I know you guys heard about the beef between Luciano and Genovese,Genovese ratting to the FBI about Luciano been in Cuba and the reason always was because Vito wanted to be the top boss.There was also a fight between Charly and Vito in Cuba on a meeting were Luciano punched Vito and broke a rib.After that Luciano,Lansky,Gambino alliance set up Vito at the Apalachin meeting and after that they set him up with some low level drug dealer and he went to jail.My question is this...since Vito had a connection with the FBI do you think that the Valachi situation was also a set up orchastrated by Vito and the FBI,so Vito made his revenge against the mob?

We have to go with what is known, and that gets pretty murky:

What's known is that, after Luciano went to prison for double-digits in 1936, he appointed Genovese as acting Don. But Genovese was forced to flee to Italy a year later, one step ahead of a murder rap. Frank Costello became acting Don, and cemented his role as "the Prime Minister of the Underworld." Genovese wanted to resume his role as Don when he was deported from Italy to the US, but Costello was too powerful.

Apparently Luciano's presence in Cuba following his deportation from the US was ratted out. Genovese generally gets the rap, but there's no doubt that Luciano wanted to resume his place as Numero Uno in NYC. So, any of the Dons at that Havana meeting had a built-in incentive to rat out Luciano's presence.

Most historians agree that the Apalachin disaster was the work of alert cops who were suspicious of the large number of cars in Joe Barbara's parking lot. Some have said that the cops were sore at Barbara for not paying them off. Nobody has said Genovese set it up--he was one of the victims. He was definitely set up for the drug bust in 1959.

I'm not sure what you mean by Genovese's FBI connection. And, there's no reason to believe that the Valachi thing happened for any other reason than a case of mistaken identity.

They could make a "seconds from disaster" episode for the American Mafia.

Luciano is imprisoned --> Genovese succeeds him --> Genovese flees to Italy --> Costello takes his place --> Luciano is ratted out by Genovese and is forced out of Cuba --> Genovese forces Costello into retirement --> Genovese sets up the Apalachin meeting in relation to earlier events --> Barbara neglects paying off cops --> Apalachin is raided & American Mafia becomes public --> Luciano & Costello take revenge and set up Genovese for a drugs bust along with Valachi and they are sent to prison --> Genovese tries to take out Valachi in prison but fails --> Valachi becomes a government witness --> Valachi hearings.

The thing is that i know about the facts that Genovese was the victim at the Apalachin meeting,you can read about it in some books or watch about it on doc's,some mob historians say that it was a set up made by Luciano,lansky and others and yes the cops saw them and they werent on the pay roll,who knows maybe Barbara was on it too,but Luciano just wated for the right moment and that was the meeting.Genovese ratting to the fbi?maybe who knows?!maybe its only a rumor,bout Valachi....he seems like an "Oswald" guy to me,some1 that you can manipulate with,easy,a lil bit retarded...thats just my opinion

Do you think Genovese was framed about the drug deal or did he really do it? Or was he convicted for what he really did do, but on framed evidence? I understand he deserved to go to jail anyway, with all the corpses he left behind, but was the evidence in this particular case a complete frame-up, a frame-up on a crime that was really committed or was it a rightful conviction? What do you think?

I think it could've been either the thing i don't get is why did they not just kill him?

Good question. I don't think there is a definitive answer.
My take is that the only person that Luciano and Costello would have trusted 100% to handle that job (Anastasia) was already dead. There had already been a number of murders and attempted murders so why bring more heat on the entire organization by trying to kill Genovese.

But I think the biggest reason is that they knew that they could hurt Genovese more by putting him in prison for the rest of his life.

To answer Dwalin2011's question...Genovese was deep in the drug business so you can say that it was a rightful conviction,but as i sad the other mobsters were waiting the right moment,cuz as sad Anastasia was a big problem for Vito but since he was iced,no1 could do any harm to Vito,he was a powerful enforcer so the only way was to frame him and go to jail for the rest of his life.Yes it was a frame up,but since Vito's ass was dirty and greedy,so you can say that it was an easy frame up.

It's interesting that the biggest mafia bosses often go to jail on frame-up charges:
Vito Cascio Ferro was convicted for the only murder he didn't commit, that really angered him when he was convicted.
Vito Genovese: framed on that drug deal.
Lucky Luciano: also probably framed, at least he was involved with prostitution less directly than with drugs, murder, extortion etc.
Carmine Tramunti: not really a big boss, but still a member of the commission: framed on drug charges, at least I read he was.
The whole leadership of the Rochester family went away in the 70s on framed evidence (but for a murder they really committed)
Toto' Riina: this one wasn't really framed, but seeing that the prosecution tries to put him in every single murder committed in Italy (an informant even accused him of ordering the shooting of the Pope) I think he also had his share of frame-ups.
I also read somewhere that some years ago there was a representation (don't remember where) of Al Capone's trial on tax evasion and using the modern laws it ended up in an acquittal

It's funny to think how angry these scumbags were when put away on framed-up charges. Never being caught for what they did, and ending up in jail for what they didn't do - the only bigger humiliation I can think for a mafioso is what Mario Puzo did to Salvatore Maranzano - had him killed by a character that didn't even exist in real life.

