GangsterBB.NET



Who's Online Now
5 registered members (Michael_Giovanni, NickleCity, BensonHURST, 2 invisible), 35 guests, and 4 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Shout Box
Site Links
>Help Page
>More Smilies
>GBB on Facebook
>Gina's Artroom
>Job Saver

>Godfather Website
>Scarface Website
>Mario Puzo Website

>MobPosters.com
>Puzo Amazon Store
>Ebay: Godfather
>Ebay: Scarface

>Live Chatroom
A word from our sponsors...



Active Member Birthdays
No birthdays today
Newest Members
PhillyGuys, Penguin, bedlam, Tornabene89, KnowNothing
9222 Registered Users
Top Posters(All Time)
Irishman12 55,362
DE NIRO 44,581
J Geoff 30,811
pizzaboy 23,224
SC 22,811
Mignon 19,050
Don Cardi 18,224
Turnbull 17,899
Sicilian Babe 17,274
plawrence 15,058
Beth E 14,900
Forum Statistics
Forums20
Topics36,862
Posts926,815
Members9,222
Most Online663
May 27th, 2012
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
why does no one like the Winegartner novels? #587052
12/01/10 08:34 PM
12/01/10 08:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 115
NickGeraci Offline OP
Made Member
NickGeraci  Offline OP
Made Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 115
I am new to this forum and just got finished with The Godfathers Revenge, I have yet to read The Godfather Returns. I think Winegartner's take on the story was very fresh. I was immediately drawn into the storyline, which I felt was very clever and worthy of following/continuing Mario Puzo. I am curious of the reasons some members dislike the Winegartner novels.......


"I Miss People, I Just Don't Remember Who They Are"

S.D.'99
Re: why does no one like the Winegartner novels? [Re: NickGeraci] #587066
12/01/10 11:20 PM
12/01/10 11:20 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 115
NickGeraci Offline OP
Made Member
NickGeraci  Offline OP
Made Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 115
so, it hasn't been much time since my post about Mike Winegartner's novels. However I've noticed many views since my post. If so many members have such a negative opinion about his novels, why are there no replies? I am not pro or con, but I would like some opinions..........


"I Miss People, I Just Don't Remember Who They Are"

S.D.'99
Re: why does no one like the Winegartner novels? [Re: NickGeraci] #587078
12/02/10 06:47 AM
12/02/10 06:47 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,255
MI
Lilo Offline
Lilo  Offline

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,255
MI
First and foremost, welcome. smile

Sometimes it takes a while to get replies. Who can say why? In this instance it might be because lots of people think the premise is so obvious as to not be worth discussing or has been discussed over and over again. Or maybe board activity is just at a temporary low tide. But again that's just a guess. It is always good to have people with contrary opinions here. clap

I can tell you my opinions. I was interested in the books when they came out but upon reading lost interest. I simply didn't think the writing style was very good. I didn't need the Fredo being a closeted homosexual theme as an explanation for his angst and "weakness". I considered that really lazy writing. I thought the names of some of the other mobsters were cartoonish and Tom getting involved in hits pretty outside of his character. I had zero interest in the lives of Sonny's children.

But fundamentally for all of the flaws, repetitive themes, weird obsessions and poorly written sections of Puzo's novels they were HIS novels. Winegartner's versions read like rushed fan fiction. And I'm not a fan of fan fiction. It's like sitting down to read a Conan story and discovering it was written by L. Sprague DeCamp or Lin Carter and not Robert E. Howard. Yeah, the names are the same and the structure recognizable but the spark is gone.

I would almost be more impressed if Winegartner had just written his own story of Cleveland or Midwest mobs and just included a few teaser references to the Corleone or Barzini Families back east. That certainly seems to be where his primary interests lay.


"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."
Winter is Coming

Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
Re: why does no one like the Winegartner novels? [Re: Lilo] #587186
12/03/10 02:48 PM
12/03/10 02:48 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224
New Jersey
AppleOnYa Offline
AppleOnYa  Offline

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224
New Jersey
I remember attempting to read 'The Godfather Returns' only because somebody who had heard I liked the movies plopped the paperback on my desk. Found it unbelievably boring and much like Lilo states, very 'lazy' and cheap writing. As if Winegartner just typed what he thought the reader would either expect or most likely want to hear. Fredo's suggested 'homosexuality' being ont of them. (I always wondered if someone other than Cazale had played the part, would he have taken that turn w/ the character...).

