Some may disagree on the forum ive posted this in, but I wanted to concentrate on the implications of Suge Knights racketeering crimes & involvement in the death of Tupac, & the alleged FBI policy of causing dissent within the "gangsta rap" community which may have fired Tupac's rage against Biggie in the last years of his life.

Having recently re-watched the documentary, as well as being struck once again at the tragedy-drama of the East/West "rivalry" & how young & vibrant both rappers once were, I feel again a sense of outrage at how blase' & quick to wrap up their respective homicide investigations were. Both men were definitely not saints, but showed huge potential tragically cut short.

As so many times before, I have more questions then answers. There is evidence that seems to point towards Suge Knight orchestrating Tupacs murder through a cabal of corrupt LAPD officers moonlighting as security for Death Row Records, then organised the murder of Christopher Wallace to shift suspicion away from himself, as if the deaths were due to the fued between them rather then Knights fear of having to pay up millions owed to Tupac. For a guy dumb enough to make easily disproven claims like having a bullet left in his head from the shooting, he certainly seems to have pulled off quite a feat. Is this the general consensus?

In many senses, Suge Knight definitely had the capability, being described as involved in drug trafficking & various oactivities, like supposedly coercing Vanilla Ice into handing over lucrative royalties to "ice Ice Baby" & motive, having already lost Dr Dre from his label & being on the verge of losing Tupac. Still, everything seems to have wrapped up very nicely for him if he was indeed the perp.

Also, i know the idea of the FBI keeping track of the activities of musicians considered subversive is nothing new, Id be amazed to learn they continued this practice well into the 90's though. Especially as they are alleged to have been responsible for fueling Tupacs rage by feeding him rumours of Biggie Smalls' involvement in his shooting, through "undercover agents" in prison. This would, of course, play straight into Knights plan, but its a pretty out-there theory.

But then I read about an FBI release this year that links Biggie Smalls to the Genovese Family, claiming there was connections between them & they suspected mob involvement in his death! According to the documents, it was for this reason the LAPD had Wallace under surveillance. Also, supposedly the bullets used in the murder were an armor piercing type not available to civilians, feeding into the theories of involvement by corrupt elements of the LAPD.

This makes my head spin. Of course Im going to continue my own research, but any thoughts would be appreciated.

Sorry for the long post.

There are a lot of theories floating around in these two cases. Obviously they can't all be true. There is nothing wrong with asking questions, but as someone who has done extensive research on the material that is out there, I find it really sad when I see people buy into theories where the facts have obviously been twisted. I am not against conspiracy theories, but if you are going to make a case for a conspiracy theory, then you need to have the facts in line with what you are presenting.

One of the biggest misconceptions about the Tupac case concerns Suge Knight's head injury. There seem to be a lot of people out there who think Suge was cut by a piece of flying glass. First of all, the glass in this vehicle was PVB Laminated Glass which is a safety glass that is designed to minimize the risk of injury and the chances of being cut by this type of glass are extremely low. Cathy Scott is perhaps the most thorough researcher who has investigated this case and she personally met with the doctors who treated Suge Knight. They did indeed remove bullet fragments from the lower part of Suge's cranium. The occipital bone to be exact. If you want the names of these doctors, I suggest you contact Cathy Scott. She is more than approachable. Even Frank Alexander wrote in his book Got Your Back that blood was "squirting from his head" and said and I quote "Suge is looking up at me and I could see the bleeding getting worse" (page 160). He also talked about seeing Suge in tears when they got the news of Tupac's death. There were many other witnesses who saw Suge grieving Tupac and being angry at what happened, because let's not forget, someone tried to kill him as well. His behavior was certainly not consistent with what we know about people who are guilty of murder.

Another thing to remember is that they recovered bullets from the dashboard, not just from the passenger side, but from the driver's side as well. Now if you were Suge Knight and you wanted Tupac Shakur dead, would you want the shooters to shoot across the car? Because that is what happened here. It is simply ridiculous. I do understand why people have a hard time buying Suge's version of events, simply because of all the bullshit he has said in the past. He has contradicted himself many times and proven himself to be a bold faced liar several times over. When you lie and manipulate as much as Suge did, then there will come a time when people won't believe anything you have to say. Even if it's the truth. I am certainly no fan of this guy, but I don't believe he had anything to do with the murder of Tupac. The LAPD and the FBI wanted Suge Knight bad and if he truly was responsible for this, he would have been arrested. They just did not believe he was responsible for this.