That's true,very true actualy.In the old days,i mean before the RICO laws or FBI bugs,the law men had to do everything just to get the bad guys,but if they wanted to frame some1 they needed an info from the inside,in many cases the rivals are the ones that are giving the information because they want the top position,as the western ppl say "its a dog eat dog world",but thats the only reason why oc can never be destroyed.I mean the fbi is doin deals with other mobster rivals just to get the older guy...i mean it doesnt make sence...In Luciano's case and Vito's case...Luciano framed Vito for drugs and the funny thing is that Charly was THE drug lord world wide,he pumped heroin in the USA like crazy,billions and billions...for me theres no loyalty in the mafia world,you just need to keep your head down and no showing off,but in the old times they belived in leaders and roman empire and bullshit like that,they always wanted the top spot!You want the top spot?!?!?!?Than you get framed one day!

I forgot about the frame-up of Tameleo and others in Providence on the Deegan murder charges with Barboza's help, just remembered that after you said how the law enforcement makes deal with gangsters to put away other gangsters. By the way, the newspapers represented them like martyrs, but weren't they still mafia associates who deserved to go to jail for other crimes? Don't know about Salvati, I think he just owned money to Barboza and the scumbag took revenge by framing him, but Tameleo! He was PATRIARCA'S UNDERBOSS! He surely had committed or ordered his share of murders. And Limone: he may have been innocent of that particular murder, but after being released he becomes the boss of the whole local mafia organization. Some "martyr" he is.
I am not justifying what the corrupt FBI scumbags did, but still it doesn't seem to make any sense when the newspapers say it was the worst case of miscarriage of justice in the history of the USA or something.

Good point there Dwalin2011...i really dont understand the action of the fbi department,maybe some of the mobsters pay them off,some of em dont,maybe somebody forgot to pay em off,maybe its a deal to get the bigger fish.....anyway the FBI are full of shit thats for sure,some of em kill for the mob(louis eppolito's example)

This is a part from a big article that i saved in my files long time ago and i dont know where it came from and its about the genovese situation....

The late Ralph Salerno, famous NYPD organized crime detective, believed it almost in conceivable that Vito Genovese would deal with someone like Cantellops.

On appeal, the government admitted it had suppressed evidence in the trial. Edward Bennett Williams, one of the best criminal lawyers practising at this time, argued brilliantly for Genovese. When he was congratulated him on his performance, he said, ‘Thanks, but there's not a chance. They won't let Genovese out. They'll call it harmless error.’ Which they did, and generally do, when they know the error is harmful in Mafia cases.

Rumours have long existed that Cantellops had been approached by a cartel of mobsters anxious to remove Genovese from the frame, for their own personal reasons.

These four men, according to these underworld rumours, Charley Luciano in Naples, Italy, and Frank Costello, Myer Lansky and Carlo Gambino in America, had put up a $100,000 bribe to induce Nelson to co-operate with the narcotic bureau and help convict Genovese. Costello would obviously have a vested reason in doing this, bearing in mind that he almost certainly knew Genovese was behind the attempt on his life. A rider to the bribe was that it had to include Gigante in the conspiracy so that he would do time as penance for his bungled attempt on Frank. Jimmy ‘Blue Eyes’ Alo, a senior capo in the Genovese family, is alleged to have arranged for an intermediately to travel to Sing Sing prison, and present Cantellops with the deal. It’s cute and cheesy, like a plot out of a Hank Jansen novel. But as a compelling reason upon which to build a hypotheses, about as ephemeral as a butterfly.

And this part is from the same article only its about the Valachi/Genovese situation...

While in New York, the FBN put pressure on him to roll-over and become an informant, telling him that Strollo had gone missing, and was believed murdered on the orders of his best friend and boss, Vito Genovese. The agents also inferred that Joe was next on Genovese’s list of house-cleaning. With these thoughts pressing down on him, Joe was returned to Atlanta.

Here, he became the central character in a bizarre theatre of manipulation, hidden threats and Machiavellian manoeuvres orchestrated by Vito Genovese.

The Don suggested that Joe move into his cell, and share it with the other inmates there, a group of four or five. Genovese kept on at Joe, questioning him about his latest drug conviction, hinting that perhaps he had collaborated with Mauro and Caruso, insinuating that he had not received his cut from these various narcotic transactions and also confirming in an indirect way, that he had been responsible for the death of Strollo.

