Hi everyone. I've been looking over these boards a lot lately and decided to sign up, its awesome to see so many people with an interest in the history of organized crime. Anyway, just curious on how you would compare the current strength of the Genovese family today to the weakest NY family in the 80's. Is the power comparable or were all the families then much more powerful than even the Genovese's today?

It's easier to make a direct comparison of a family today to itself in the 1980's.

Take the Genovese family. Even though the Genovese family continues to be the top family in the U.S., it too has declined. While it still maintains a presence in the industry, it no longer has a total lock (shared with the Gambinos) on waste hauling in New York. It no longer controls the Javits Center. Or the Fulton Fish Market. It's presence in construction and the waterfront are still there too, but also weakened compared to the 1980's.

The main reason the Genovese family is still on top is that it has declined the least, compared to the other families.

Plus it was enormous to begin with, an advantage not shared by, say, Denver.

The Gambinos also enjoyed this outlier size advantage, but they suffered from having the Gotti gang at the helm for so long. However, they still survived because they were gigantic.

I think having horrible bosses like Amuso and Gaspipe at the helm would have completely destroyed most of the families outside New York. But the Luccheses are still around because they were to big even for those knuckleheads to totally destroy the family. And there were small families who had excellent bosses (like Nick Civella of KC), but that didn't help much because the feds were able to indict everyone in the family who really mattered. You couldn't easily do that with, say, the Colombos; the trial would be a logistical nightmare. Thus the "sinking ship" remains afloat.

So size can help make up for incompetent leadership. The Genovese family has both size and competent bosses, which in the world of mob families is a huge advantage. Nonetheless, Italian-American assimilation still eats away at them (you probably won't be seeing Bellomo's kids getting involved in the life any time soon).

That's why I'm always bringing up the effects of general attrition, as much as some may get tired of me using that phrase. The Chicago family may have more competent leadership and better discipline than, say the Colombos. But because it's numbers alone, the Colombos - despite all the "sinking ship" jokes - will outlast Chicago and every other family outside New York.

i doubt it the italians are so succesful because even when they are millionaire they often introduce their sons cousins nephews in the mafia for generations over generations
i wouldnt be surprised if bellomo or whoever sons get part of it
usually russians albanians chinese and other criminal groups left completely the underworld when they become enough rich or at least they dont involve their sons and nephews so much they are not permanent but extremely flexible but the italians keep up the organization in the time

Doesn't seem to be as common these days though. And more often than not, the mobsters who have benefited from nepotism are fairly unimpressive. (Think about it: What kind of person becomes a gangster in spite of both the difficulty of being involved in organized crime these days AND having been born into privilege?)

One interesting thing you do see occasionally is the children of mobsters going into the educated professions and then doing legitimate work on behalf of mobsters (like Joe Corrozzo Jr.). But his kids probably won't be working for gangsters.

Yep. The only way that the feds would be able to do to a New York family what it has done to the families outside New York that I can think of would be to create a separate task for each crew in the family and another for its administration and then build a bunch of separate but concurrent RICO cases for all the crews. That would be more manageable than trying to indict everyone in one case to deliver a knockout blow. But this scenario is goofy because law enforcement doesn't come anywhere close to prioritizing it that much these days. IIRC, there are now more capos in the New York families than there are FBI agents working American Cosa Nostra investigations. The families are too big, and the manpower and resources aren't there to take them down completely.

But general attrition will still get them in the end, even if it takes another century or so. If in, say, 2050 the families are reduced by general attrition to what New England is like now, the feds could deliver the knockout blow then or a bit before. (Of course afterwards there'd still be the "glorified crew" leftovers.) But they're still too damn big for this to happen right now.

there is so much money that being a member guarantee money and power its still full of sons getting made there are not so much killers anymore but members and there are tons of examples
i think the large majority still enjoy the mafia than educated professions

It's still going on, but how, in terms of overall competence and effectiveness, do these fellows measure up in comparison with their fathers and uncles?

And the important question to ask is: what kind of kid born into wealth, essentially set up for life even before he's conceived, would choose to become a criminal anyway in the 21st century?

As for a "large majority" of mobsters' young relatives getting involved - somehow I doubt that. I bet it's more like 1 in 10 or so. You might be right, but I'll have to see the footnotes before signing off on that one.

the mafia is a secret sect and a tradition and when you grew up into that and you dont become a member youre a nobody thats coz they prefer enjoy it than left that life
when you know your grandfather, father, uncles are all members

I suppose that might have been true to an extent in the past but look at the kids mentioned in media coverage of the mob who are in the mob now in 2012 because their fathers are mobsters... more often than not, this isn't exactly Michael Corleone we're dealing with here.

of course theyre a bit different like its different growing up in the 30s, 60s or today, but the concept is the same

I was talking about competence, not carrying on the tradition.

Every generation of these (literal) families, a fair few of the best and brightest of its youngsters decided to go to into a legitimate profession rather than be gangsters like their fathers. In some cases, the fathers actually make their kids stay out of the rackets and do something legit.

So the dumber kids get picked off by law enforcement, and the smarter ones get picked off by the chance for status and opportunity in the legitimate world. (There are exceptions, I suppose - some of the smart kids probably become gangsters now and then.) It's a gradual downward spiral from which none of the American families are likely to ever recover. It will even take down the Genoveses eventually.

What is the Javits Centre and Tammany Hall?

Tammany Hall was the New York political machine that became synonymous with corruption.