Another misconception people have about this case is the story about Tupac wanting to leave the record company. There is no evidence that suggests so. In fact, it's the exact opposite. On September 4, three days before the shooting, Tupac was in New York at the MTV Video Music Awards where he talked to the media about starting Death Row East and seemed very excited about it. Even said "Do you believe in God? If you believe in God, then believe in Death Row East" and Tupac was no atheist. Matter of fact, here it is. Now, does this sound like somebody who is planning to leave Death Row? Even Michael Moore, that idiotic bodyguard who claimed he heard "we got 'em" in the presence of Reggie Wright, said he witnessed Tupac and Suge get into a heated argument in New York over Snoop's comment to the media about wanting to make music with Biggie. According to Moore, Tupac was angry because he felt Snoop was not being loyal to Death Row. In one of his very last interviews, Tupac was asked where he'd see himself in five years and he said and I am quoting directly from the magainze: "I see myself having a job at Death Row". Tupac was known to have arguments with Suge and almost everybody he was close with. In fact, Shock G of Digital Underground said they used to fight all the time. Tupac having arguments with Suge or trying to get his hands on the masters does not mean he was leaving the record company. This is all based on assumption. It's a baseless statement. A lot of people think the birth of Makaveli Records was a sign he was going to leave, but Makaveli Records was going to be distributed through Death Row. Tupac even said it himself. You talk to any of the Outlaws and they'll tell you the same thing.

The evidence does nothing but point away from Suge Knight. I'd love to believe that disgruntled police officer, but if he doesn't have any evidence then I can understand why he was kicked off the force. As far as Tupac's bodyguards go, they seem to be more interested in making money than solving Tupac's murder. In fact, I am willing to bet that even they don't believe Suge or Reggie Wright had anything to do with this. It's amazing how far you can go with a few assumptions. It's also important to note that Frank Alexander's story has changed drastically since he wrote his book. In the book, he even dedicated a whole chapter to Suge and Death Row, where he expressed love and support for Suge Knight. Due to his original story about the case, Frank has major credibility problems.

I don't know for sure who killed Tupac, but I certainly suspect Orlando "Baby Lane" Anderson, the man Tupac assaulted two hours before the shooting. Conspiracy theorists believe he was planted there, but the Lakewood mall incident happened in April of '96. For those who don't know, that's the incident where Anderson snatched that Death Row chain from Travon Lane's neck. Travon Lane being one of Suge's Mob Piru friends and the guy who pointed Anderson out at the casino on that fateful night of September 7, 1996. Five months had gone by. Everyone knew the Lakewood mall incident was a serious matter. Even Frank Alexander remembered it. The reason why it can't be ignored is because there was a $10,000 bounty on the Death Row chains. So this was a major thing.

Investigators also found no connection between Suge Knight, a Mob Piru and Orlando Anderson, a South Side Crip. The only interesting connection Anderson had was to the late Eric "Eazy-E" Wright, one of the founding members of NWA and a man who had his own beef with Suge Knight. A beef that had a lot to do with the departure of Dr. Dre from Wright's record label. But Wright was also a Compton Crip and openly associated with Crips, particularly the South Side Compton Crips. He had grown up around the corner from them and was close to the family of Orlando Anderson. Wright's best friend happened to be Mark "Big Man" Rucker, a well known member of the gang, who was employed by Wright for many years. Eazy even gave record deals to some of the South Side Crips. The late Dj Train being among them. Eazy-E, who like Dj Train, died before Tupac, was a well known Compton drug dealer way before he made his mark on the music industry and continues to be revered by his old friends on the South Side. To say Orlando Anderson was planted by a rival gang member is a big stretch and the fact that he didn't have a ticket to the fight doesn't mean anything. Most people go to Vegas to party on fight nights. They tend to have limited interest in the fights themselves.

