i think the role of ontario clans are just speculations so far, there is not any evident fact conferming it

montagna links and visiting ontario are speculations
a debt that dates back in 2005 has nothing to do with then taking over
if like you claim ontario is involved they wouldn't wait so much and they start attacking rizzuto's suddenly after the opeation colisee in 2006
it's obvious that the war started when montagna was deported and boss of zip catalano released from prison

montagna links and visiting ontario are speculations

Spartan,

Do you think Montanga was with the Ontario guys or against them? The writers of Mafia Inc. indicate that he was with them as they state he made several trips to Ontario and was received with respect.

ontario clan except a crew in hamilton is not part of LCN and anyway montagna needn't them he knew several zips from NY
honestly, there are more wiseguys in the bonanno family than whole canada
but according to you a bunch of nobody from granby could take over the world and the bonanno's full of zips and connections not
it's laughable, just laughable

but according to you a bunch of nobody from granby could take over the world and the bonanno's full of zips and connections not it's laughable, just laughable

I can tell you that between the various clans in the Toronto area, there are a lot more member and associates than the Bonnanos in NYC.

IvyLeague posted an article here a while ago which stated that Italian authorities named 40 members of all the 9 locali in Toronto.

it's what i said, 40 members less than half of the bonanno's in new york

As someone who knows this a little better than most, I can assure you there are more than 40 members of the Calabrian Ndrangheta in southern Ontario. You are all free to believe whatever you wish or listen and read any "reporter" or "journalist" you like. But common sense would dictate...who the hell would Italian authorities know how many Ndrangheta members there are in southern Ontario? If any of you know people in southern Ontario law enforcement, please ask them if there are 40 mobsters in the entire region.

I hear of stories of NYC mobsters getting caught trying to shake down hot dog carts and adult video stores......tell me the last time you ever heard of a Toronto or Montreal getting caught for this sort of thing. For God's sake there are Ndrangheta controlled companies involved in construction in Ontario that gets 10's of millions a year in gov't contracts. It's not a "40 man" operation in Ontario.

Nobody said that the D'Amico's from Granby were behind it, although they could be part of the coalition. The last thing I read about them is that they were in hiding themselves somewhere in the Caribbean.

Well, we really don't hear much regarding Italian OC in Toronto. Which sort of makes one question the assertion made by some here about armies of local 'Ndrangheta guys walking around. As I posted on the other forum, people bought into that "Sixth Family" stuff about the Rizzutos in Montreal. And now people are making the same claims about the Calabrians in Toronto. Even though there's not much to base it on.

If you want to turn this into a pissing contest, maybe you should do some more research on the NY mob. It's not just hot dog carts. For example, back in 2005 it was reported that mob-linked companies had received $1.2 billion on over 100 public contracts between 1995 and 2005.

If we go on demonstrable evidence alone, and not on pure assumptions or claims of exclusive insight based on where somebody lives, there is a bigger mob presence in the NY metro area than in Montreal and Toronto combined.

While I agree that there is a bigger mob presence in NYC than in TO I think your formula of number of indictments = number of mobsters is flawed. The Greater Toronto area has a population of nearly 6 million an Italian is the #2 spoken second language. Because Canadian police have common sense and allocate more resources to go after street gangs and crack dealers who pose a greater danger to the average civilian than the mob, certainly doesn't mean there is a lack of OC here. Nevertheless I highly doubt there are even half as many mobster in the GTA as there are in NYC.

it's what i said, 40 members less than half of the bonanno's in new york

I guess it depends on what your definition of "lack" is. I'm not saying there is no Italian OC in Toronto. I'm saying that I see little evidence to support it being on the scale that some claim it is. Especially when they start in with that nonsense about the "balance of power" now being in Canada.

You know what's funny? That whole line of thinking more or less started out with the book The Sixth Family: The Collapse of the New York Mafia and the Rise of Vito Rizzuto.

I guess it depends on what your definition of "lack" is. I'm not saying there is no Italian OC in Toronto. I'm saying that I see little evidence to support it being on the scale that some claim it is. Especially when they start in with that nonsense about the "balance of power" now being in Canada.