Vito Agueci was also sent down to Atlanta following his conviction, and began associated closely with inmates Johnny Diouguardi, and Joe DiPalermo, both members of the Luchese family. Valachi began to believe that Agueci was feeding Genovese information through these two men that he was talking to the FBN (which at this time he wasn’t.) Gradually, Joe started to think that Genovese and the other mob inmates were shunning him, isolating him away from the few prisoners he had become close to. One day, DiPalermo offered him a steak sandwich, claiming he had smuggled it out of the prison kitchen. Fearing it was poisoned, Joe threw it in the trash. He stopped using the showers, especially after he was encouraged by Diougardi to do so, fearing the isolation and exposure there, and the possibility of attack.

One night in June, in the cell, Genovese sat talking to him, rambling on about bad apples and how they should be removed; then kissing Joe, for old time’s sake, and asking after the health of his grandchildren, planting seeds, sowing doubts and fear into the mind of a man already on the breaking edge.

In desperation, Joe demanded that the guards incarcerate him in a solitary cell, claiming his life was in danger. This gave him a few days respite, but then he was released, as the prison governor could not be convinced there were grounds for his fears
Joseph Valachi reached his epiphany early in the morning of June 22, 1963. Wandering around the prison grounds, terrified of each and every inmate who passed him, he saw three men moving slowly towards him. There had been construction taking place in the complex, and he grabbed a piece of iron piping as a weapon to defend himself. As Joe DiPalermo, the man he considered his principal tormentor, walked past, he lashed out, striking him in the head. Joe then chased off the other three men, returning to beat DiPalermo to death. Except he killed the wrong man.

and you know the rest of the sotry...

Interesting article, thanks.
Drugs are always used more than everything else for frame-ups. In Russia it's already become a legend how many "Vory v zakone" ("Thieves in law") were framed on drug charges, mostly for drug possession (not that I am sorry though). I wonder why Dewey chose to make a case against Luciano on prostitution charges, not on drug charges.

Good question,neither do i

The most likely answer is that he had a slam-dunk conviction on the prostitution rap because he was able to coerce several prostitutes and other witnesses into testifying against Luciano. Much easier than trying to nail him on drugs. Luciano didn't help himself by agreeing to testify.

Interesting article. Genovese must have suspected that Strollo (aka Tony Bender) was brought into the setup by Luciano. Genovese and Bender were best man at each other's weddings and probably his right hand man for many years.

This piece of document will not answer your question regarding the Luciano/Genovese rift. But it´s interesting because it says that Frank Costello was reinstated into the Genovese Family (after being shelved by Genovese) in 1960. Apparently they had a talk and found out that Tony Bender had played them against eachother in order to grab the leading position in the Family.

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=981009

Maybe. It's easy to place the blame on a duplicitous sycophant like Tony Bender. I'll take a look, and thanks. Tommy Eboli probably should have had his job from the start. He wasn't the brightest, but he wasn't so self serving either, and he went by the book. Hell, the whole Genovese Family is so interesting back then, every part of it. There are still things we don't know.

EDIT: Wow, according to this, a cousin of Vito Genovese named Ralph Genovese skimmed some money from the LA Family. Vito advised that he be returned to New York so no harm could be done. He then informed Jack Dragna that his own cousin had been tied to a table and died, slowly. Sawed in half.

Nice document HairyKnuckles thanx.Heres a pice of an article and list of the ppl arrested with Genovese...

On July 7th, 1958, FBN agents arrested Genovese and 53 other defendants and 14 co-conspirators involved in the conspiracy. Of this group, only Genovese and 16 others were actually indicted. Two of them, evaded the law and did not appear for trial. The two who escaped arrest were Carmine Galante and John Ormento. Those detained were charged with conspiracy to import, conceal and sell heroin.

On January 5th 1959, the group went on trial. The charges laid against them, in full, were:

Conspiracy to import and smuggle narcotics into the United States.
To receive, conceal, possess, buy and sell the drugs.
To dilute, mix and adulterate the drugs prior to distribution.
To distribute the drugs.

On April 17th they were all found guilty and sentenced from five to twenty years. Vito Genovese was given fifteen years. He was initially confined in the Atlanta Penitentiary. The rest of the conspirators were sentenced as under:

Vincent Gigante-7 years. Soldier, Genovese family.
Joe Evola-10 years. Capo, Bonanno family.
Carmine Polizanno- 8years. Associate, Genovese family.
Ralph Polizanno-7 years. Associate, Genovese family
Salvatore Santora-20 years. Capo, Luchese family.
Joseph DiPalermo-15 years. Soldier, Luchese family.
Charlie DiPalermo-20 years. Soldier, Luchese family.
Rocco Mazzie-12 years. Soldier, Anastasia family
Charles Barcellona-5 years. Soldier, Anastasia family.
Daniel Lessa-14 years. Associate, Luchese family.
Nicky Lessa-12 years. Soldier, Luchese family.
Alfredo Aviles-10 years. Associate.
Benjamin Rodriques-10 years. Associate.
Jean Capece-5 years.

and the court's statement...

