3 registered members (m2w, mustachepete, 1 invisible),
327
guests, and 10
spiders. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums21
Topics42,390
Posts1,059,984
Members10,349
|
Most Online796 Jan 21st, 2020
|
|
|
Mafia's Future
#641230
03/22/12 10:18 PM
03/22/12 10:18 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 48 New York City
EVL
OP
Wiseguy
|
OP
Wiseguy
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 48
New York City
|
Over on my blog, http://cosa-nostra-news.blogspot.com/, you can see a series of charts that show some trends in global crime outfits, primarily in terms of size, that make LCN seem like a fart in the wind. As I wrote, "With 1,100 members, 80% of which are tripping over one another in New York and its outer boroughs, the American "La Cosa Nostra," which is the official FBI term for the U.S.-based Mafia, is a mere hill of beans compared with other criminal outfits around the world. "Just look at this chart... The Italian Comorra has 7,000 members -- but even that is a drop in the bucket when compared with the Russian mob, which has over 300,000 members around the world; the Triads, at 250,000; and the Yakuza, at 86,000. "Maybe AG Holder was on to something when he consolidated the Fed's focus on O.C. in this country." You need to scroll down to about the third post... Hope you find it edifying, if not necessarily enjoyable...
|
|
|
Re: Mafia's Future
[Re: EVL]
#641255
03/23/12 12:17 AM
03/23/12 12:17 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
IvyLeague
|
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
|
Over on my blog, http://cosa-nostra-news.blogspot.com/, you can see a series of charts that show some trends in global crime outfits, primarily in terms of size, that make LCN seem like a fart in the wind. As I wrote, "With 1,100 members, 80% of which are tripping over one another in New York and its outer boroughs, the American "La Cosa Nostra," which is the official FBI term for the U.S.-based Mafia, is a mere hill of beans compared with other criminal outfits around the world. "Just look at this chart... The Italian Comorra has 7,000 members -- but even that is a drop in the bucket when compared with the Russian mob, which has over 300,000 members around the world; the Triads, at 250,000; and the Yakuza, at 86,000. "Maybe AG Holder was on to something when he consolidated the Fed's focus on O.C. in this country." You need to scroll down to about the third post... Hope you find it edifying, if not necessarily enjoyable... The American LCN is primarily a domestic operation. One that isn't really even national in scope anymore. So it's obviously different from the larger syndicates that are international in scope. That 1,100 figure was actually from 1999 when the UN cited it. Since then, according to the FBI, the total membership in the U.S. is down to about 1,000. At least 70% of it being the 5 NY families. If you throw the other remaining northeast families in there - New England, New Jersey, and Philadelphia - it goes up to 85%. Throw in the rest of the remaining members in the northeast and you're probably looking at close to 90% of the mob's membership in that single region of the country. Or, to put it another way, you could add up all of the remaining members outside of the northeast and it would roughly equal the smallest NY family. I've always said that, if we're talking international groups, the Italian syndicates are a much better example than the American mob. But even then, you have to take a lot of these especially large membership estimates with a grain of salt. Even the experts don't always agree. For example, the FBI cites the Cosa Nostra as having 5,000 members and the 'Ndrangheta as having 6,000. However, Mafia expert, Letizia Paoli, cites the Cosa Nostra as having 3,500 members and the 'Ndrangheta 5,000. In other places I've seen 10,000 cited for the 'Ndrangheta. And 7,000 for the Camorra. The FBI cites 2,000 for the SCU but estimates for them vary as well. Getting into even much larger figures, like 300,000 for the Russians, 250,000 for the Chinese, and 86,000 for the Japanese can be even harder to read.
Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
|
|
|
Re: Mafia's Future
[Re: Dapper_Don]
#641257
03/23/12 12:19 AM
03/23/12 12:19 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 422 Tampa and Queens
Skinny_Vinny
Capo
|
Capo
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 422
Tampa and Queens
|
Plus I feel that the Russians are largely involved in White Collar crime like Medicare fraud which is much harder to get busted/draw attention than traditional organized crime rackets like loan sharking, extortion, etc. I agree. Identity theft and the stuff you mentioned are their big things. Being from Queens, I pay in cash for just about everything I purchase these days. I won't get a "Key Food" card or fill out info at the pharmacy or health club because I know what will happen. Restaurants too. Pay in cash! The Russians have all these ambulette services around Queens that take sick old people from doctor to doctor all day long. It's a huge scam.
