Sollozzo made a concrete proposition to Vito: his capital and police/political protection in return for a big share of Sol’s drug profits. After Vito was shot, Sol kidnapped Tom and called Sonny, telling him that Hagen would be returned in three hours “with our proposition.” But in the film (and in the novel), Sol never gave Tom a concrete proposal with terms—he just wanted Tom’s cooperation in convincing Sonny to put business before vengeance and get on with a drug deal. And, it didn’t take three hours for him to make that pitch to Tom.

This makes me wonder: If Sol really wanted Corleone capital and whatever remained of their police/political protection, shouldn’t he have given Tom new terms to bring to Sonny in order to mollify him or at least get him to postpone vengeance while he thought about what was in it for him? Tom and Sonny could not have assumed that the terms would be the same as offered to Vito--Sol knew, as did they, that Vito's presumed death diminished the Corlones' strength and police/political clout.

Or was he, even before learning of Vito’s survival, trying to buy time to get a shot at Sonny? I’m thinking that Barzini and Tattaglia, believing Vito dead, might have encouraged a plot to whack Sonny, too. With Fredo immobilized by his nervous breakdown and Michael not yet a part of the family business, Clemenza and Tessio would be leaderless. Barz and Tatt could buy them out (or eliminate them), and annex the Corleone Family, possibly with Sol as caporegime. A lot of police/political protection would be cut adrift, but, as Puzo wrote, they still had mortgages to pay and kids to put through college. Tatt and Barz would have picked them up and have been strengthened.

What do you think?

TB, even the novel doesn't really enlighten us here. In it Sollozzo states that a war between the Tattaglias and Corleones was the last thing wanted. He doesn't elaborate ona deal, new or toherwise. In the movie and novel Sollozzo dioes admit that Sonny's first reactio wil be war, but he seems to accept that as an immediate consequernce of Vito's death. Again, the whole idea of murdering Vito seems preposterous since Sollozzo wanted a million and Vito's political influence. In any case, Sollozzo seems to be thinking long term and wants to use Tom's reasonableness to negotiate for him with the Corleones. Given that, there were no new terms for Tom to convey.

Bingo! There's your answer.

If Sollozzo had not learned of Vito's surviving the ambush he would have given the details of his plan to Tom Hagen.

Turn,

I got the impression that Tom was snatched around the same time that the hit on the Don took place, possibly earlier.

Sollozo told Tom that the Don was dead as a matter of fact, like "it's a done deal, we're gonna get the drop on him".

If we wanted you dead, you'd be dead, relax Tom.


He probably gave Tom some conditions...and knowing the Sonny was interested in the deal...he figured that after the storm subsided that Sonny would eventually take the deal.Tom, the non Sicilian consig, would see the dollars and sense of the deal and convince Sonny to take it.

After all parties learn that Vito is not dead, Tom becomes expendable. In fact, in the book, Tom tells Sonny that for the past several hours he had been using EVERY ounce of his intellect convincing the Turk NOT to kill him and that HE would craft a deal with Sonny that would satisfy all parties. The phrase he uses is " I plead for my life as if I was arguing before the Supreme Court"

Tom said whatever would keep him alive....no arrangement or deal was made.

Sol told Tom, "Now you can go" before he learned Vito was alive, which leads me to believe he wanted Tom to go to Sonny and tell him exactly what he did..."If the old man dies, you take the deal."

It is a real possibility that with Tom at the helm Tess and Clem might have been skittish, and ripe for plucking by Barz or Tatt (same difference for this purpose). Then to work out the details the traitor would have lured Tom to negotiate the deal
"on my territory," where it is safe. Difference is he would have gone and thats when he would be whacked.

That really would have put Tom in a pickle. I suspect he would go into hiding.

Oh yeah. Never mind.

He had arranged for the hit on Vito already knowing that Sonny had been 'hot' for his deal. Probably one of the very reasons for killing Vito. That and the elimination of Luca (which Tom & Sonny had yet to learn about) assured Solozzo that a deal with the Corleones could be made without having to take Sonny out ... at least for the time being.

Thanks, all, for the thoughtful posts.
I've concluded that I was way off base in thinking that Sol, Tatt and Barz were buying time to whack Sonny and annex the Corleone Family. If they'd wanted to do that, they'd have whacked everyone at once, as Michael did in 1955. They could have gotten Fredo at the same time they shot Vito. And, if they could buy Paulie, they could have bought someone in Sonny's regime (his hot temper would have made for plenty of grudges), and have whacked him at the same time--why wait for him to marshal hs forces?

But, that still leaves Olivant's oft-cited point: If they needed the Corleones' political muscle, why kill Vito, knowing that his death would greatly reduce it? I've often rationalized it, but I didn't totally convince myself (certainly not Oli).

