With the 5 NY families, Philly and New England mostly we all agree on here about the membership numbers and what their involved with. Why though is there always such varying opinions on the Outfit? Not just on here but other sites as well. We know how bad wikipedia can be as a source but I saw something on there recently saying the Genovese were only rivalled in size by the Gambino's and the Outfit.
Also from time to time we get posters on here shouting about how the Outfit has 200+ made guys, run Chicago, have judges, politicians in their pockets etc etc.
Why is this? We don't get people saying the Gambino's have 450 made guys on the street. If we are comparing the Outfit to a current family who are they on a level with?

A made man in the outfit is like a capo in NY, he has a crew of "members" under him and his capo is the street boos of that territory. Th numbers are always off because a made man in th outfit holds more power than one in NY, th "members" of th outfit are the same as a made man in NY, thats th wwy i see it atleast.

A lot of Outfit followers are saying John DiFronzo basically split the Outfit in to two factions once he was released from jail. The criminal Michael Sarno/James Marcello faction who go around fire bombing and threatening peoople, and DiFronzo's own legitimate Elmwood Park crew with Marco D'amico, Joe the Builder, and others. Looking at them as two separate families is a little extreme but in any case DiFronzo doesn't want to make Sarno and seems to want to stick with union bidding and construction stuff while he separates himself from hotheads who want to destroy the town. This is my favorite theory for what's going on in The Outfit, but if it's factual, I'm not sure. The only thing that's certain is DiFronzo has imposed a ban on narcotics trafficking within his own group of associates - due to the death of his son via overdose.

And Daniel's correct, I'm not sure if that's how 'made men' work, but capos have always had their own Underbosses, in a sense.

Where to begin?

An outdated image of the Chicago Outfit is held by some people, more than any other LCN family. I think part of it was due to certain unique factors about the Outfit back in the day. Which, in turn, have led to people still equating just about any and all corruption and organized crime in Chicago with the Outfit. Beyond that, most mob books cover the distant past. So we tend to use the news and more recent cases to shape our view of how things currently are. But, at least compared to the NY families, there hasn't been as much activity in Chicago. So I think an image is frozen in people's minds of the Outfit they read about in Roemer's books or whatever - the Outfit of the 1950's or 1970's.

Though that kind of misinformation on Wikipedia shouldn't surprise anyone, the fact that some really do believe the Outfit rivals the Genovese and Gambinos in size today shows how misguided some are. If we go with just the most recent official figures, and not numbers people pull out of thin air for their own purposes, it's not even comparable. The Genovese family is said to have approximately 200 total members and about 1,000 associates. The Outfit is said to have around 25-30 total members and a little over 100 associates. So you're comparing a total manpower of 1,200 for the Genovese to perhaps 150 for the Outfit. In other words, going by the official figures, the Genovese family is 8 times the size of the Outfit.

I've said it many times. The modern day Chicago mob is much more comparable, in both size and scope of activity, to the other remaining families outside New York - New England, New Jersey, Philadelphia. The only difference, looking at the official figures, is that the feds estimate Chicago to have a bigger ratio of associates to members (5 associates for every member) than the other smaller families (2 associates for every member).

By far the most interesting thing about the Chicago mob is their lack of activity with the other families in the United States. There was a thing with Rudy Fratto having deals with Cleveland mobsters for some gambling and construction deal, which is shocking consider there's still wiseguys in Cleveland. The northeastern families all for one instance or another have communications with each other, i.e. like Nicky Stefanelli who recently killed himself. There doesn't seem to be that with Chicago. The McCormick plaza seems to be the 9/11 to what construction jobs were to the NY families.

The Family Secrets trial seemed to have taken out the older generation and higher ups of that family. I've noticed there seems to be a far older age of those named in indictments vs. the NY families.

To me the Chicago mob is by far the most interesting as there is simply not much to go on for the civilian mob watcher. Philly is easy to find info on, same with New York and the Providence boys. Chicago doesn't seem to warrant the same amount of journalistic interest that the other families do. And when it comes to the Midwestern families....."family". I'd say Chicago is the only one with real structure, Detroit may just be a crew or two.

