As a matter of fact there ARE doubts in the hystorical community that Jesus Christ ever existed. There isn't any convincing evidence that "proves" he walked the earth. The only historians that provided evidence that he existed were devotedly Christians themselves.

Ok this is getting out of hand, lets just end this now. This has gone to an opinion orientated discussion to you trying to thwart and alter historical facts.

You are trying so strongly to prove your OPINIONATED logic that you are now categorizing historians into religious segmented groups. What you are basically saying is this:

There are Muslim historians
There are Jewish historians
There are Catholic historians
There are Christian historians

And EVERYTHING they have FACTUALLY proven can logically be doubted because of their religion.

Give me a break, lets just end this now. This went from a great opinionated conversation to someone trying to say that that proven facts are in fact not so because some of the men that PROVED the facts happened to be in a religious category of "christians"

So I guess what we will have to do is pre screen all historians and do a full background check. If they are researching a fact about lets say, cheese, then they CANNOT happen to like cheese because their HISTORICAL PROVEN FACT can now be questioned because they ate a fucking piece of cheese the day before.

I have been very candid saying no one is right or wrong and these were only my beliefs as a christian. Now Sonny is taking this one step to far.

Look, if you dont believe in God, fine, done believe. But dont try to go so fucking far with your OPINION that you do what you just did.

I wouldnt care if this were about God or a steaming turd. When you are having an opinionated conversation and someone tries to alter historical facts to sway popular opinion and vote their way they are extremely insecure or just arrogant. You have to have that feeling of " I am right" in order to feel good.

I will bet Sonny people that know you do not like talking to you about topics, I.E. the Mafia, religion, food, construction, anything, because no matter if they walk you outside and have you look up, you still wont say the sky is blue.

So to end this, I will give you what you need, You are right, I am wrong.

OUT

This IS getting out of hand. Debate your ideas; don't make any personal attacks.

Religion and politics often bring out deep-seated passions. Try to respect the other person's beliefs, but if you can't, don't flame him/her.

Changed. When I am wrong, I am wrong. you are correct and Sonny, I am sorry I made that personal attack, I really am.

I applaud Sonny for going forward with that one and I think he's absolutely right. I have yet to see any convincing evidence that Jesus even existed. There certainly have been many things written about him, but since when do writings prove an existence? Are there any photographs or audio recordings available? What about video footage, DNA evidence, a body? Yeah, there isn't even a body. Now if Jesus is God and he wants everyone to follow him and believe in him, why make it so difficult? God is almighty? If I was God, I'd try to make sure everyone knew I existed. Why go to such great lengths to hide yourself? What a childish behavior. Now people come to me and say 'How could you say such a thing. God is in the flowers, he's in the sun, the beautiful blue sky, the animals, I see God everywhere'. Really? I see nothing but irrational statements and claims that reek more of wishful thinking than anything else. You can not expect to have an intelligent conversation if you're gonna put your faith above logic.

Anyway yeah, here's Joe Adonis.

Everytime you say this you start all over again yourself.



Face it: there are no facts, only "signs". There are no dead remains of Jesus Christ, period.

Just because you really want to believe he existed doesn't give you the right to claim that it's unanimously accepted in the historical community, which it isn't.

You want to say otherwise. Good for you. Provide me with convincing evidence that support you're claim.



To the contrary, it's you who's forcing you're own oppinion with aggressively claiming that it's "without a doubt" and a "fact" that Jesus Christ existed.

And yes, it's mostly Christian historians who claim he existed. That says enough. And once again, there is no irrefutable evidence.



Actually, friend, you're the one who makes a big thing out of this.



No, it's the popular oppinion that Jesus Christ existed, there are no historical "facts". Historical facts means that there is a tomb with remains of Jesus, which there isn't.



Give me a break man... You're making a big joke out of yourself with this bullshit. It really seems that you're the one who's frustrated and is starting a fight over this. I'm not the one saying fuck this and fuck that. It's you.

And to conclude this whole useless discussion which really isn't going anywhere:

I never said Jesus never existed, I only responded to you're claim that it's an historical fact and unanimously accepted. That's all. To be honest, I don't care who's right or wrong in this discussion. Never was I trying to convince people, I was only giving my oppinion. Take it or leave it.