Sol alludes to this in the novel, TB. When they snatch Hagen, Sol makes it a point to tell him something like "Fredo's alive because of me. You can tell Sonny that." I guess he figured he could use that as a bargaining chip.

Sparing Fredo... some favor.

Maybe we can look at it this way...
Why did Genovese try to murder Costello even though he knew Costello had more political connections? What made the Gallo Brothers think they could take on the entire Profaci group?

The first answer imo is that it was a street thing. Sollozzo felt severely disrespected and humiliated. As he said Vito's answer to him was that "You can't do business in my city/state/country". Sollozzo was a man of significant enough pride that he wasn't going to accept that answer or leave the "insult" unaddressed.

The second answer is that, as we've talked before, everybody's gotta eat. It would have been much easier for all considered if Vito said yes. But if he said no and was murdered, sooner or later many (not all) of Vito's connections would wind up with Barzini/Sollozzo/Tattaglia. Maybe it would have taken a few years for things to settle down but eventually things would have been quiet. And if the drug money was as big as Sollozzo thought the profits would have made a few years of turbulence worthwhile.

That's how I see it anyway.

Maybe because reduced protection is better than none at all. With Vito alive, there is no deal. With Sonny interested and Vito dead they would have at least a portion of the political protection needed to get business rolling. It may have limited them somewhat, but they could still get started.

Anyway, why strive for ANY logic in this...??? As has been stated here before by very prominent members, the idea of a mafia business being passed from father to son is highly fictional, and one of the few unrealistic aspects of The Godfather. So if we are to suspend our belief that Santino as oldest son automatically inherits the empire if Vito dies...then why not go further and accept Solozzo killing Vito to be able to work with Sonny? The emotion of this being a 'family' as well as a 'Family', is what makes it a better story.

Apple

While it certainly is highly unlikely, it's not impossible. There is at least one example of it happening in real life--Santo Trafficante Jr. succeeding his father as head of the Tampa family in the 1950s.

Why would they have to go to Vito in the first place? Because his influence was based on personal relationships with politicans and judges. If the drug business could survive with him dead, why go to him in the first place? Also, are we to understand that Sonny would do business with the people who had murdered his father?

While I agree with many of the theories mentioned in this thread, I belive that there's another important factor which led to the assassination attempt.

It is unlikely that Vito would have stood idly by while Sollozzo and Tats/Barzini grew rich off of drug proceeds. As long as Vito was carrying around judges and politicians like so many nickels and dimes, he could put Sollozzo et al. out of business whenever he wanted to. A new venture wasn't likely to grow with a shadow like that hanging over it.

With Vito out of the picture, either the judges and politicians would go to the highest bidder or, at worst, they would be neutral parties.

The latter scenario, while not ideal, would at least give Sollozzo and Barzini a fighting chance and was surely preferable to the possibility the Vito would use his influence to squash them.

It also happened with the Patriarca's in New England and the Zerilli's in Detroit. It is unlikely, but not fictional.

My theory has been that, first, Sol was "a Sicilian" (Tom to Vito in the novel). Vito gave him no way to realistically pursue his plan to build a huge wholesale/retail drug empire in the US. He either had to withdraw with his tail between his legs--or show himself as "a man of respect." Second, he figured that Sonny was hot for his deal, and could be persuaded (by Tom) to put aside vengeance for business. Third, at least some judges would remain loyal to the Corleones, and he could bargain for their services at a cut rate because Vito was gone. Fourth, those judges who bolted the Corleones (because they wouldn't cast their fates with Sonny) would be up for grabs by the others. Fifth, the other Dons wouldn't have attacked Vito on their own. But if Sol volunteered, why not let him try? If he succeeded, the Corleones would be gravely weakened, and they'd profit by that. If he failed, it was on his and Tatt's heads.

Yes because as Tom points out (and Solozzo later points out to Michael)...it would've been strictly a business move.

That's how these people think.

What's more amazing to me is how Solozzo/Tattaglia/Barzini would dare plan the second attempt on Vito's life, in the hospital after the first had failed. That combined with that bogus meeting with Michael would've almost certainly initiated the war that Michael himself ended up starting himself.

"a hundred button men on the street twenty-four hours a day; that Turk
shows one hair on his ass, he's dead --"

And that's just for trying to kill his father!

It is indeed unbelievable that for business reasons someone would be expected to overlook the attempted or actual murder of his father.

And yet that is what would have been required. That's the life they're in. Paradoxically, forgoing vengeance might make one lose respect but putting vengeance above all else could also mess up business, cost other people money and also lead to a loss of respect.