You know what's funny? That whole line of thinking more or less started out with the book The Sixth Family: The Collapse of the New York Mafia and the Rise of Vito Rizzuto.

Fast forward 5 years from when that book was written and we see another example of how authors often exaggerate their topic. The NY Mafia hadn't exactly "collapsed" and the Rizzutos weren't as omnipotent as some had thought.

But now the problem is some are making the same claims about the Calabrians in Toronto.

I see what you mean and I while every author likes to hype up their subject, Lamothe and Humphries were on a whole new level when it came to the Rizzuto's. Trying to get the reader to believe that Vito was some untouchable Don and had a say in every drug deal/extortion/murder that occurred. An they went on and on about Vito's Sicilian connections like no other member of LCN have ties to Sicily.

Any pictures of him? And any new unknown pictures of Sal the Ironworker? There seems only 2 photos of him, one mugshot and other his dead.

Any pictures of him? And any new unknown pictures of Sal the Ironworker? There seems only 2 photos of him, one mugshot and other his dead.

'Ndrangheta members are known to operate different than the average mobster and they are usually more low-key.

They are also generally more involved in legitimate businesses. So the number of indictments hypothesis doesn't necessarily have to correspond for them too.

I'm also one of those who believes that naming 40 members by Italian authorities doesn't have to mean that there couldn't be more who weren't named. But it does strongly indicate, like you said, that there aren't hundreds of them operating in Toronto like some want to believe. So I think the number would be closer to 50, but that doesn't include "associates".

You should definitely read Mafia Inc.

I do think the Rizzutos were a powerhouse because of their impressive network and I think they could have been at one point more powerful than some of the medium-sized American families.

Ah ha. That's really the issue here. How we define what we call "the Rizzutos." It seems that many have made the mistake of equating all of organized crime in Montreal with "The Rizzutos." Or thinking that everything, at least from an Italian OC perspective, falls under that umbrella there.

Technically speaking, I don't know if it's really accurate to call it the "Rizzuto crime family." Once again, Salvatore Vitale testified that there were about 20 made guys up in Montreal, including Nick and Vito Rizzuto, who were made members of the Bonanno family. And, before he was killed, Sciascia was the captain of the Montreal crew. Vito was a soldier. My understanding is most of these guys descended from Cattolica Eraclea and Siculiana. They were the core of what you call Rizzuto's network.

Now, as far as this larger network, which eventually could involve just about all of organized crime in Montreal and elsewhere in Canada, here's what Lamothe said over on the Real Deal a few years back -

"The Rizzuto Criminal Organization is made up of various individuals and groups, including LCN, 'ndrangheta clans, and small family groupings of perhaps a father and two sons who have proven themselves over time in the underworld -- the father is made and the sons aren't. The Associates are everybody: white collar crooks, telemarketers, bikers, Natives, Chinese, Iranians. So it seems there are three "levels". Born/blood Sicilians loyal to the clan; criminal organizations and groups loyal to the clan but have their own interests and other loyalties -- such as 'ndrangheta -- and Associates. As long as the Rizzuto Family is strong that's where the power will flow from; if another powerful -- likely Sicilian based from Western Sicily -- emerges from the problems of the Rizzutos, then that layer will be drawn to them; the Associates are without loyalty and will go to whoever can protect them and allow them to make money successfully."


Here's another way he described it on another forum before that -

Explaining the makeup and structure of the Rizzuto organization is even more complicated. There's no pyramid of boss, underboss, captains, soldiers. The simplest way to figure it out is to draw circle the size of a dime on a piece of paper. That's the core of the Rizzutos -- essentially think of it as a cult of families all related by blood and marriage. Within the hard core centre are the Rizzutos, the Mannos, more recently the Ragusas, the Rendas, etc.Now make other circles, smaller, orbiting the main circle. These are other Sicilian or Calabrese clans or groups. Among the little orbiting circles are some triangles: these are the pyramids, more traditional groups that follow the American pyramid style. Scattered well away from the main group and the more closely associated smallest circles and triangles are various groups: bikers, Natives, Chinese, lawyers and accountants and stock brokers. These stretch across the country.