This, this, this. One thing about Chicago is the lack of recent news on the family, except Family Secrets, which took out guys in their 70's. I'm curious to see the size of the FBI squad on Chicago. I know the Genovese get their own, I think the Gambino's do too. And I've heard that the other 3 NY families have to share a squad --- which shows the manpower and strength of those families.

Michael Sarno's work with the Outlaw Motorcycle gang does show some strength, contrary to what some may think, i.e. why would a "large" family with it's own man power hire out someone else, wouldn't that show that said family needs help? My opinion, this show that the family, or at least Sarno's crew is large enough or violent enough to warrant the Outlaws not to try to screw over the crew, which is an indicator of the strength and activity of the family, or at least Sarno's crew.

What I really want to know is the size of FBI squads for each Midwestern family, as Ivy says, that'd be a great indicator on the activity of the mob out there.

Im new to the Outfit other than Capone is what i need to say first, so the fact that i got that half way righ is actually all thanks to you i think Barrett. Did you post the article about Momo by the guy who worshiped him? In the comments on the article there are many great posts about pputting together a chart for the Outfit at the time of the Momo hit.

I believe only the Genovese family has it's own squad at the moment. Then there's the Gambino/Lucchese squad and the Colombo/Bonanno squad. There's around 50 or so total agents in these NY squads, which is the lowest it's been in a long time. I don't think any of the smaller families outside NY have their own squads. Just individual agents plus whatever resources the local cops put on it.

IMO, there's a few reasons for this.

The Outfit has always been very different for the fact that they are the only thing in town. So I think "official" numbers are different than in NYC. One thing for sure, they have gotten smaller.

They used to have 6 crews and now I've read they are down to 3 or 4. It's been listed, like someone else said, that they they have 25-35 made guys and one hundred associates. This again is confusing because The Outfit makes very few people and knowing who is made is confusing because in the change of them not having a ceremony (not having a ceremony, to having a ceremony, to who knows), so being made can be confusing. Some people think Nick Calabrese made up the making ceremony he testified to and others have said they never got a pin prick or the such.

With the Outfit, being made is like being a Capo in NYC and being an associate is like being a soldier. So is that 100 associates, made guys and workers or just random guys, like bookies and such? Probably somewhere in between.

The Outfit also, from what I have read, has gone extremely low key and quiet since DiFronzo took over. It appears that this seems to be by choice. So is it by choice or is it because they are just really weak?

Also, the outfit is the only thing in town. Like others have said, in NYC the more made guys you have the more powerful the family. I have always thought that if there is no competition why does the number of made guys matter? If I'm the outfit, I stop making guys. They survived for 50-70 years without having a ceremony, why not just stop making people? In thirty years, you'll have no made guys. You'll be "dead".

Like another poster said, I have read that the outfit has been cut into 2 groups, north and south. That the north, run by Difronzo, has gone extremely low key. That DiFronzo doesn't want anybody doing anything that could get him in trouble. They say he makes a ton of money and doesn't want to risk it. Then in the south you have the more traditional crews, doing the work. And the north and south have little interactions. People really don't know who is in charge. Is this split the reason? Are they being sneaky or are they just weak?

Looking at the history of the outfit, even people being made have been a big argument amongst people and police. In NYC it seems people know who the made guys are. Cops and mafia fans, but in Chicago it always unknown. It's been like that for a very long time. It's just secretive. One made guy has ever flipped. Just a different type of thing.

There was a guy that they (FBI and papers) said was extremely high up, who the FBI didn't even know was supposedly made, Al 'Pizza Man" Tornabene. Guy died in 2009, no police record, supposedly was running parts of the outfit. Secretive or is this a sign at how weak the outfit has become? Could see it both ways.

Right about all of that. This is a case where lack of indictments and headlines has to be partially attributed to the leadership. And more importantly on the subject of made guys, it can't be said they're working in the same ways as the five families. Michael Sarno isn't made, yet he's a power player and eligible. Fair enough, he's a bit unstable. But when he wanted his button, he needed permission from Marco D'amico. Marco D'amico himself isn't even made. DiFronzo does things differently.

Talking about lack of indictments, lots of people seem to think DiFronzo is a dry snitch or a snitch. Based on the fact that he wasn't indicted with everyone else in the family secrets trial, even though Nick C said he saw him there in the basement.

Maybe he will be in the often rumored 'Family Secrets 2" trial?

