dealer, someone who owes him money, whatever.. It can be 2 guys or 20 under a made guys flag. I dont know how they are counted in chicago. The soldier tells the captain so and sos with me, and hes officially an associate. The feds multiply the number of soldiers they have by 10 and say whatever like 1000 or something.... Basically captains have crews of soldiers, soldiers have crews of associates, and associates can have crews of there own guys if they have enough leadership. I consider someone to be connected when theyre actually with a crew. But some people will call a guy connected if he buys coke from a connected guy so it varies.

When it comes to gambling, some books have THOUSANDS of agents. A famous example, Pennacle.Connected as fuck. Bonannos and Westside both have hooks into that group. Penny (and affiliated groups) have thousands of agents up and down the east coast... Some packages are completely run by connected guys. Big package holder in the bronx...Made guy, under him connected guys/associates. But does that make EVERY AGENT an associate of organized crime? I can say this about 3 other books not quite the size of Penny but still up there. Big ass books-run 100% by a NY crime family... But would that make like 10,000 associates? Theres a double standard to this shit and the government never plays fair. And another thing i must say is, Ivy doesnt have opinions. He has his mind set. 100% that whatever he reads online is right and there is no evidence that will change his opinion. Ive talked with him for months. He cant help it. He asks me for what i say on a few things and if i reply with something that doesnt match the majority evidence he presents whatever documents he has and says "this says so and so as official captain, there fore based on... " you know how he is.. Hes not really saying im a liar or anything, and its a little off putting at first but its just how he is. I dont hold it against him, but he sticks to his guns and wont stray from the facts that are presented before him. Im not here for a popularity contest, if you dont believe what i have to say you can fuck yourself with bowie knife, i dont care, i know what i know. Life is too short to argue about the size of the mafia. Take care my friends.

Did you happen to notice that elmwoodparker was the one who brought this all up again?



Only with a handful of minor things, like a captain in Chicago often being referred to as a "crew boss."



Thanks for clarifying that.



Nonsense. You don't think there are plenty of NY soldiers who have their own crew of associates? Made guys in Chicago have the same function as those in New York. It's no different.



Maybe we're making some headway now. But, for the record, the FBI didn't say "active." Of the two quotes by different FBI officials, one said there were "28 members roaming the Chicagoland area." The other simply said there were "30 members," which seems to suggest a total figure.



I've said many times before that I don't take associate estimates that seriously because, depending on how one defines it, the number can expand or retract. A looser definition is obviously going to result in a bigger number. A more strict definition is obviously going to result in a smaller number.

That said, for comparison purposes, i.e. apples to apples or Chicago and New York, we have to go with the same criteria - the latest official estimates. If one wants to use the more expansive number of associates for Chicago, fine, but then they also have to do the same for New York.

Finally, one can get a better impression of the the likely Outfit associate number when they look at the number of made members, the activity in recent years, and compare it to other families. When one takes these things into account for Chicago, a little over 100 associates seems more likely than 700-1,200.



For what it's worth, a poster over on the RD (who was retired law enforcement) said the associate estimate for a family is typically left up to the local FBI SAC. And, from what I've read, the FBI has a stricter criteria on who they consider an associate than, say, the NYPD.



Though I think the relative size of LCN families is a crucial factor, I actually agree with much of what you said above. We need to take care not to throw out the label "associate" too freely. Because many, if not most, if those agents probably wouldn't fit the criteria.

Incidentally, in addition to Pinnacle, do you know of any others that are mob-connected, Skinny? Below are some of the ones I've seen involved in mob gambling busts over the past decade.

http://www.betonsports.com
http://www.playwithal.com
http://www.betonline.com
http://ww1.bigactionsports.com
http://www.beteagle.com
http://www.perfectwager.com
http://www.betmsg.com
http://www.betallsports.com
http://www.betwsi.com
http://www.betoffshore.net
http://www.betonsports.com
http://www.44wager.com

I've seen this mentioned before.

Obviously, it's no secret that mob families have been using offshore gambling sites where a player is given a user name and password, and can place a bet. And the bookie can also log into the same site to see who is players bet on and how much. And, of course, all the money is exchanged locally. No credit cards.

And obviously there are many legal online betting sites, where one can use a credit card, though many of them have been chased away from the U.S. market.

But where do we get the idea that the Outfit is involved in this quasi-legal form of bookmaking? I know somebody mentioned that on Fosco's blog a few years ago but that's it. And, interestingly enough, there hasn't been a gambling bust involving anyone from DiFronzo's North Side crew since the Dotes and Scalise were busted back 2000.