Last segment I recall dealing with was the one introducing Sonny's now teenaged daughters, who if I recall correctly (but maybe not it's been nearly 4yrs)...were growing up unaware of their 'Corleone' background, who their father was and where they came from.

After that I put the book down & never picked it back up.

Winegartner can't really be blamed, though...he was awarded the contract and did what he thought he needed to do.


A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.

- THOMAS JEFFERSON

Re: why does no one like the Winegartner novels? [Re: AppleOnYa] #587818
12/11/10 01:21 PM
12/11/10 01:21 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 307
EnzoBaker Offline
Capo
EnzoBaker  Offline
Capo
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 307
It's been a while since I read them, and the plots are a little fuzzy now, but as I recall my main objection to the two books was that they relegated Corleone Family characters to fairly minor roles while going on in great detail about the adventures of Nick Geraci (Winegardner's alter ego) and other new characters we had never heard of.

And as I recall there were several whopping continuity problems where certain plot points in the books contradicted events which took place in the movies (especially GF III), which I consider ironclad canon.


"You did good."
Re: why does no one like the Winegartner novels? [Re: EnzoBaker] #589067
12/24/10 11:21 PM
12/24/10 11:21 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 115
NickGeraci Offline OP
Made Member
NickGeraci  Offline OP
Made Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 115
I thank those who have replied as i am able to use other opinions to help my understanding of certain plots or themes that i may have missed. I will continue to post and ask questions,as I am an avid reader of all the posts here since joining, hopefully getting some much appreciated and valuable outlooks on this Universe in which we are all drawn.


"I Miss People, I Just Don't Remember Who They Are"

S.D.'99
Re: why does no one like the Winegartner novels? [Re: NickGeraci] #589303
12/28/10 11:03 AM
12/28/10 11:03 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 831
New Market, MD
DeathByClotheshanger Offline
Underboss
DeathByClotheshanger  Offline
Underboss
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 831
New Market, MD
Check out this thread, started by me...

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=279066#Post279066

Man, has it been 5 years already???

Re: why does no one like the Winegartner novels? [Re: NickGeraci] #597230
03/13/11 04:07 AM
03/13/11 04:07 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 115
NickGeraci Offline OP
Made Member
NickGeraci  Offline OP
Made Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 115
Just starting "Returns". Already read "Revenge", just a matter of i found that book first and curiosity took over. I'm not one to read things backwards. 2 chapters, so far, so good. PLEASE MEMBERS GIVE M.W. ANOTHER CHANCE>>>>>>


"I Miss People, I Just Don't Remember Who They Are"

S.D.'99
Re: why does no one like the Winegartner novels? [Re: NickGeraci] #597275
03/13/11 06:19 PM
03/13/11 06:19 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 10
H
Hagens_Heroes Offline
Wiseguy
Hagens_Heroes  Offline
H
Wiseguy
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 10
Honestly, I can understand why people don't like them. If I hadn't known that there would be a number of prominent characters who aren't members of the Corleone family or others that the movie focused on, I'd probably be more disappointed.

I am enjoying "Returns" so far, however, knowing that there are other plots and characters in play.

Re: why does no one like the Winegartner novels? [Re: NickGeraci] #613186
08/31/11 12:02 PM
08/31/11 12:02 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 76
Georgia, USA
D
DonRobertoCorleone Offline
Button
DonRobertoCorleone  Offline
D
Button
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 76
Georgia, USA
Generally I like anything to do with the Godfather or the mafia in general but I agree with Lilo, Apple on Ya, and Enzo Baker. I stated in another email that the story of Nick Geraci should have been ditched. I would have been in favor of the Rosato brothers being more in Geraci's role. Since the Cleveland Mob (Lakeville road group) was affiliated with Roth who backed the Rosatos. Since Pentangelli and Cicci would be out of commission, I would say that the other NY families would be looking to encroach on the Corleone NY territory. Mike would need someone fierce to hold the NY territory so the Rosatos could fill that role for a time until Mike could take his revenge for them causing trouble in the family. The stories of Joey Zasa and Don Altobello could have been done as well. Chicago along with Cleveland and the one of the NY families (along the same vein as Vito Genovese)would look to take over and be Boss of Bosses (Apalachian) and Mike could foil that plan and thats the start of the book.