The Court in its opinion stated (p. 190):

‘They argue that his testimony should have been stricken, that no defendant may be convicted on Cantellops' uncorroborated testimony, and that the indictment should have been dismissed. We do not agree. It was for the jury to judge the witness Cantellops on the basis of all that was brought out about his character, his previous activities.’

The Court further stated on the same page:

‘It is for the jury to say whether his testimony at trial is truthful, in whole or in part, in the light of the witness' demeanour, his explanations and all the evidence in the case.’

It has been claimed that there was no way Genovese would have allowed himself to have been seen in the company of a low level drug dealer like Cantellops. On the other hand, had this low level dealer been the potential conduit to huge amounts of money, it strikes me as more than likely Genovese would have wanted to check him out. Also, the powerful mob boss was almost certainly arrogant in his use of power. He knew, as did everyone around him, that he could have squashed Cantellops like a bug (or a melon.) This kind of attitude could well have made Genovese careless. And, in all fairness to Nelson Cantellops, he admitted that he only actually physically met Genovese briefly, on that one evening on the way to the Bronx meeting.

Thanks for this. How did Charlie Dipalermo (whoever he is) get more time than Vito?

Isn't he the Salvatore Santoro who later became Tony Corallo's underboss? Just being curious.

Dont know about Charlie DiPalermo,but i know that Joe Dipalermo was in jail for narcotics trafficing together with Johnny Diouguardi and he was one of the tormentors of Joe Valachi and put pressure on him...for this Charlie guy...i dunno...bad lawyer?

and Dwalin2011 yes i think hes the one

Was reading the Wiki page on the Havana Conference today. Under 'sidenote'. It sort of cites a source, at least worth looking in to although I don't think it fits with who Joe Bonanno was unless he had still never forgiven Luciano for the murder of Sal Maranzano.

Bonanno was always jealous at Luciano and reason was obvious

And the reason was....?

Luciano was a better boss have to say.. He the Brain of a good Mobster! Worked it all out by himself. Very quiet aswell and didnt show his jealousy, Genovese on the other hand failed to kill Costello and his Jealousy was shown out. Genovese is based on Emilio Barzini..

You are not a mobguy. You are a funnyguy!

The reason why Bonanno was jealous at Luciano...its very simple..Luciano was the chairman(boss of bosses in other words)and Bonanno was not!Bonanno had that castelammarese mentality,his mentor was Maranzano

Let us debunk the thought of Luciano as the "godfather´s godfather", "the founder of the US Mafia", "the creator of the five Families", "the boss of bosses" and whatever else is said about him on Wiki or on attention seeking "documentaries" produced by networks without having done any serious research on the matter.

First of all, the idea of a Commission was circulated among the bosses already during the Castellammarese war in an effort to stop the fighting between Masseria and Maranzano. Maranzano, who was about to win the war and had his eyes focused at the boss of bosses position, naturally rejected the idea. But the idea of a Commission as a governing and ruling body was picked up by Luciano and set in motion after the Maranzano killing with the help of Bonanno, the leader of the Castellammareses and the leader of the winning side in the war.

Second of all, Luciano was never the chairman of the Commission. He was a boss, equal with the rest of them. Simply put, he was just one of a number of Commission members with no special powers or status within the Mafia elite. Because of political ambitions, the myth of Luciano as some sort of a supreme criminal mastermind, was started by Dewey. Luciano was an easy target because he had become the visible face of the mob. Lazy and ignorant journalists further embellished the Luciano legend. He was never a boss of bosses, not even when put between brackets.
The chairman´s position fell on Vincent Mangano because of his superior age. He was replaced by Bonanno and later Magaddino, temporarily, served in this position when Bonanno refused to come in for meetings.

Third of all, the chairman of the Commission never had more votes than the rest of the members. His vote counted the same. He was never a more powerful figure in that regards. His primary function was to serve as a contact person whenever a problem surfaced that needed attention. And it was his job to organize the meetings.
Remember, the chairman had never more formal authority than any other Commission member.
The number of members on the Commission was originally 5, then 7 and then 9. All odd numbers which would assure decisionmaking after voting.

So I don´t understand the jealousy thing. What else was there to be jealous of?
Luciano sent away for 30-50 years for compulsory prostitution, or his deportation to Italy when finally released?