|
|
|
Re: Mafia's Future
[Re: EVL]
#641259
03/23/12 12:25 AM
03/23/12 12:25 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
IvyLeague
|
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
|
Salvine, who was a poster over on the Real Deal back in the day and a retired federal law enforcement officer, said that, the most of the international groups don't have the same presence in the U.S. that they do throughout much of the rest of the world, which he said is almost like an "open buffet." Obviously the Mexicans, who are right next door, are an exception. But the Italians, Russians, Chinese, Albanians have a "healthy respect" for American law enforcement and so they don't try to become as entrenched in the U.S. as they are elsewhere.
In other words, the new ethnic groups here haven't had the same opportunity to become entrenched like the Italians did. The LCN had a half century before RICO was first used. The newer groups don't have that luxury, which is why the predictions about them in this country haven't come true for the most part.
Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
|
|
|
Re: Mafia's Future
[Re: IvyLeague]
#641268
03/23/12 01:20 AM
03/23/12 01:20 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,089 Brooklyn, New York
Dapper_Don
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,089
Brooklyn, New York
|
Salvine, who was a poster over on the Real Deal back in the day and a retired federal law enforcement officer, said that, the most of the international groups don't have the same presence in the U.S. that they do throughout much of the rest of the world, which he said is almost like an "open buffet." Obviously the Mexicans, who are right next door, are an exception. But the Italians, Russians, Chinese, Albanians have a "healthy respect" for American law enforcement and so they don't try to become as entrenched in the U.S. as they are elsewhere.
In other words, the new ethnic groups here haven't had the same opportunity to become entrenched like the Italians did. The LCN had a half century before RICO was first used. The newer groups don't have that luxury, which is why the predictions about them in this country haven't come true for the most part. really good point
Tommy Shots: They want me running the family, don't they know I have a young wife? Sal Vitale: (laughs) Tommy, jump in, the water's fine.
|
|
|
Re: Mafia's Future
[Re: Skinny_Vinny]
#641269
03/23/12 01:22 AM
03/23/12 01:22 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,089 Brooklyn, New York
Dapper_Don
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,089
Brooklyn, New York
|
Plus I feel that the Russians are largely involved in White Collar crime like Medicare fraud which is much harder to get busted/draw attention than traditional organized crime rackets like loan sharking, extortion, etc. I agree. Identity theft and the stuff you mentioned are their big things. Being from Queens, I pay in cash for just about everything I purchase these days. I won't get a "Key Food" card or fill out info at the pharmacy or health club because I know what will happen. Restaurants too. Pay in cash! The Russians have all these ambulette services around Queens that take sick old people from doctor to doctor all day long. It's a huge scam. You aint kidding, I have personally seen a bunch of healthcare fraud being done by Russians over in the Bronx. It is crazy the amount of cash these smart guys must be pulling in.
Tommy Shots: They want me running the family, don't they know I have a young wife? Sal Vitale: (laughs) Tommy, jump in, the water's fine.
|
|
|
Re: Mafia's Future
[Re: Dapper_Don]
#641270
03/23/12 01:29 AM
03/23/12 01:29 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 422 Tampa and Queens
Skinny_Vinny
Capo
|
Capo
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 422
Tampa and Queens
|
Plus I feel that the Russians are largely involved in White Collar crime like Medicare fraud which is much harder to get busted/draw attention than traditional organized crime rackets like loan sharking, extortion, etc. I agree. Identity theft and the stuff you mentioned are their big things. Being from Queens, I pay in cash for just about everything I purchase these days. I won't get a "Key Food" card or fill out info at the pharmacy or health club because I know what will happen. Restaurants too. Pay in cash! The Russians have all these ambulette services around Queens that take sick old people from doctor to doctor all day long. It's a huge scam. You aint kidding, I have personally seen a bunch of healthcare fraud being done by Russians over in the Bronx. It is crazy the amount of cash these smart guys must be pulling in. Yup. Take a walk around Forest Hills between Grand Central and 108th Street. There are three or four mansions being constructed or renovated on every street. No exaggeration. They put the mafia mansions of Middle Village and Howard Beach to shame.
|
|
|
Re: Mafia's Future
[Re: EVL]
#641277
03/23/12 04:16 AM
03/23/12 04:16 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 659 Newcastle Upon Tyne
short841
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 659
Newcastle Upon Tyne
|
you got to realize is the sicilians and us lcn have member and associates! dont knoe but msybe the chinese russians albanians dont have members and associates. maybe there all members?