DonRobertoCorleone
Re: why does no one like the Winegartner novels? [Re: DonRobertoCorleone] #614782
09/16/11 11:48 AM
09/16/11 11:48 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,467
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,467
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
Agreed with Lilo and Apple. I read The Godfather Returns...well about 3/4 of it, and I found it a complete bore.

Why he starts with Santino's daughters going to college is beyond me, and the Fredo homosexuality thing is ridiculous.
Is he implying homosexual are weak and stupid, or what?

As for Nick Geraci, he was a 2 dimensional character, alost a parody of the gangsters Puzo created, i.e. Sollozzo, Barzini, Tatt etc.

Nedless to say I never read the second one.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: why does no one like the Winegartner novels? [Re: NickGeraci] #614783
09/16/11 11:55 AM
09/16/11 11:55 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,224
Throggs Neck
pizzaboy Offline
The Fuckin Doctor
pizzaboy  Offline
The Fuckin Doctor

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,224
Throggs Neck
Originally Posted By: NickGeraci
PLEASE MEMBERS GIVE M.W. ANOTHER CHANCE>>>>>>

No.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: why does no one like the Winegartner novels? [Re: NickGeraci] #615075
09/20/11 01:32 AM
09/20/11 01:32 AM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,819
Australia
M
Mickey_MeatBalls_DeMonica Offline
Mickey Meatballs
Mickey_MeatBalls_DeMonica  Offline
Mickey Meatballs
M
Underboss
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,819
Australia
I recently tried giving Winegartner a chance. I later punched myself for not taking the majority of this boards views on it into more into consideration.

Now there's a couple hours of my life Im not going to get back. I coulda been doing something productice, like sleeping.

What dreck. Its like...how dare he??? And as for Nick "First I survived death by virtue of an underground grave, then I faked my death in an aeroplane crash" Geraci...if Winegartner really modelled the character after himself, then Winegartner is probably one of those guys that masturbates while looking in the mirror.

"Me! ME! Oh yeah, me, oh yes, yeah, uh-huh, me, me, me, ME!...I want a bowl of cereal and then sleep now"


(cough.)
Re: why does no one like the Winegartner novels? [Re: NickGeraci] #615935
09/28/11 01:41 PM
09/28/11 01:41 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,493
Sonny_Black Offline
Underboss
Sonny_Black  Offline
Underboss
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,493
I have read enough of the Winegardner novels to come to a conclusion, and that conclusion is simple.

I think that Winegardner's biggest mistake was not his writing style, but to add his own alter ego to an excisting and popular story, which really is an insult to the fans and to Mario Puzo himself.

You don't do such a thing. It's a big fuck you to everyone who loves the original story and films. He had to show some respect, but he ignorantly or arrogantly chose otherwise. And this I think is the main reason why many fans hate his novels.

It's a shame, because I feel that the rest of the story isn't bad at all. I'm convinced that he could have made a decent novel if he chose to only expand upon the story and characters of the original novel and the first two films. Characters such as the Rosato Brothers (the most interesting and popular side characters which we are pretty much kept in the dark about), Don Altobello, and ofcourse Hyman Roth and his cold war with Michael. He could have told alot about the Corleones' dealings in Cuba just like TB has done on this forum.

But to make things even worse, he let's his own character kill Tom Hagen! And then he let's Michael receive a dead baby alligator as a sign of Tom's demise just as the dead fish was for Luca in the film. At this point his story was at its worst.

But I do like the Louise Russo/Chicago story, Michael's earlier years, Tom Hagen's story and him trying to become elected in congress, and Clemenza's story in New York. I think even the story of Tramonti organizing the death of the president wasn't bad. But since sixty percent of the story consists of Nick Geraci and how awesome and ingenieus he (Winegardner) was, I don't like sixty percent of the novels.

I think that Winegardner isn't a bad writer, but he fucked things up by making some really bad decisions. But he probably doesn't give a shit and think's he's better than Puzo ever was.

The late 1950s were the most interesting period for the Mafia and also The Godfather and a novel about those years deserves to be a good one. It's disapointing that this is not the case.


