Which mob is/was more powerful and more effective? Which is/was stronger? Meaning now and in the past when they were both at their peak. I always thought al Capone was overrated as a mob boss. And accardo was a very effectove boss but couldn't hold a candle to the New York bosses. But idk that's my opinion. Post away guys:)

Ricca/Accardo were great bosses and arguably as shrewd and affective as any of the NY bosses throughout history.

I'd say Gambino was probably the most affective leader in American OC history, built up one of the smaller families (Mangano) into the biggest in NY, kept a low profile and had tremendous influence over other bosses.

Lucchese was a great money maker also.

Talk about drudging up one of the oldest and most hotly-debated topics on these OC forums.

You're making two separate comparisons - the families as a whole and the bosses invidually.

In terms of competency as a boss, Accardo was the equal of any of the NY bosses, i.e. Gambino, Lucchese, etc. And a good argument could be made that the Outfit at it's peak in the 1950's, when he was the boss, rivaled some of the NY families in power. Of course, it's not fair to compare the Outfit to all the NY mob, i.e. all 5 families.

Nowadays, the Outfit is closer in size and scope to the other remaining small families outside NY than any of the 5 families.

Well New York City had 5 families. In Chicago if there were 5 families accardo wouldn't have been making as much money. But that's beside the fact. Accardo was a great boss. One of the greatest but there were better bosses than him definitely. Chicago outfit was as strong as new yorks weakest families but I don't know if I would say stronger than new yorks weakest families. The Gambino's and genovese were a lot more powerful than the outfit. And I never really knew this was a big debate. I always thought everyone just assumed NYC was the most powerful. Which they were in my opinion.

I totally agree about gambino.

I think most would agree that the NY families were always bigger and stronger than the Outfit. But there's always been a number of Chicago posters who get uppity about this. They're very defensive about the "rep" of their hometown crime family. And beyond that, it's taken a long time to wear down the myth that the Outfit is still as powerful as it once was. Just a few years ago we still had a lot of people on the forums thinking the Outfit still had Chicago in an "iron grip" and more or less controlled the entire city. People thought there were 70, 100, or more members and 700 or more associates. When the feds cited 28 members and a little over 100 associates in 2007, many refused to believe it, almost throwing a tantrum. People thought it still controlled things out west even though there's really nothing left to control. And so on. Even now, there are those who equate just about any and all corruption in Chicago with the Outfit in some way.

There was this old dude that made a lot of research over the years(sorry for not remembering his name,hes famous)had a great sayin on the Accardo mobsters episode,it went somethin like this "Dont forget there are five diferent families in NY,but the Outfit is monolythic"...so that means the outfit is/used to be under one boss,so its a lil bit dificult to compare the two organizations.....plus the old outfit had a multinational membership

That was Chicago reporter John "Bulldog" Drummond who said that.

The thing is, the New York metropolitan area is so vast that it can support 5 families. It's the entire tri-state area really.

And nowadays, I'd argue that the 5 families all being in the same area is a strength to them. They're able to pool manpower, at times, and work together in joint rackets. There's a lot of intersecting interests involving all five families that makes it hard for the feds to tackle. Chicago, like the other remaining smaller families, is sort of out on an island by itself.

I would've never guessed that. Chicago has been down for a while. It used to be one of the strongest families in America only behind the 5 families in New York. During both their heydays I would say all 5 families were probably stronger than Chicago. With the more weaker families(even though they were still far from weak, just in comparison to gambino, genovese) being closer to Chicago but still being stronger. And obviously today all the families in New York are a lot stronger than Chicago. Even more so than before.

I don't know much about NY but Chicago's power at its height was staggering--and I am the farthest thing from a fan. But it not only controlled Vegas and had great influence in Hollywood, it's grip on the city was appalling. We had alderman who were literally made guys and countless politicians, judges other elected officials and cops on the take. During the Giancana era there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that the Outfit basically got JFK elected by swinging Illinois. I didn't believe it but after reading several books its fairly hard to deny.

I realize a lot of the Vegas and Hollywood stuff was done in tandem w/ NY, I believe, as well as a lot of the union stuff. So it gets blurry.

They were very powerful. Outside of the New York families they were the most powerful definitely.

I agree with what you're saying about the Outfit-related corruption in Chicago back in the day. What often gets overlooked is that New Jersey wasn't much better in terms of mob-related corruption. It had comparable influence in the Democratic party. And in New York, Frank Costello was as influential as any "connection guy" ever was in Chicago.

The New York and Chicago families, as well as several others, had interests in Las Vegas up through much of the 1960's. That, of course, was when many sold out to Howard Hughes and others. I think Chicago and some of the other Mid-west families maintained a presence there longer with the Argent-owned casinos later on.

The unions, on a national level, was definitely a cooperative thing. I've always suspected inter-family cooperation on things like the unions, open territories like Vegas, etc. was a big reason why the Genovese family had the "messegaro" (sp) position with Chicago.