This has what has led to people more or less equating the Rizzutos or a "Sixth Family" with the larger organized crime scene in Canada as a whole. And then making inaccurate comparisons between it and specific LCN families in the U.S. While a lot of good information is provided in both books, that's what the Sixth Family was really doing: saying the Rizzutos had become stronger than the entire Bonanno family when it was really putting up most of the Montreal underworld to the Bonanno family.

Ah ha. That's really the issue here. How we define what we call "the Rizzutos." It seems that many have made the mistake of equating all of organized crime in Montreal with "The Rizzutos." Or thinking that everything, at least from an Italian OC perspective, falls under that umbrella there.

Technically speaking, I don't know if it's really accurate to call it the "Rizzuto crime family." Once again, Salvatore Vitale testified that there were about 20 made guys up in Montreal, including Nick and Vito Rizzuto, who were made members of the Bonanno family. And, before he was killed, Sciascia was the captain of the Montreal crew. Vito was a soldier. My understanding is most of these guys descended from Cattolica Eraclea and Siculiana. They were the core of what you call Rizzuto's network.

Now, as far as this larger network, which eventually could involve just about all of organized crime in Montreal and elsewhere in Canada, here's what Lamothe said over on the Real Deal a few years back -

"The Rizzuto Criminal Organization is made up of various individuals and groups, including LCN, 'ndrangheta clans, and small family groupings of perhaps a father and two sons who have proven themselves over time in the underworld -- the father is made and the sons aren't. The Associates are everybody: white collar crooks, telemarketers, bikers, Natives, Chinese, Iranians. So it seems there are three "levels". Born/blood Sicilians loyal to the clan; criminal organizations and groups loyal to the clan but have their own interests and other loyalties -- such as 'ndrangheta -- and Associates. As long as the Rizzuto Family is strong that's where the power will flow from; if another powerful -- likely Sicilian based from Western Sicily -- emerges from the problems of the Rizzutos, then that layer will be drawn to them; the Associates are without loyalty and will go to whoever can protect them and allow them to make money successfully."


Here's another way he described it on another forum before that -

Explaining the makeup and structure of the Rizzuto organization is even more complicated. There's no pyramid of boss, underboss, captains, soldiers. The simplest way to figure it out is to draw circle the size of a dime on a piece of paper. That's the core of the Rizzutos -- essentially think of it as a cult of families all related by blood and marriage. Within the hard core centre are the Rizzutos, the Mannos, more recently the Ragusas, the Rendas, etc.Now make other circles, smaller, orbiting the main circle. These are other Sicilian or Calabrese clans or groups. Among the little orbiting circles are some triangles: these are the pyramids, more traditional groups that follow the American pyramid style. Scattered well away from the main group and the more closely associated smallest circles and triangles are various groups: bikers, Natives, Chinese, lawyers and accountants and stock brokers. These stretch across the country.


This has what has led to people more or less equating the Rizzutos or a "Sixth Family" with the larger organized crime scene in Canada as a whole. And then making inaccurate comparisons between it and specific LCN families in the U.S. While a lot of good information is provided in both books, that's what the Sixth Family was really doing: saying the Rizzutos had become stronger than the entire Bonanno family when it was really putting up most of the Montreal underworld to the Bonanno family.

Excellent post and being from Montreal, I think it accurately portrays the situation. The example given about the circles is what describes the situation best if you ask me and what you're seeing in Montreal lately is the elimination of the inner core by the outer core, more notably rival Sicilians and Calabrians not belonging to the Rendas-Manno-Rizzuto families.

I see it this way,

First tier: Rizzuto, Renda, Cammalleri, Manno, Ragusa etc..
Second tier: Arcuri, Toronto Sicilians, Hamilton, Siderno Group
Third Tier: Italian-Canadian criminals like Piccirilli, D'Amico, Di Maulo, Gallo, Mucci

and then you have the others around like bikers, asians, arabs, blacks etc.....

The people capable of replacing the Rizzuto's are usually the second tier which is what were seeing now.