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
Re: why does no one like the Winegartner novels? [Re: Sonny_Black] #615937
09/28/11 01:46 PM
09/28/11 01:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,224
Throggs Neck
pizzaboy Offline
The Fuckin Doctor
pizzaboy  Offline
The Fuckin Doctor

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,224
Throggs Neck
Well put, Sonny smile.



"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: why does no one like the Winegartner novels? [Re: NickGeraci] #616007
09/29/11 10:16 AM
09/29/11 10:16 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,493
Sonny_Black Offline
Underboss
Sonny_Black  Offline
Underboss
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,493
Thanks, pb.

I forgot to add that I also noticed that Winegardner did a lot of research on the mafia and also The Godfather, so I want to give him credit for that. I liked how he explained the dealings between the families. For instance, the idea that Clemenza's son married Zaluchi's daughter to strengthen ties between the Corleones and Zaluchis. This is obviously a reference to Profaci's daughters marrying the sons of Detroit's bosses. I also liked the idea of 'The Fredo Corleone show' in Las Vegas. I would see Fredo do such a thing as he really was that kind of a person. So these are all plausible ideas.

So again, all the side stories and its characters are pretty decent, but sadly the main story with his own character being in the center of it all is highly implausible, even awkward.


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
Re: why does no one like the Winegartner novels? [Re: NickGeraci] #616436
10/04/11 01:22 PM
10/04/11 01:22 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 14,341
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 14,341
Texas
I just got The Godfather's Revenge. I've read somehting over 30 pages so far. Madonne! Puzo was a sloppy write; this guy is a non-writer. I am already bored with it. His transparent mimicing of historical events is just plain unexciting. I don't know if I am going to read any more of it.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: why does no one like the Winegartner novels? [Re: olivant] #616751
10/07/11 11:29 AM
10/07/11 11:29 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 831
New Market, MD
DeathByClotheshanger Offline
Underboss
DeathByClotheshanger  Offline
Underboss
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 831
New Market, MD
These books were probably one of the biggest disappointments I have ever experienced outside of the 1997 Orioles, 2006 Ravens and 2010 Ravens.

Last edited by DeathByClotheshanger; 10/07/11 11:29 AM.
Re: why does no one like the Winegartner novels? [Re: NickGeraci] #635877
02/21/12 08:19 AM
02/21/12 08:19 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 307
Wellington, New Zealand
veneratio Offline
Sicilian Paisan
veneratio  Offline
Sicilian Paisan
Capo
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 307
Wellington, New Zealand
Wow, when I read these books when they came out I really enjoyed them. Hmmm... Maybe I was naive and need to read them again judging by the thoughts of our moustache Petes here at GBB! ;-)


"Just when I thought I was out.. They pull me back in"
Re: why does no one like the Winegartner novels? [Re: veneratio] #639426
03/11/12 03:15 PM
03/11/12 03:15 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,493
Sonny_Black Offline
Underboss
Sonny_Black  Offline
Underboss
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,493
Originally Posted By: veneratio
Wow, when I read these books when they came out I really enjoyed them. Hmmm... Maybe I was naive and need to read them again judging by the thoughts of our moustache Petes here at GBB! ;-)


I'm not sure if that could be considered a compliment. whistle wink


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
Re: why does no one like the Winegartner novels? [Re: veneratio] #639484
03/11/12 11:29 PM
03/11/12 11:29 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 28
JJ_Gittes Offline
Wiseguy
JJ_Gittes  Offline
Wiseguy
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 28
Originally Posted By: veneratio
Wow, when I read these books when they came out I really enjoyed them. Hmmm... Maybe I was naive and need to read them again judging by the thoughts of our moustache Petes here at GBB! ;-)


I enjoyed them when I first read them too, but after re-reading them a couple of years later it was obvious they were rubbish, and I completely understand why so many on these boards hate them so much.

Most of my initial enjoyment clearly stemmed from the novelty of 'A New Godfather Story', and I wasn't expecting great literature anyway, so it was easy to be forgiving.