Tupac Shakur was killed with a 40mm Glock. Orlando Anderson had denied owning such a gun, but when his home was raided in October of '96, they found a 40mm Glock. Yeah! Also, before it was ever disclosed to the public that Tupac had been killed with a 40mm Glock, one of the informants the Compton Police Department had, told them he had seen Orlando Anderson carrying a 40mm Glock around the time of the murder. By the way, these informants that fingered Anderson were South Side Compton Crips. The very same gang Orlando Anderson belonged to. Sadly, due to the problems the Compton PD was having with the Las Vegas PD, the investigation screeched to a halt. Then in 1998, Orlando Anderson was murdered. That is essentially what happened with this case and the reason why I believe this case will never be solved.

The Biggie Smalls case is another matter, but I'll discuss it later.

I added a few things in there.

After 14 Years, FBI Releases Details Surrounding Notorious B.I.G's Death
By Christy Choi
April 8, 2011


Biggie fans may finally get their chance to learn what happened to the legendary rapper 14 years after his death. The FBI recently released hundreds of pages of records (heavily redacted) of their investigation into the 1997 slaying.

While who killed Biggie still remains a mystery, the public does get an insight into the workings of the two-year FBI investigation and the details surrounding the life and deaths of two of rap's biggest megastars.

For those in need of a refresher: On March 9, 1997, Biggie, real name Christopher Wallace, was gunned down as he was leaving a music industry party in Los Angeles. His death followed the fatal shooting of rival Tupac Shakur 6 months earlier in Las Vegas.

At the time, rumors swirled of a rap-rivalry gone wrong, with some speculating Biggie's death was an act of revenge for Tupac's killing. Some believed people in Biggie's posse were responsible for Tupac's murder. Others thought it went even further and that Biggie and Tupac were casualties of a bigger conflict between their record labels. The two rappers had been friends until Tupac's downward spiral into a life of violence made Biggie distance himself. Later, as Tupac landed in prison, Biggie's career took off.

There was also talk of police corruption and gang violence related to the larger than life characters, and the FBI became involved, starting a review of public corruption and civil rights violations. That's the gist of it. For more details, check out TIME's coverage from way back when.

So what do the files from this investigation reveal?

* The FBI was trying to link the killing of Tupac and Biggie from the start. The files include details of their relationship, the evolution from friends to rivals and records of minor skirmishes and fatal shootings. They found individuals who were present at the death of both rappers.

* Biggie was shot with rare Gecko 9mm ammunition, made only in Europe and sold only in select California and New Jersey stores. The FBI tried to find other crimes committed using the same ammo, hoping to find a connection, but no dice.

* They suspected police involvement. Sources wouldn't talk to LAPD investigators about Wallace's death because they thought there was internal corruption at the force. Though not proof of their involvement, a number of officers on duty at the party Biggie was leaving at the time of his death were also employed by rival record label Death Row Records as security officers. Which is, incidentally, a violation of LAPD policy.

* Biggie had connections with the Genovese crime family in New York. FBI theorize the family could have photo or video evidence of his shooting, but have no proof such a thing exists.

* Biggie had some full pockets the night he died. The FBI list: a Georgia driver's license, a pen, 0.91 grams of marijuana, an asthma inhaler, and three condoms among his possessions.

What else does Biggie's case bring to light? The fact that the FBI makes some of their documents publicly available. For more on cases frequently requested from the FBI, (and released), check out The Vault. On it are the likes of Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden and there's even a section for “unexplained phenomena.” (via AP, Los Angeles Times)

http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/04/08/afte...s-b-i-gs-death/

Here's the recently released FBI files on the case (Heavily redacted) -

http://vault.fbi.gov/Christopher%20%28Biggie%20Smalls%29%20Wallace%20/

Awesome. Thanks Vinny. You've made some great points & you obviously know your shit when it comes to these two.