I doubt he's a rat or that there will be a second trial, but lots of idle speculation.

One thing about both St. Louis and Chicago was that they were both deep, deep, deep into the cities' political structures--I think even more so than in the Northeast. Both were able to buy themselves a lot of protection and a lot of secrecy--the SLPD, for example, has never admitted the existence of an LCN family here (not that they have to now, since it's more or less extinct). I think both the Giordanos and the Outfit were protected from on high--in St. L by Mayor Cervantes and about a zillion different aldermen, in Chicago by Daley.

My brother, who lived in Chicago for years, described native Chicagoans as "a breed apart," and the same holds true for their "family." I've never been able to decide whether the Outfit is am LCN family according to the standard definition. I've heard they don't make guys in the traditional way--I've heard they make non-Italians--I've heard that there was tension early on between them and other cities because Capone was a Neapolitan, not a Sicilian--I've heard all kinds of weird stuff about them. Not sure what to believe and what not to believe.

Russo and Roemer aside, a lot of what is said about Chicago seems to be mostly guesswork and rumors.

Oh yeah. I've said this before, but it bears repeating: the flourishing of the Outfit in the past is a symptom of a culture of corruption that had been in place in that city since 1850 or so and will be be around long after the Outfit is gone.

The corruption in Chicago was ridiculous. It is almost hard to comprehend how bad it was and how prevalent. Still could be. They fixed murder trials, named judges, etc, etc.

Pat Marcy controlled the political machine for years as head of the Chicago Democratic Party. He named judges, attorneys, etc,etc. William Hanhardt was the #3 cop in Chicago and was on the Outfit payroll. Dick Cain was chief investigator for the cook county sheriffs department. And these are the ones we know about. How many people, lower than these, don't we know about.

So many governors have been arrested for corruption, so many mayors, it's ridiculous.

Look up operation Gambat.

Another thing about the outfit and made status. Was that Pat Marcy, head of the Chicago Democratic Party was a made guy. No one knew this. Fred Roti, most powerful aldermen for years, was a made guy. Heads of unions, were made guys and no one know knew or cared that they were made guys with legit jobs.

Seems everybody was on the take. Cops, aldermen, city officials. Like someone said, it seems like it's always been this way.

That is where the power came from. Political and police. They paid off so many cops and judges and politicians.

Notice how, even now, people are going way back for their examples. Pat Marcy? Fred Roti? In other discussions I've had people still bring up Gus Alex, the Camel, and even Jake Guzik. Yes, the Outfit was deep into political corruption years ago. But now, it's on a much more limited, localized basis. Not nearly as all encompassing as it once was.

I can't name a single non-Italian that is in a high up position in the hierarchy of the modern day Outfit. And what's more, I personally think people's idea of the hierarchy itself is outdated. This "soldiers are like captains and associates are like soldiers" business. I really haven't seen any evidence that we're still dealing with these large crews where you have the Area Boss, and below him a few Street Bosses, and below each of them several soldiers, and below them several more associates with sub crews of their own.

From what I can tell, just by looking at the info over the past 10-15 years at most, we're dealing with a much smaller, much less hierarchical, much more streamlined, organization. Which is why I find the official estimates of 25-30 members and a little over 100 associates very believable.

Well, yeah, but at least no one mentioned Lenny Patrick.

You just did.

I felt bad for him, left out of the conversation and all.

Still wondering where these 150+ made members the Outfit still had in the 1980s went when they were suddenly estimated to have 50 made members in the early 90s. I suppose most of them died during that time frame.

Well, yeah, I was responding to the previous poster who was talking about the outfit's power in the past based on there political connections. That was my point, the outfit's power into the 80's was ridiculous.

Why would a non-italian in a high up position in today's outfit mean anything? I'm confused by that statement. Are you just stating a fact?

I think the hierarchy is still the same. Why does the size of the crew matter? If there are 3-4 crews and each crew has a boss and each crew boss has 5 soldiers and those soldiers have associates, it's still the same hierarchy. Why would the hierarchy change if the size of the family was smaller?

I agree about the estimates being correct, they only have 3-4 crews, down from 7. So those numbers makes sense. I actually think they have junked the making ceremony and possibly making people all together. I wouldn't be surprised if Difronzo is making the outfit considerably smaller on purpose. By wanting it smaller or not caring anymore, either or, it's smaller.