Re: why does no one like the Winegartner novels? [Re: NickGeraci] #648636
05/25/12 06:21 PM
05/25/12 06:21 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 377
Tampa, FL
waynethegame Offline
Capo
waynethegame  Offline
Capo
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 377
Tampa, FL
To put it bluntly, the problem is that he billed it as Godfather novel, and it was mostly about his own characters. It might have been better received if it was a "Tales from the Godfather" type of story, revolving around other minor characters that we aren't aware of from the movies/novel, but referencing the Corleones. Instead it was billed to be ABOUT the Corleones, and it wasn't.

To add insult to injury, Winegardner committed the gravest of all sins in writing: He used a Mary Sue character and to make matters worse he took established characters with established personalities and had them act completely contrary to how they were established to act in canon.


Wayne

"Finance is a gun. Politics is knowing when to pull the trigger."
Don Lucchesi
Re: why does no one like the Winegartner novels? [Re: NickGeraci] #648673
05/25/12 10:53 PM
05/25/12 10:53 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 578
D
danielperrygin Offline
Underboss
danielperrygin  Offline
D
Underboss
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 578
In my opinion it is because his books are the same thing as us talking about the Godfather on here, not Puzo.

Re: why does no one like the Winegartner novels? [Re: danielperrygin] #654606
07/06/12 12:20 AM
07/06/12 12:20 AM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 690
Nashville
BarrettM Offline
Wiseguy, eh?
BarrettM  Offline
Wiseguy, eh?
Underboss
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 690
Nashville
Never read the books, but I read this.

Quote:
Geraci becomes a boxer in his teens, eventually becoming a heavyweight champion under the moniker "Ace Geraci".


Winegartner living out some creepy fantasy, egomania behavior.

Quote:
Tom Hagen trusts him [Momo Barone] enough to give him the job of killing a man who stole his watch.


Not believable.

Personally I was deterred from reading the books when I discovered the main character is some guy we've never heard of from the series.

Re: why does no one like the Winegartner novels? [Re: BarrettM] #654644
07/06/12 04:04 PM
07/06/12 04:04 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,493
Sonny_Black Offline
Underboss
Sonny_Black  Offline
Underboss
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,493
Originally Posted By: BarrettM
Winegartner living out some creepy fantasy, egomania behavior.


Which is why it never happened.


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
Re: why does no one like the Winegartner novels? [Re: NickGeraci] #700852
03/03/13 09:48 PM
03/03/13 09:48 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 8
Hungary
T
The_Doctor Offline
Associate
The_Doctor  Offline
T
Associate
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 8
Hungary
I think I've read one of them back in the day (can't recall much of the plot) but Nick Geraci is just a Gary Stu. How were these published? It's fanfiction.

Re: why does no one like the Winegartner novels? [Re: NickGeraci] #703448
03/16/13 04:25 PM
03/16/13 04:25 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 377
Tampa, FL
waynethegame Offline
Capo
waynethegame  Offline
Capo
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 377
Tampa, FL
Expanding on what I said previously last year, it wouldn't have been as bad if it had been done like the Star Wars "Tales From" novels that took minor/background characters and gave them life. As I recall the books were based on the novel, and not the movies, but he could have done it a lot better if the first book had expanded on characters from GFII (e.g. Pentangeli, the Rosatos) and the second characters from GFIII (e.g. Zaza and The Ant, Altobello) to fill in the gaps with their background. Instead he went off on entirely his own tangent, with new characters and ignored existing characters entirely and had characters act totally different to how they acted previously. Basically the books should have been the filler between each movie, and ended just before the movies started (so the first book would have ended with the Corleones preparing for Anthony's communion, which would segue into the beginning of GFII, and the second would have ended with Michael learning that he's receiving that award from the Church).

The books would have been more well received if it had ONLY focused on his own characters and then made some vague references to the Godfather (e.g. have one of his own characters talk about "Don Michael's operations in Nevada" or have a cameo appearance in a scene).

Last edited by waynethegame; 03/16/13 04:28 PM.

Wayne

"Finance is a gun. Politics is knowing when to pull the trigger."
Don Lucchesi
Re: why does no one like the Winegartner novels? [Re: waynethegame] #704392
03/20/13 01:59 PM
03/20/13 01:59 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,467
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,467
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
Yeah, but when that happens you always run into a Jar Jar Binks like character, and the GF doesn't need that!


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."


Moderated by  Don Cardi, J Geoff, SC 

Powered by UBB.threads™