If it is ok to reference book here, I think Sonny explains to Michael that if the Don had died, rationally he would have had no choice but to go along with the deal because he would have been fighting too hard to hold on to other Corleone interests. And the other Families would never stand for him launching a war of revenge years later. He also says that just to be prudent Tattaglia would never let him get too close. Of course I think it's in the same group of paragraphs that Sonny says Sollozzo is dead meat and he doesn't care what it costs. So it's a mixed message.

I think that Sollozzo and company were hoping that after the initial shock of the Don's murder, that Hagen and the capos would be able to "talk sense" into Sonny and after Sonny's temper subsided even he would recognize -or be made to recognize by the greed of his subordinates-that the Sollozzo deal made business sense, personal feelings aside.

Obviously Sollozzo underestimated the depth of Sonny's feelings for his Dad and literally never saw Mike coming.

If Vito had died and Sonny had gone along with the deal, his leadership of the family might have been fatally damaged. When he, Tom and Vito met prior to the meeting, Puzo wroter that Sonny was "itching" for a big operation of his own so he could "get out from under the Don's thumb." He admitted to Michael in the novel that his remark at the Sol meeting contributed to the assassination attempt--and there were plenty of witnesses. Tess and Clem were loyal to Vito. What if they got it in their heads that Sonny was going along with the deal for his own selfish purposee, and dishonoring Vito by not seeking revenge? And what if that notion got around among the troops?

In the novel, Sonny tells Clemenza that if the Don had died he would have had to make the deal, then go after Sollozzo "ten years from now." But being that the Don lived through the attempt, they had to take out Sollozzo right away.

From the novel (page 118 Signet edition)

"If they had killed him, I would have had to make the deal and Sollozzo would have won. For now. I would have waited maybe and got him five, ten years from now. But don't call him lucky, Pete, that's underrating him."

I think this statement provides the answer: "... it was Barzini all along." Barzini's objective was to assume the mantle of leadership of the NY underworld. Thus, Vito's elimination was essential. Barzini saw an opportunity to use Sollozzo as a proxy for that elimination regardless of drugs. Barzini knew that "... narcotics is the coming thing" and that he could incorporate the drug business into his empire using his own connections and financing.

I think Sollozzo also understood that whether or not Sonny would agree to the deal, he would have to kill him nonetheless, because he knew that sooner or later Sonny would avenge his father's murder and therefore remained a major threat to the whole operation.

It may not have been for the INITIAL attempt on Vito's life, but for what happened at the hospital w/ McClusky and Michael's discovery that they were planning to get at him again.

Remember Tessio's announcement the next morning that Bruno Tattaglia had been hit the night before because Sonny got mad at the hospital incident. Also, right up until Michael's speech about how they were going to kill Vito, and his plan of killing Solozzo & McClusky...Tom was successfully persuading Sonny that this was all business in order to avoid an outright war.

It was ALL business until outsider Michael stirred the pot by deciding to kill a cop...something that would've previously been unheard of.

Apple

I disagree.

Sonny to Tom: "Give me Sollozzo. Or fight the Corleone Family."

interesting...though I disagree. I may have to read that part again ...never saw it that way.

I wonder if you or another member can establish the timeline , from the novel, of when exactly Vito put Luca out there to "investigate" and what prompted it.

Read the novel several times but don't remember why Vito had Luca out there sniffing around.....




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About the political connections, from what I recall from the book, had Vito died...most of his political/police connections of the Corleone family would have evaporated and I don't think any other figure or amount of money could have retained or recaptured even 5% of it.


The early years of the Don, he's described as having put many 2nd generation Italian American kids through (law) school and he had long worked with political machines in helping steer the Italian american vote.

Book describes his helping kids through school as being a gift that would pay returns in the future. The D.A.s, judges, elected officials in the area are indebted to the Don in a way that's deeper than greasing a palm. It's assumed that it is these local political/legal figures that helped the Don establish relationships with Congressmen and Senators,etc from other regions.

Lilo, there is no narrative explanation about why Vito tapped Luca (as opposed to anyone else) to infiltrate the Tattaglias/Sollozzo. It must all be inferred. However, the novel states that, on the Don's order, Luca had initiated contact with the T/S several months before the attempt on Vito. So, if Vito is shot a week or two before Christmas, then Luca made his first contact when? - mid-September. Of course, Vito sending Luca was a big mistake since the novel makes clear that Luca's allegiance to Vito was legend and that legend would have been well known in the underworld community. That community's members would be the last to accept Luca's claim of dissatisfaction with the Corleones.

Your comments about Vito's political connections evaporating upon his death confirm my hypothesis about Barzini. Barzini didn't care about securing Vito's political and legal connections - Barzini wanted the big seat, so he let Sollozzo and the Tattaglias do his dirty work.

olivant, did you call me Lilo?


Howling Wolf and "Marlo Stansfield" don't look THAT much alike.