After I typed my post, I was thinking of the incongruity of Knight arranging the murder to happen while he was in the car with Tupac, I maybe should have edited, but Im a lazy, lazy man. As I said, it definitely seems like everything just falls too neatly into place, & I suppose I have come off sounding really naive after watching that British film-makers documentary again years later. In all honesty, it is pretty hard to believe that Knight some how managed to pull of such a machiavellian coup & the truth is most probably far more squalidly banal then such conspiracy theories.

Seriously, thanks dude. Once again, Ive got like, a virtual plethora of new leads & avenues of research. Love this site.

Super keen to hear your thoughts on the Wallace murder too.

I started my first reply this morning, but had to start work so left it open & finished it like 8 hours later; hence i missed the other posts.


Er. What do you mean? Are you like, taking the piss a little bit?




The exact document I was referring to. Many thanks Ivyleague. Makes for very interesting reading.

Oops, no wait, I just re-read your post. You actually just "added a few things"
I get it. More good points.

I thought you might have been making a statement on "not believing all you read/hear". But you do make valid points regarding these two cases, & seem ,like so many us are, particularly drawn to the murders of the two rappers.

how did biggie have connections with the Genovese

So far the file only states, on the 18th page, that "...Biggie & his entourage had connections to the Genovese Crime Family" without really explaining much more. The way the earlier part of the sentence has been redacted implies it was information furnished by a confidential informant.

What is made clear in the reports is; when the information has been furnished by various informants (which is what it is, mostly uncorroborated & theory/conjecture), but also when & what the FBI decided to pursue & backed up through their own investiagtions.

In some cases the redactions are relatively easy to fill in armed with the facts, such as one, for example, reading "______________ found to have a "shrine" to Tupac in his garage" with the redacted sections obviously referring to LAPD Officer David Mack, or one that reads something like "________ who _________ cocaine", which, considering the context, is less likely to be "so & so who campaigned against the use of cocaine" then "so & so who used/sold cocaine. & Im reasonably confidant on where the redacted statements refer to either Sean Coombs or Suge Knight, also by the context & established facts.

Its takes me some time to wade through these files. Im pretty busy & can only do so much at a time, & its a pretty lengthy. There could well be more further in.

Went through a few pages and it gave me a headache almost immediately. They don't appear to have many reliable informants there. It's a lot of he said, she said bullshit. I have no idea if David Mack or Rafael Perez are responsible for the murder of Biggie Smalls. I have yet to see any evidence that I know for a fact is reliable and Nick Broomfield certainly didn't convince me. However, David Mack and Rafael Perez are definitely the type of people you would want to investigate. Mack used to post at this hip-hop forum I frequented back in the day and the guy always left me with a bad feeling. It may be too easy to blame him for this. I have my theories on the murder, but first I would like to post this interview with Cathy Scott where she discusses the murder of Tupac. You will definitely appreciate this Mickey. Just remember, it's five parts.

I also recommend this



and this

Great stuff Vinny, definitely appreciated. Scott sounds a very knowledgable woman.

I admit I once stood amongst his accusers, but regardless of any of his other crimes I no longer believe Suge Knight had a part in the shooting death of Tupac that night, in fact its pretty obvious he did not.

Im glad I was put on to Ms Scotts work on the case sooner rather then later. She definitely knows the case well.

It very much seems, as Officer Brennan put it, like a strictly gang related conflict.

Compton is an interesting place. I don't know how many times it has ranked number one on the murder rate in Los Angeles county. In 2005, it had the highest murder rate of all the cities in America. We're talking 67.1 murders (rate per 100,000 population). The national rate that year was 5.6 murders. I know a lot of these murders in Compton had to do with the South Side Crips. They are the largest Crip set in Compton and have been described as a mini army by some observers. The most troubling part is that the general public does not have any idea or simply doesn't care what is going on over there. These kids live and die in dog years. They have no one to look up to and no one to guide them. They are stuck in a cycle of violence. A cycle that cannot be broken unless we the people start doing what is necessary to build the community. These kids are not animals.

One of the most active sets in Compton is the Neighbor Hood Compton Crips. They are located on the East Side South of Compton and have been known to work closely with the South Side Crips.


This is actually Eazy-E's son. He is a member of the NHCC. A lot of the people mentioned in this song were victims of gang violence. Most of them belonging to the East Side of Compton.