"You shouldn’t be embarrassed by your wealth. This contempt for money is another trick by the rich to keep the poor without it" - Michael Corleone
"You don't have to count the dead to understand the business of the Camorra" Gomorrah, Roberto Saviano
|
|
|
Re: Mafia's Future
[Re: Strax]
#641279
03/23/12 04:46 AM
03/23/12 04:46 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 572
Ivan
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 572
|
Italian and Russian mafia are 2 most powerful OC groups in the world,not the quantity but the quality. The Yakuza are probably the most entrenched, "inextricably interwoven into the fabric of society" organized crime syndicate in the world, though I'm not sure how they would fare in a comparison of the "quality" of the average member.
|
|
|
Re: Mafia's Future
[Re: NickyScarfo]
#641283
03/23/12 05:20 AM
03/23/12 05:20 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
IvyLeague
|
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
|
Is American law enforcement the strongest in the world? Is America the hardest place for OC to thrive now? I'd say American law enforcement, with it's resources, experience in organized crime investigations, RICO, the witness protection program, etc. is the most prepared to confront emerging crime groups and prevent them from becoming entrenched. We also have to remember that it often comes to an agency jurisdictional thing. The FBI investigates the LCN, as well as the Russian, Asian, and Balkan criminal enterprises. The DEA is the agency that goes after the purely drug-trafficking groups the most, i.e. the Mexicans, Colombians, etc. Although there is obviously some overlap.
Last edited by IvyLeague; 03/23/12 05:22 AM.
Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
|
|
|
Re: Mafia's Future
[Re: short841]
#641288
03/23/12 07:00 AM
03/23/12 07:00 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 26 London, UK
ciccogol
Wiseguy
|
Wiseguy
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 26
London, UK
|
you got to realize is the sicilians and us lcn have member and associates! dont knoe but msybe the chinese russians albanians dont have members and associates. maybe there all members? This guy is right. If you say that Camorra has 7000 members and the Russian mafia has 300000 people, then I understand the confusion. Using the Camorra as an example, the 7000 pretty much refers to the total members in the clans...this totally excludes all the young guys pushing drugs for them in the squares, all the people who work for them distributing contraband, dropping off items, laundering money. These are people who we would traditionally consider to be 'members' but is simply the formal structure of the group that means we have to say the camorra 'only' has 7000. For example, it is estimated that they pretty much directly employ 300,000-400,000 in Campania alone. The Russians, for example as we all know, have a much more loose, renegade structure so it is easy to count even Pavel who sometimes steals vodka from the shop as an OC veteran...
|
|
|
Re: Mafia's Future
[Re: Skinny_Vinny]
#641307
03/23/12 11:53 AM
03/23/12 11:53 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296 Throggs Neck
pizzaboy
The Fuckin Doctor
|
The Fuckin Doctor
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
|
Take a walk around Forest Hills between Grand Central and 108th Street. There are three or four mansions being constructed or renovated on every street. No exaggeration. They put the mafia mansions of Middle Village and Howard Beach to shame. You ain't kidding. I was a business agent (Teamsters Local 813) for the funeral directors and hearse drivers at Parkside Chapel and Schwartz Brothers (among others), which are both on Queens Boulevard, so I spent quite a bit of time in that area. There are tons of moneyed Russian and Bukharian Jews in that neighborhood. Now I'm not implying that they're all crooks, but they can't all be barbers . I was out there just last week to have lunch with a friend on Austin Street. On my way back to Throggs Neck, I took the side streets to the Grand Central. You have to see some of the houses going up by the old Parkway hospital on 113th Street. They're beyond belief. They kind of remind me of the houses that went up on Ocean Parkway in Brooklyn a few years back. They were knocking down million dollar homes just for the sake of putting up new ones.
