It would have been Gambinos v. Genovese and Lucchese. In that situtation, Gambinos would have gone down in full out war. I'm not sure where the Bonanno and Colombo families stood at that point as both were and still are highly dysfunctional.

I see the Bonanno's going with the Gambino's and Colombos probably going with the Genovese at that time. Would of been a nasty fight any way you look at it.

Today both families are estimated to have between 200 and 250 made members. The estimated membership totals of the 1980s would more than likely be comparable to the 1970s. I just have difficulty believing that between 1957 and 1975 New York's biggest families lost almost half of its members. And considering that the numbers have pretty much stayed consistent for at least the last twenty years, makes me believe that the membership totals haven't changed significantly in the last half a century.

Ok, so all the attrition, declining in numbers, Assimilation of Italians in those neighborhoods is BS? You don't feel the numbers have decreased!

Stop making such silly assumptions...

What I'm saying is, while the attrition and assimilation would have probably been the most significant in the last twenty years, it seems that it hasn't had much effect on the membership totals of the New York families, which is why I believe their numbers may very well have always stayed more or less the same.

I'm thinking that when the books were re-opened in the mid 1970s, the families replenished their numbers. Therefore I think that the membership totals in the 1970s would probably be comparable to the 1950s.

Silly Assumption? Ok, if it has happened in the last 20 years how are the numbers still the same as the 50's thru early 80's?

Try asking the FBI. I'm only stating the facts. In the late 1980s the FBI estimated that the Genoveses had 275 made members while the Gambinos had 300. Considering that they didn't lose 100 guys in a decade, these numbers would likely be comparable to the late 1970s, after the books were re-opened and the families replenished their numbers. So the membership totals of these families in the 1980s would probably not differ much from their numbers in the 1950s. Since the late 1980s the New York families (especially the smaller ones) have only decreased slighly in numbers, but not significantly. For example, the Bonannos had 150 made members in the 1970s and only a decade ago they still had the same amount. The same goes for the Luccheses and Colombos.

No thank you, not on my list to ask the FBI. However when the FBI say there numbers are ESTIMATES how can you tell me your stating a FACT?

And I also was only stating headcounts for the Gambino's and Genovese Families. Just for clarity in regards to this discussion.

I'm stating the facts by saying that the FBI estimated this back then... So fact is that the FBI gave those estimates...

Ok? I fell like I just drank something cold real fast.

And nothing for nothing thats why thier called estimates and not facts.

Agreed..good point !!

Yeah, good point..when the the chin died, i remember reading a quote in the paper from bruce mouw, the fbi gambino squad leader, and he said gotti would bad mouth everybody, including other bosses, but the only one he feared was the chin..said they never heard once trash him on a bug ..that says a lot !!

I personally don't put a lot of stock in any estimates prior to the 1980's, which is when the feds started keeping better tabs.



Actually the most consistent estimates for both the Genovese and Gambino families are a little over 200 members each. That's what was cited in both Danny Leo's 2007 indictment and Danny Marino's 2008 indictment. I don't think either family is as high as 250-300 now.



They're called "estimates" because it's not likely that the feds are going to know about every single member. But it's also not likely, in this day and age, that a large number of members will be unknown. The feds are going to know about most of them and come up with a specific number. It's a very educated, close, estimate; especially when you consider that the NY families apparently have a specific max they can have (unless they try to cheat).

In my personal opinion, I highly doubt more than, say, 10% of a given family, at most, could be unknown to the feds. So, for the Genovese or Gambino families, maybe as many as 20 guys are unknown. But 50, 75, 100? No way.

Glad somebody caught that haha

Genovese or Gambino families membership was around the same 1985-86 maybe, so a war could have went ether way. If other families had of taken sides on which ever side Genovese or Gambino and had more men does not make the side the winner in any war.

As has been said, a "war" would never happen. At least in the sense of what people are apparently envisioning. For the last 80 years, pretty much all the conflict has been internal family strife. And even that, like the Colombo war in the early 1990's, seems to be a thing of the past. Now a guy here or there may be taken out of the picture.

But, hypothetically speaking, if the Genovese and Gambino families had gone to war, how many members they had doesn't factor in the way people think. It's not like the regular army where everybody in the family can be drafted. A relatively small portion of either family would actually be involved in the conflict. I think the only benefit that would come with size is being able to better weather the inevitable law enforcement crackdown .

Ok, good points! However, you didn't answer who you think would win?

The feds.

Ok let's think outside the box here: the Feds now are going after the bad guys and leaving OC alone. If the Genovese went to war with the Gambino family who do you think would win?

Gotti could talk a good game (if that) but there's no way he would've survived a Chin onslaught. That guy had too many people, too much money and then you got a healthy Benny Eggs, Dom Cirillo, Ernie M, Barney's rising star, Bobby Manna, Jimmy Ida, Tino, and so many others. Gravano was vicious but people like to hype the Gambino's under Gotti, fact is the Genovese's had more than they did

I agree! Good points Joe

Chin did not fuck around. I think he passed that mentality to the guys running it today. Gotti had the power he had due to the time period, people were scared shitless of the mob even in the early nineties and he was one of the guys who wasn't afraid to pull the trigger. But he wasn't discreet. Gotti held out for 5 years, the Chin wasn't convicted until 1997.

Today the Gambino's got power, but they were ruined by the Gotti's and they stick to strip clubs and construction. The West Side still has a good amount of leverage on the streets.

In that situation back in the 1980's I think the Genovese family had the upper hand. There were key guys in the Gambino family, Jimmy Failla and Danny Marino, who wanted Gotti gone. Probably others as well who also saw Gotti as a usurper. Chin's control of the Genovese family was much more secure. He had more solid backing from his own people (even if you take into account Capeci's article about Allie Shades) as well as support from the Luccheses. When you think about it, it was pure dumb luck that saved Gotti twice from being killed by the Genovese and/or Luccheses.

Ivy whats that article about Allie Shades?

In one of the Gang Land News articles Capeci wrote about Gotti and Malangone supposedly plotting against Chin. Basically the same thing Chin, Failla, and Marino wanted to do but in reverse. Chin would be killed and Allie Shades installed as the new boss of the Genovese family.

I've always wondered if that was really true. I have my doubts. And even if it was, I think Allie Shades would have been signing his own death warrant. I don't see Chin's loyalists tripping over themselves to anoint Allie Shades as their new leader the way so many Gambino captains fawned over Gotti after Castellano was killed.

I think if Allie Shades was really plotting against the Chin he wouldn't be alive right now

Story total BS Allie was like a brother to Chin. And Alloe isn't that type of guy who wants anymore headaches. He's fairly chill. Never even crossed his mind

IMHO, the Genovese family would have gotten the upper hand because they had stronger and smarter leadership. Chin and his crews were shrewd. Gotti was glamour and glitz, albeit ballsy.

LOL I cannot believe I got sucked into this discussion. The speculative "what if" threads are sometimes interesting, but answers are usually biased by fan boys.