Where? Are? You? From?

It is all right to have unpopular opinions, but when your opinions reek of hatred and disrespect for an entire city then you're gonna have a few problems. I think you may need to rethink this opinion of yours. New York City has many things. Good and bad and everything in between, but the way you generalize it is extremely disrespectful for the people who live there and people like myself who enjoy visiting the city.

Now..WHERE ARE YOU FROM???

New York is a great city, it has everything for everyone. I've been there when I was seven years old (actually turned 7 in the U.S.) and I really want to come back in the near future! (if possible).

Let us know, Sonny. We'd love to have you .

You sure about that?

Yeah. I've always heard that Dutch boys were a hoot to drink with .

Philadelphia.

The decline of the mafia and the turning of NYC into sterile and safe place go hand in hand. Long gone are the days tight neighborhoods and people knew each other for generations. Now the neighborhoods are mostly full of what I call tourist, the recent college graduate from Iowa who wants to spend a few years living in the "hood," or the fresh off the boat immigrant whose sole purpose is to make enough money to build a house back home, or move off to a better area. That is why there can't really be anymore Westies or much of mafia in NYC. Who are they going to shake down or take bets from? Suzie Jones from Lincoln, Saif from Chittagong? I'd be willing to bet there are many neighborhoods in NYC these days where people hardly know their neighbors. There was a concerted to push out the middle/working class of NYC, so it could become a playground for yuppies, and the fresh off the boat immigrants are there to provide the cheap labor for them.

Probably the peasant ones. I'm from the suburbs.

See, I'm ignorant. I thought the Netherlands were nothing but suburbs .

I won't blame you. This is probably what the Netherlands will be in 50 years.

Sonny. Is it true that you guys have a Heineken museum? The shit I'd do to get in shouldn't even be repeated in an interrogation room.

Interesting theory. But if you follow mob cases in New York, even over the last decade or so, there is still A LOT of gambling and shakedowns going on.

The whole idea of the break up of the old Italian neighborhood, while true, hasn't exactly effected the NY Mafia in all the ways people have assumed.

Apparantly.

http://www.amsterdam.info/nl/musea/heineken-experience/

But I think it's not that difficult for an American to get in though and I will tell you how.

First, buy a plane ticket, then come to the Netherlands (don't confuse it with Jerusalem or Belgium) then go to Amsterdam. When at the museum, buy a ticket and you're allowed in.

We don't know how big these gambling cases were though. The FBI is known to exaggerate the size of gambling operations. A few years ago the Philly mob had a gambling operation at the Borgata that was busted, the FBI claimed it was a billion dollar operation! It probably wasn't one-tenth that.

You're talking about some gambling busts up in New York. The highest estimate for the Philly/Borgata gambling bust was about $60 million taken in bets over a 20 month period.

Even if they claimed it was a 60 million dollar gambling ring, they are still exaggerating badly. The bust in New York could be of a bookie with 10 customers betting for all we know. There is no doubt in my mind the way NYC has changed over the last 20 years has hurt the mafia. There are not as many people to take bets, not as many potential extortion targets. The NYPD shut down all the peep shows and porn shops that were lucrative for the mafia. The mafia no longer has a large pool of potential members to recruit from, and these recruits were much less likely to grow up around it like guys in the past.

Gerry you have a point and I always kind of thought the same thing about NY. But as I do more research on the 5 families...they seem to always have a new racket to replace money they may be losing on older rackets that are more neighborhood oriented. But lets not go crazy..gambling will always be the stronghold for the mafia no matter if its legalized or not, or the landscape has changed or not. And NY definitely doesn't have the neighborhoods like it use to but there are still some areas that are Italian american neighborhoods...they just aren't in the heart of the city/borough anymore. But as for recruits, don't you think the trend now is to stay closer to home, like family members and close friends who have been around it already? I feel like you see that more often then not. There has to be a close connection already and not really recruiting outside of that. You don't really see "recruiting" per se. That's why i evenutally see LCN in America get smaller. We have already seen it thoughout the country but to your point, there isn't as many guys who want to be a mobster anymore or are around it as much as before because if they don't have a family member or friend, they wouldn't really see the action. I think Philly will be detroit in 15-20 years, Chicago will be Philly, and so on in terms of size. Even NY will get smaller and more close knit eventually. Just my opinion. But I do think this will help in some ways to stablilize the mob. They seem to be having trouble getting Uncle Joe in Philly, and he has become a more quiet, small close knit family.

There is no doubt that gambling still exist, and it is a big money maker, I just don't think it nearly as big as it used to be. The casual neighborhood bettors aren't there like they used to be. A lot of them moved out the neighborhood, and took on houses that cost more, and the overall cost of living has increased, so they no longer have the disposable income to bet like they used to. I'm 30, and I've seen how things have changed over my life time, in the 90's, just about everyone I know bet atleast on football games, now less then half do. I think the mafia has to stay closer to home now out of necessity, because you don't have the areas where guys grew up together from kids, or their fathers and grand fathers grew up together, those kind of bonds don't exist as much anymore. I know the Bonanno's under Joe Massino were keen on fathers recruiting their sons, and keeping things in the family. I know I wouldn't want to recruit a guy I met later in life, because you really don't know what he's been life throughout his life, like I would a guy i grew up with.