"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
|
|
|
Re: Mafia's Future
[Re: IvyLeague]
#641309
03/23/12 12:03 PM
03/23/12 12:03 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296 Throggs Neck
pizzaboy
The Fuckin Doctor
|
The Fuckin Doctor
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
|
In other words, the new ethnic groups here haven't had the same opportunity to become entrenched like the Italians did. The LCN had a half century before RICO was first used. The newer groups don't have that luxury, which is why the predictions about them in this country haven't come true for the most part. That says it all, Ivy. They'll never be another prohibition. They'll never be another Tammany Hall to protect the bosses from prosecution. Those days are long gone. No ethnic group (including the present day Italians) will ever have the same opportunities that the Italian American gangsters did eighty years ago. All that said, OC will always be around to some degree because people will always want to gamble and borrow money (among other things). Someone will be there to provide these services. Whether it's the Italians, the Chinese, the Russians or the Albanians, there will always be criminal minded opportunistic people in the world.
"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
|
|
|
Re: Mafia's Future
[Re: IvyLeague]
#641332
03/23/12 02:01 PM
03/23/12 02:01 PM
|
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
Sonny_Black
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
|
Getting into even much larger figures, like 300,000 for the Russians, 250,000 for the Chinese, and 86,000 for the Japanese can be even harder to read. The Russians and Chinese don't have the same initiation rituals as the Italian Mafia. On that chart, only the "made members" of the Mafia are shown as opposed to all the associates of the different criminal syndicates, and even then these numbers are likely inflated. It's not a good comparison.
"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
|
|
|
Re: Mafia's Future
[Re: Parisi]
#641599
03/25/12 07:49 PM
03/25/12 07:49 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
IvyLeague
|
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
|
Very interesting charts. Although I can't help but think that strictly speaking in the next 40+ years all genuine Italian-American's in La Cosa Nostra will eventually die out. And after each spouse and each generation has passed surely LCN will then have to implement guys from Southern Italy?
Just like the Westies who went from a prominently Irish ethnic organization to an influx of Serbian members.
People were floating that theory about bringing Italians over 20 years ago. Eventually all the families will give way to general attrition - the last being the 5 NY families. I'm not sure how long it will take but they will always be Italian-American crime families for as long as they're around.
Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
|
|
|
Re: Mafia's Future
[Re: EVL]
#641630
03/26/12 03:11 AM
03/26/12 03:11 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 659 Newcastle Upon Tyne
short841
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 659
Newcastle Upon Tyne
|
i think theres 16000 associates in sicily
"You shouldn’t be embarrassed by your wealth. This contempt for money is another trick by the rich to keep the poor without it" - Michael Corleone
"You don't have to count the dead to understand the business of the Camorra" Gomorrah, Roberto Saviano
|
|
|
Re: Mafia's Future
[Re: IvyLeague]
#641632
03/26/12 03:29 AM
03/26/12 03:29 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 581 Orange County, CA
Nicholas
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 581
Orange County, CA
|
People were floating that theory about bringing Italians over 20 years ago. Eventually all the families will give way to general attrition - the last being the 5 NY families. I'm not sure how long it will take but they will always be Italian-American crime families for as long as they're around.
Speaking of, what do you think of independent Italian criminals in the United States, you've mentioned that poster at RD who's talked about the respect that foreign criminals have the power of American law-enforcement, I imagine this also applies to Italian, real Italian wiseguys. Is there a zero presence of Ndrengheta, Cosa Nostra, or Camorra guys in the United States, or do they cozy up with Italian-American wiseguys?
"The Feds are a business Anthony, millions of tax dollars are invested in watching your ass, sooner or later, just like you, their gonna want a return on their investment." --- Neil Mink, Tony Soprano's lawyer
|
|
|
Re: Mafia's Future
[Re: IvyLeague]
#641633
03/26/12 04:00 AM
03/26/12 04:00 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 572
Ivan
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 572
|
Eventually all the families will give way to general attrition - the last being the 5 NY families. I'm not sure how long it will take but they will always be Italian-American crime families for as long as they're around. I do think the New York families will always be around in one form or another, but they will probably eventually mutate into something else. In 100 years they will be virtually unrecognizable I bet. Things are going to get really interesting when the cohort of mobsters born between 1920-1940 finally dies out. As I have said before, when that happens, the Genovese family will probably turn into just another mob gang instead of the whole "Ivy League" thing. For some reason I find the whole attrition process fascinating to observe.
|
|
|
|