God has done that to everyone, Christians are the only ones who CHOOSE (key word there) to open their eyes and acknowledge his existance. And who every said "God is everywhere, he is in the flowers" is not correct. Gods love and forgiveness is everywhere but not everyone chooses to see it.

Everyone has their own free will, thats exactly the point in faith and trust. Also, how can you expect to have a logical conversation if you put your faith above logic? Easy, for Christians, Faith is logical.

Vinny, these are simply your oppinions and I respect that 100 percent, I really do, same with you Sonny B. What I would not respect is the next time someone close to you is dying, your dying, your in a plane crash and on the way down or someone sticks a barrel in your face and you say "please god help me"

Remember, Black and white....

Jack diNorscio a stand up guy



John Gotti

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=6494241&PIpi=273235

Crazy Joe Gallo

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi...p;GRid=376&

You didn't answer my question. You chose to do that, didn't you. Let's try again. Why would an almighty God hide himself? I know you believe God wants people to believe in him and serve him. Yet, he hides himself. That does nothing but create doubt and confusion. Look at what you got. You got a book, you got several different versions of that book and you got thousands of churches that all have their own special interpretation. If God is so smart, why would he hide himself and create such an extensive room for doubt? Is God a prankster? If what you are saying is the truth, then he most certainly is a prankster and personally, I wouldn't want to worship and serve a prankster. I have a little more respect for myself.



You have chosen to believe and worship something that you can't see, you can't hear and you can't smell. You have chosen to believe and worship something you can't prove or disprove. That is not logical. It is however very logical to be a critical thinker, because you not only keep challenging others, you are constantly challenging yourself. You are giving yourself a chance to progress. How does blind faith help you progress? You have deliberately chosen to weaken yourself. I question everything, I question you, I question myself and I certainly don't claim to know something I can not know with the senses that I have. The very same senses you have!



What?

No hard feelings.

With our senses we observe order in the universe. It's illogical to believe all this order came about randomly. Ironically even crime is organized.

You use the word "logical" alot there Vinny and you are right, I need to be logical. So I tell you what, lets do this. How about we stop this conversation right now ok? you WIN this one, you WIN, period. I accept defeat on this, I will tell everyone I know that I lost a debate on a Mafia forum and I will say I lost fair and square.

I will take my chances over yours when our time comes, and both of our times will come. Logically speaking of course...

Now we're tackling, yet another question. How did life start? How did the universe come about? The answer is we don't know. What is even more illogical than to believe things came about randomly or just happened, is to assume God created it. Because in order for that second premise to work, you have to make sure that premise is real. The first premise is almost as weak, because we know how nature evolves. We know about cause and effect. We know about natural selection. It is very easy to point to some God when you don't know the answer. I see children do this all the time.

By the way, there isn't a single scientist, a respected scientist in the scientific community who believes things just happened. This is the biggest misconception about scientists.

Like I said before, there are no winners in these sort of debates. However, if you insist on crowning me a winner then I will of course accept that with a humble heart. Thank you. I'm honored.

And Yes, I will stop this conversation now.

yay!!!! vinny wins!!!! now lets see if thats easy for the real vinny gorgeous with his upcoming trial

Well, not with that judge he won't.

Watching Find Me Guilty right now. Why Vin Diesel didn't get an Oscar for that performance is beyond me. What an actor. What a talent.

I agree, Vin Diesel deserved the Oscar for that film, I read that even DiNorscio came out of prison, said he liked the movie.

DiNorscio never got to see the movie. He died during the production.

Now that would have been some trick.

Jackie DiNorscio: July 20, 1940 – November 14, 2004

"Find Me Guilty": Released in the U.S. on March 17, 2006

There's an actor in Find Me Guilty whose name is Frank Adonis. Does anyone know if he's related to the you know who?

No relation. "You know who" had one son named Joe who passed away in the early 1990's.

Of course I know. It's so obvious.

and "who" is on first base...

Of course I knew. Joe..Joe Adonis. We grew up.

Cesare "The tall guy" Bonventre

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=8485322&PIpi=816726