Well, to give you an idea, just since 2000, there have been 18 Outfit members that have died.




As long as one differentiates between the past and today, there isn't a problem. But there have been more than a few posters who think that level of influence once held by the Outfit still exists.



One of the reasons the folks who claim the Outfit is still as powerful as ever, and why we can't use the same criteria to evaluate it like other families, is because of it's unique traits. The problem is, most of those unique traits don't really apply anymore. One being non-Italians holding high level positions in the organization. It's just another example of how the view held by some (not necessarily you though) of the Outfit is outdated.



I think the hierarchy has changed because the Outfit is a much smaller organization now. They don't need all those rank levels, nor do they have the manpower to fill them. I'd be willing to bet that the crews left in the Outfit are much like crews elsewhere.



You're right, the Outfit did actually become smaller on purpose. They did that by streamlining the organization back in the 1990's by merging crews together.

5+ years ago, 4 remaining crews for the Outfit were cited. More recently, I've seen articles that have cited 2 or 3. And one article did talk about the Outfit now being run in "northern and southern sections." I've wondered if that was the representative of what we've heard more recently about DiFronzo and his more "white collar/legit" wing in the north and the more "blue collar/street rackets" wing in the south.

As for the ceremony, it wouldn't surprise me if they did do away with it. The last one Nick Calabrese was aware of was in the 1980's. Sure, one could argue there are guys in the organization who technically aren't made and yet have made status. But that doesn't change the total manpower over all.

Former Political Boss (First Ward-Chicago) Pat Marcy was born in Chicago to an Italian-American family. His original name was Pasqualino Marchone. Many believe that he changed it hoping that a non-Italian alias would help him stay under the "radar" and advance his political aspirations. In his day, he pulled A LOT of strings.

You know yourself that the Outfit had at least 150 made members in the mid 1970s. So for 100 guys to die within 15 years still seems a bit odd to me. Maybe many of them retired somewhere in the 1980s and the FBI only recognised the remaining active members? If not, either the FBI's estimates were wrong or something really strange happened. I do not question that the Outfit had 150-200 full fledged members until the 1980s.

Because the Outfit didn't start using the blood and fire ceremony until later, and the feds didn't find about it until even later than that, the membership estimates of the Outfit back then are not as solid as they are for other families. So I'm not totally sure about that 150-200 figure.

But, in any event, we've definitely seen a downward trend in the estimates. The CCC estimated about 70 in the late 1990's. Eventually the FBI starting quoting anywhere from 25 to 50 made guys. And most recently, during the "Family Secrets" case, 28 made guys was the number cited. I tend to go with the latest figures because they're going to be more accurate and based on the most intel.

Some may be surprised to know that over 60 Genovese members have died in the last 15 years.

Sorry if that didn't come across as clear as I wanted. I was specifically referring to the outfit's political connections in the 70-80's.

Regarding the outfit becoming two different groups:

From what others have said, this has in fact happened and that the outfit is not really 'a syndicate' anymore. That it's become like NYC, in that there are two unconnected outfits operating in the city.

I don't think it's gotten to that point. At least I haven't seen any proof of that. It's still the same organization, over all.

IVY, any specific place you get your Chicago info from?

It's harder to find info on them, obviously the point of the thread, but I've always searched for places and they always end up going down after a while. Always looking for a good place to get Chicago info.

Thanks.

Except for the recent books on the "Family Secrets" trial, most books on the Outfit are from the fairly distant past. So it's just a matter of reading current news articles and paying attention to current cases.

Here's a few relatively recent articles in case you haven't read them...

http://www.laborers.org/ChicagoMag_Moblite_12_00.htm
http://www.ipsn.org/characters/new_outfit.htm
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=5681103
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2007-09-30/news/0709300075_1_chicago-outfit-mob-boss-calabrese

I remember you writing that a member on the real deal forum who was considered to be an expert on the Outfit had stated that the Outfit peaked at 150 made members (who went through the ceremony) in the 1970s. So that number actually comes from you. I think it's reasonable to assume that the Outfit had that many back in those days. I'm thinking that they probably even had more in the 1950s, when they were at their height.