The number of associates COMPARED to made guys in Chicago is not the same as the number of associates COMPARED to New York. This is where you are very wrong and misinformed. Chicago has a very high number of associates compared to made men. New York's ratio is smaller and always has been smaller. Why? New York has always been very liberal in making people. Chicago has always been much more select. The F.B.I. has stated this fact in some of their reports. You should know this being an F.B.I. report expert. Many of the associates who work for made guys in Chicago would have been made guys in New York and allowed to do what they want as long as they kicked up to their Captain. Chicago has always been different in this regard. My Uncle would have EASILY been a made guy in one of the New York Families. Chicago has always been much more selective.
As far as busts in Chicago, the OFFSHORE Gambling ( supervised by Marco D'Amico) would not involve busts because it is basically legit. You make the wrong assumption that no busts for Gambling means no activity. You are very wrong on this point. The Outfit is like the Corleone family becoming basically legit. This is the only example I can use that you might understand. The Chicago Outfit is very shrewd, smaller, leaner and more legitimate which means in the long run, they will survive a very long time. Don't ask me to prove what I said with an F.B.I Report. You can believe what you want, and I'll believe what I know. It's not a problem. You and I will never really agree on too much because I'm going mainly by inside information that I can't prove to you and you're going by an F.B.I. REPORT WHICH IS NOT ALWAYS ACCURATE OR UP TO DATE. THAT'S WHY THE FEDS ARE ALWAYS TRING TO GET MORE INFORMATION from guys like my Uncle who will not tell them anything. They punished him by sending him to prison. I'm talking from a street inside level which can't be proven on a Blog. You're talking from a F.B.I. Report which is 5 years old and incomplete. We will never agree on some of these points. Not a problem

@ivyleague


Chicago doesn't necessarily use the word captain all the time

sometimes they have area bosses


maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=70996&relPageId=4http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=70996&relPageId=4


madeguys in new York are 1000 deep and sharing dinner plates

madeguys in Chicago operate on their lonesome if they're capable

madeguys in Chicago probably all have legitimate business

Smaller Leaner Well Organized Secretive Politically Insulated White Collar Organized Crime Group like the Outfit led by Elmwood park will always outlast a Blue Collar Disorganized Rat Infested Organized Crime Group like the Colombos or the Gambinos anyday. I don't care how many 'Made members' they have presently. The number of made members DOES NOT MEAN STRENGTH. BIGGER DOESN'T MEAN BETTER. If that were the case, then the Crips Street Gang in Los Angeles would be more powerful than ALL THE MAFIA FAMILIES PUT TOGETHER, WHICH OBVIOUSLY IS NOT THE TRUTH. The only Group in New York similar to Chicago would be the Genovese Family. They are the EXCEPTION, not the norm in New York. That's why Chicago only dealt with them. The Goal for the Italian American Mafia to survive from 2013 forward is to become smaller, more selective, and a lot more White Collar than Blue Collar. That is the ONLY way to survive. The number of made members, in the long run, really doesn't mean shit and does not represent strength. Again, if that were the case, then everyone in this Country would be working for the Crips or the Bloods.

This may have been the case in the past but, if you look at more recent reports, the member-to-associate ratio is about the same in New York and Chicago. For example, the Colombo family is said to have about 100 members and 500 associates. The Genovese family is said to have about 200 members and 1,000 associates. By comparison, the Outfit is said to have 25-30 members and a little over 100 associates. That's about a 1:5 ratio for both. The New England and Philadelphia families have 40-50 members and about 100 associates, making a 1:2 ratio. So, comparatively speaking, Chicago is more similar in total size to New England or Philadelphia but the member-to-associate ratio is a little different.



I see. The Outfit (the real life Corleone family) has gone legit and has figured out a way to avoid law enforcement scrutiny. Is that why we saw Anthony Centracchio, Michael Spano, James Inendino, Jimmy Marcello, Joey Lombardo, Frank Calabrese, Rudy Fratto, and Mike Sarno all indicted since 2000? Not to mention many more associates. Many of them for the standard mob rackets.

Bottom line. All you've presented so far is anecdotal information. On the internet no less.



I'm aware of that. Which is why I said above they've been known to use the term "crew boss" instead of "captain." The difference is, we've seen evidence of that, while we've seen no evidence of made members and soldiers being different in Chicago.



This is why you Chicago posters have the fanboy reputation you do. The Outfit is like the Corleone family. All Outfit members have legit businesses while the NY guy are scraping by. You guys can't see past your own inherent bias.



It's true that the Outfit has downsized and streamlined it's operations, which is a smart move in the shorter term. However, in the longer term, attrition will see it's demise. Yes, quality is a big factor. But so is quantity. If a family doesn't have the necessary pool of recruits, or simply doesn't make new members, it will eventually fade away. We've seen the Outfit's membership be cut in half over the past 15 years. That shows a definite trend, even if some don't want to see it. The Outfit can have all the stability and discipline in the world. It will still go the way other LCN families have, who are no longer around, long before any of the NY families will.

The Family Secrets trial was all about Crimes committed years ago. C'mon Ivy, stop pretending to act stupid about facts when it might serve your purpose. Lombardo was convicted of a murder done in 1974! Marcello was convicted of murder done in 1986! Calabrese never got out of jail and went in in 1995! Centracchio, was indicted for poker machines in 2001. You're talking about the past and some of it ANCIENT PAST. You always say there is very little activity in Chicago on all your other postings. Now, you want to talk about a lot of activity but most of it was in the past. You're a funny guy. lol