I might have been overly harsh on NYC, but when I spent time there last summer, and not just in Manhattan, it struck me how much the place has changed. It was chalk full of white yuppies, Chinese, Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Arab types (they didn't appear happy or personable either), they didn't represent the NYC I grew up thinking existed. It wasn't just the lack of Italian Americans either, those old black and Irish American neighborhoods are quickly coming a thing of the past too. NYC isn't going to be producing the next Jimmy Burke anytime soon.

Well that's a fair point, but a lot of that has to with the fact that there aren't really many Italians immigrating here anymore. The overwhelming majority of Italian families in the US came here between 1880 and 1920. General attrition has thinned the bloodline and these neighborhoods can't possibly stay Italian anymore. The Italians, Irish, European Jews, et al. have assimilated into mainstream American society. The "New Immigrants" are the ones that you just mentioned (Chinese, Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Arab types).

For the record: Do we really need another Jimmy Burke? The guy was a psycho killer .

Gerry I am 31...and we are both from Philly. And you could say the same thing about Philly. Yes we are still very neighborhood oriented but many of the neighborhoods that were once italian american are now other ethnic neighborhoods. But there are still italian strongholds and there still in NY. MY buddy lives in Yonkers and his cousin the Bronx and they live in italian american neighborhoods. But I think you are correct, bloodlines thinned and it will never be how it once was.

I think we essentially agree on gambling. Yes it may have decreased somewhat but they will always find a way to use gambling as there main operation whether a neighborhood bookie, internet, etc.

You say they are exaggerating like it's an established fact. Once again, that $60 million figure is the total amount of money wagered in bets over a 2 1/2 year period. That's not the amount of profit the operation made. If we were to average that out, that comes to about $24 million in bets wagered a year. Or about $2 million a month. Assuming the standard 10% profit in your typical bookmaking operation, you're looking at a profit of about $6 million over the 2 1/2 years. Very believable in my opinion.



Many things about both New York City and the Mafia have changed over the past few decades. That's certainly true. But how closely do you follow cases involving the mob there? I could show you example after example of multimillion dollar mob-related gambling cases over that past decade. I could also show you plenty of examples of the mob extorting various types of businesses in New York over the past decade; including restaurants, delicatessans, bakeries, nightclubs, adult businesses like strip clubs and porn shops, vending machine distributors, lunch truck vendors, garages and scrap yards, bus companies, as well as companies in the waterfront, construction, trucking, and carting industries.




Well, for the record, it was the Giuliani administration that changed Times Square and removed all the sex businesses. But the trade was becoming somewhat passe for the mob by that time anyway and the mob actually made quite a bit of money from the sale of the real estate. The pool of recruits has certainly declined in New York, in terms of both quality and quantity, but there is evidently still enough of one to keep the size of the families stable. They are still able to replace guys that have died.

In many ways, yes.

The numbers racket was largely swallowed up by the legal state lotto. The mob is still involved in it but to a much lesser degree.

The old backroom casinos have become largely passe, since you have Atlantic City, Indian casinos, etc. Now the mob is basically left with running high-stakes card games.

There are still video poker machines, though I'm not sure they are the business they once were. Let alone compared to the old illegal slot machines a half century ago.

The one exception is sports betting. That's bigger than ever and one area where the mob has been able to retain a large amount of control. And the invention of the internet has only helped them in that respect.

In a lot of ways, for the remaining mob families both individually and collectively, sports betting is their bread and butter.

Just a little footnote on illegal gambling in NYC:

Most bookies haven't taken horse bets here in almost forty years (since OTB opened). OTB finally went belly up a few months ago, and it's my understanding that a lot of the old-time barroom type bookmakers are pretty happy to be back in business. OTB's loss has been their gain. Still, horse racing seems to be a dying sport. A shame, really. I love the track .

^ that makes sense. I like the track too. I try to make it out to the 'big A' once or twice a year. Racing seems like it's one more generation shift from completely dying though. unless they grew up with it no one under the age of 40 could care less haha. maybe the "racino" will bring back interest (doubt it)


as far as new york not 'being what it was' or whatever... in the grand scheme of things new york has been constantly changing at a rapid rate and it always will be. its a city that's never really belonged to anybody no matter how deep your roots run here. as far as the ethnic enclaves that's a thing in the past. thank capitalism, striving, and the suburbs for that. you think families wanted to stay in a 6 story walkup on Elizabeth Street forever? enough money in the bank and it's off to a place with a back yard. can't blame them. even though it might be realtively 'white washed' now its still the best city in the country

I doubt it. They're making money hand over fist at the "casino" up at Yonkers Raceway, but the track handle hasn't really gone up at all. All the money seems to be in the video poker machines (that's why calling it a casino is really misleading, all they have are glorified Joker Poker machines).

Still, the Rooneys (the same Rooney family that owns the Pittsburgh Steelers owns Yonkers Raceway) are making an absolute fortune from those machines.