Man, watching this video brings tears to my eyes. He was truly the voice of the people that nobody care for.

I know what you mean Vinny. He was no saint & made his share of mistakes, but I truly believe he was at heart a good person who did care very much about the youth of his nation.

Biggie always had that mad flow, but Tupac was a true poet. When I read The Rose That Grew From Concrete & other poems of his Im always struck by the heart, the depth of emotion he showed even while so young. This man had so much potential, which even at his creative nadir had not yet (I believe) peaked.

I loved his turn in Gridlock'd, so did the critics. Knowing he had such interests in acting & may have gone on to play so many more roles is but one of the reasons its so sad to have seen his life cut short.

Like mentioned in the Scott interview, I think some of the problems I (& others) had with accepting his death was the idea that someone like Tupac could be murdered by someone like Baby Lane Anderson over something so petty. Its easier, & in a twisted way almost more comforting to think it was the result of some sort of conspiracy, that if he had to die it was because there was some dark & mysterious plot against him. I think maybe it gives more substance(perhaps the wrong word?) to his death & somehow easier to accept.

Tupac's music was the soundtrack to my last primary & first high school years. His was the first music I chose for myself, not what my parents listened to or what I was raised on, but the first music I myself discovered & loved & my entrance into hip hop as a genre..

The first time I heard a swear-word in a song was "Hit Em Up", I remember having my mind blown realising people could actually do that. I played Dear Mama to my mother trying to apologise to her for stupidly deciding to run away from home at 13 (not the first or last time, but the longest at 10 days. I was, actually, a little shit of a child)

Me Against The World is one of those albums you can just put on & let play the whole way through. Listening to songs like Changes & I Wonder If Heaven Got A Ghetto can really be heart wrenching.

I wonder if perhaps the argument could be made that indirectly Knight contributed to the final outcome by having involved Tupac deeper into the Mob Piru Blood/South Side Compton Crip fued & encouraging the escalation of it.

Of course Tupac ultimately made his own decision.

Theres a tragically apt little cartoon in the Cathy Scott interview of two kids watching one g' kill another, all wearing "Dont Snitch" shirts. "Now be a good little ho'" the murderous gangbanger tells the children, a billboard in the background proclaiming Rap Your Life Away! Apparently it was controversial when it was first printed in 07, & I can see why. Its pretty full on.

Me Against The World was the first Tupac album I ever bought and it was this album that turned me on to Tupac. I was 14 when it came out and going through a lot of things at home and in school. It is truly one of the the best hip-hop albums I've ever heard, if not the best. It got me through a lot and I can thank Tupac for that. Every song on that album touched me in some way and I often let it roll from start to finish without any interruption. I really don't know any other album that I can do that with. Not even with Thriller.

I like all music, but I've always been a huge hip-hop fan. Ever since I bought Public Enemy's Fear Of A Black Planet by mistake when I was 10-years-old, I've been bumping this music almost every day. Then I became a huge Ice-T fan. NWA followed, Ice Cube, Dr. Dre, Snoop, Bone Thugs. It was a glorious time in music.

But back to Tupac. He was definitely a very promising actor and could've gone very far there as well. I tend to get a little emotional when I see him in Gridlock'd or Poetic Justice. It's just terrible to know that this man is gone. Yeah, I was definitely a big fan, but what I really liked about Tupac was how human he was. He was a flawed man who was at war with himself. Fighting all these demons and he couldn't win. Not that I think any of us can win. I know my generation won't lol.

"It's a gangsta party, so Bad Boy gettin' worried" - 2pac
[i][/i]

Suge was a terrible influence on Tupac. A good example of that occurred shortly before his death when he got himself a Mob Piru tattoo. Yeah, that's how fucked up Tupac was getting. Tupac wasn't from Compton, but Suge was in his ear non stop, filling his head with bullshit. This is the last guy he needed to be around, but it was ultimately his decision and he paid with his life. You know the first thing Tupac said to Orlando Anderson before he socked him was "you from the south?". That's typical gang talk. He didn't even mention that chain. I guess he wanted to show Suge what he was made of.