The Javits Center is where many conventions are held in NYC. It was basically mob-controlled from day one. Both with the initial construction early on and through Carpenters Union jobs at the Center afterward.

Just because you are mob connected and make money doing illegal stuff doesn't make you a gangster...these "smart kids" feel it's okay to commit crimes since they have the okay from politicians and city officials who are friends, because there parents were friends and they share money and each others friends

An even more interesting question, what is the families' power compared to ten years ago?

The general attrition rule is something that keeps coming back and back on these boards.

I'm not saying it doesn't hold up, it does to an extent, but what if you are a smart, bright Italian kid in NY, you could go to college and everything. But, you don't want to. You have an uncle, a father or a cousin involved in the live. You like the fast money, the excitement, or you're just being pushed in to the live by a relative and you decide to go for it, even though you have the ability to become anything you want.

A lot of the Italian-American kids in the seventies, eighties and nineties also had every change in the world, it's not like they were getting of the boat at Ellis Island back then. Still, those generations also produced capable mob members.

I thinks its also got something to do with there being a lack of any major mob events such as violence/feuding. During the 60s and 70s you had the heroin trade with the french connection, carmine galante and the blood shed between him and the gambinos, The gallo wars and joseph columbo assassination and the inter family war that followed. Then you also had the bonanno wars, gal ante assassination and the pizza connection, 3 capos murders. Carlo gambinos death, paul castelannos reign, his killing, John got tis ascension to boss and all the murders that followed that. The gasoline tax scam with the russians and also the labour unions infiltration that was running through all this.Then you had the third colombo wars , john got tis arrest and conviction.You also had the pornography business.
If you look at all these things that happened , The ny mafias peak of power was also its most violent times. The problem with new generation could be that there is no galvanising figure or event that really tests them or puts them in the forefront of anything. These days they still find recruits but its not like these kids are ever gone be in any immediate danger of getting killed especially if they have relatives that are made anyway and also the fact a lot of their disputes are resolved with sit downs, the chances that you are gonna produce as many well rounded career criminals that have the smartness, toughness and violent traits needed to be another carlo gambino, galante, lucchese or gigante are very slim.

Im not saying there aint any around, a few younger guys might come up due to the new leadership in some of the families.

they are killing less today just coz police wouldn't let them to start a big mafia war not coz they are not capable iof they could times are different

True, but due to avoiding violence to avoid law enforcement attention, a lot of guys haven't been exposed to murder, so there are less guys capable of doing serious work. That doesn't mean the NYC families are in short supply of enforcers, but the number is probably down significantly compared to the 80s and even the 90s. Then again, with less violence today, it probably doesn't matter as much.

I wasn't saying they weren't capable. I was just making an observation of the times. a lot of these young guys who may have a dad or relative in mob will never really be left to fend for themselves, if a situation gets out of control their fathers gonna step in and help them eventually as well as give him more advantages when it comes to making money cause its all going into their family anyway. And there are plenty examples of this.

a smart hing with the genovese family is there control. a soldier who fliped went to the bronx to see acting boss artie nigro with a court paper saying al bruno was a snitch, nigro brought the soldier to a table of 6 guys who gave him the death penalty. nigro got life and a couple fliped but i always wonder who or what the 6 man thing was about like they were the hit jury.think it was 2003. there was also a 250k cigaret deal that went bad, they still do untaxed cigarets in this day in age funny.

That "tradition" means a lot more in Italy than it does here in the States.

Also, the legit job opportunities are much harder to come by in Italy. In southern Italy and Sicily, anyway.

It makes no difference. In a place like Sicily, if you're born into a mafia family and want to lead a legit life, the state will be on your ass and make your life hell regardless. You can never be out of your family.

Well put.

Whenever I see the word 'tradition', I think of the Joe Bonanno book. He uses the term about ten times on every single page .

The first part of the 1980's were still very good for the very proud Chicago Outfit. They had tremendous power in Chicago and Las Vegas. they pretty much represented all the smaller families west of the Mississippi. They had at least 60 active made guys, 240 full time soldier/associates who had specific jobs and worked for the made guys, plus all the other associates who either did business with the Outfit on the street level or were controlled by the Outfit on a higher level. Each made man did very well for himself and there were countless numbers of them who were millionaires in their own right plus some who were multi-millionaires. The guys who belonged to the crews who worked full time for the made guys did very well for themselves.
Then, around 1985 or so, everything started to change for the worst. Rico Act came into play and the huge disaster of the Strawman case. This forever changed everything and started the Outfit on a steady decline. Auippa, Cerone, Lombardo, and
LaPietra all went to jail. A couple of the Kansas City top guys went to Jail. They basically lost Las Vegas.
Then the Convictons from the Rico act continued plus attrition continued in more full force.
Rocky Infelice and his guys went to jail.
Dominic Cortina & Donald Angelini and their guys went to jail.
Sam Carlisi, Jimmy Marcello and their guys went to jail.
Frank & Nick Calabrese and their guys went to jail.
Marco D'Amico and his guys went to jail.
Al Tocco and his guys went to jail.
Joe Ferriola died.
Mooch Eboli died.
Lee Magnafichi died.
Joey DiVarco died.
Vince Solano died.
Johnny DiFronzo retreated.
Joey Andriacchi retreated.
Pete DiFronzo retreated.
Get the picture?
The once very proud Outfit of the early 1980's will never return. If they do, it will take a miracle to return to THAT KIND of power in the city of Chicago out to the West Coast.