Yes, I've never doubted they cooperated a lot. That is interesting about New Jersey. I am mostly interested in Chicago because when I read about it I know the streets, neighborhoods, etc. Plus the history of the mafia in NY is so big, I would never get my head around it. Chicago is enough.

it's documented that chicago was able to control las vegas while new york had to share a much smaller atlantic city. that means chicago was powerful enough to tell new york that las vegas belongs to chicago and new york agreed. of course chicago wasn't as powerful as all 5 families put together but they had more clout than atleast 3 of the new york mobs

@cookcounty - good to see another Windy City guy in the house... welcome!

This is a really good post but Richard M Daley should get the credit for JFK in Illinois.

Well the fact that al capone could never retaliate against the guy who sliced his face with a razor because lucky luciano sided with the guy who cut capone tells me, its not much of a debate..even though chicago was very powefrul !!

That was was pre 1920s though. Were talking 40s through 60s

Las vegas is a valid point ..chicago was respected enough by the NY families to more or less stay away..I just know that later in years, the feds had fat tony salerno on tape telling someone that KC reports to chicago, and chicago reports to us..and angelo lonardo testified that NY was the power..but i think as far as owning politicans, cops and judges etc..that's probably where they were more equals !!

[quote=DiLorenzo]Well the fact that al capone could never retaliate against the guy who sliced his face with a razor because lucky luciano sided with the guy who cut capone tells me, its not much of a debate..even though chicago was very powefrul !! [/quote


What's the story there? Who was the guy and how did lucky stop caliber from soon anything to him. They don't seem to get along in boardwalk empire that's 4surem

Capone grabbed a ny wiseguy's sisters azz, and he slashed capone across the face..apparently luciano had this guy's back..i forget which book i read that in ..might have been ''under the clock'' by william balsamo but i'm not sure !!

Back in 1917 young burly Al Capone was working at the Harvard Inn on Coney Island for Frankie Yale.Frankie Yale was a mob boss in New York.
On one particular evening back in 1917, a New York hood by the name of Frank Galluccio entered the dance hall/ speakeasy with his sister Lena and his date by the name of Maria Tanzio.
Al Capone was a bouncer/waiter at the Inn.
Al noticed Galluccio's young sister and began smiling at her. Lena became annoyed and embarrassed at Capone's constant staring that she asked her brother Frank to kindly ask Capone to stop it. Frank was just about to ask Capone to stop when Capone leans over to Lena and tells her "Honey, you got a nice ass and I mean that as a compliment, believe me"

Frank hears this, and goes ballistic. He quickly tells Capone that he won't take this shit from anybody and demands that Capone apologize immediately to his sister or else.

Al tells Frank with his arms extended "Come on buddy, I'm only joking"
Galluccio responds "This is no fucking joke! " Capone at this moment stops smiling and comes charging at Galluccio who quickly takes out a pocket knife and slashes Capone three times.
He aimed for the neck, but got his face instead as Galluccio had sveral drinks that evening.
Capone required up to 30 stitches at Coney island hospital. After the incident, Galluccio had a sitdown with the New York bosses. Capone was called upon and warned by the underworld not to attempt retribution for that slashing as Capone was at fault for insulting Galluccio's sister. Capone agreed and apologized for insulting his sister. Galluccio did feel bad for scarring Al, but did what he felt was right in protecting his sister's honor.

Al later told reporters his scars were acquired from the great war or from some barber as a young child. He applied talcum powder everyday to soften the glow of those scars and always preferred to take photos on his right side. His scars were as follows;

One oblique scar of 4" across cheek 2" in front of left ear
One vertical scar of 2 and a half inches on left jaw
One oblique scar of 2 and a half inches 2 "under left ear on neck.

Some unscrupulous newspapers and magazines even made his scars seem bigger to make Capone look more ruthless. Newspapermen dubbed him Scarface, but none of them would dare say it to his face.


http://www.myalcaponemuseum.com/id108.htm

Thanks DD

There's no way to measure; people just say whoever they have an affinity for. Who wielded the most power? Who made the most money? Who was smarter? Who dominated a city the most? Who listened to who?

I doubt that at its peak anyone was making more money than Chicago, wielded more influence, dominated the workings of a city more, and I don't think Giancana or Accardo would have let anyone else tell them to pay so much as a parking ticket.

But I'm from Chicago!

By the time New York and Chicago came to that agreement, the NY families had already sold off most of their interests in Las Vegas anyway. And what remained they kept. Chicago wasn't "telling" New York anything.

You know what it is? None of the guys from ny have any illusions of grandeur about our "home town family" to bother arguing such a point. If you are remembered by what you left behind, chicago is right there with the Novajos.... They are confined to a small area and left to make money one or two ways. Rave all you want about Capone, Accardo, or Giancana, what did they leave behind? Sorry if i come off as rude.

Then again im not even from NY

Eh none of your guys are as famous as ours. For whatever reason. Like I said, there are a million ways to measure it. You would have to define the question and then ask a real historian.

True. Like i say, there are valid points to both sides of the arguement, but frankly my dear i dont give a damn

While Capone is certainly the most famous gangster in history, nobody else in Chicago was any more famous as any NY guy.