Kind of on the same subject ~ do any of your women scream out, "Oh, God", at the ultimate moment of togetherness, Mick?

SC, you sure have a way of lightening things up with your humor!

Faith is personal. It's not something to be judged and I certainly don't believe that anyone is going to heaven or hell for their beliefs. I think that we should all be try to be good to those that we share this planet with, despite the fact that some will inevitably get on our nerves.

I think that, believe in Him or not, the way that Jesus lived was pretty cool. He cared for others, he wanted to relieve their pain, he was humble, he was kind, loving and forgiving. Quite a legacy.

Exactly SB.

I believe in God and the divinity of Christ. And it's not just a matter of faith. It encompasses faith and reason.

I believe in spirituality and a creator/beginning. I don't really believe in religion. How can someone blindly follow one religion and then think the billions of other people are wrong with their religion? Like "I'm Christian and going to heaven, But you Catholics are screwed" Doesn't make any sense to me. Also I've seen how religion has blatantly told a bunch of people that their native culture is wrong and the way they've been living is a sin for thousands of years.

I do believe there is a lot more than what we just see around us. I admire the Earths perfect design and do believe it is due to a creator ( A God/infinite spirit etc)
I just really think religion is a massive turn off to people seeking some spiritual guidance. According to religion, I should go to hell cause I've had sex with women when I wasn't married to them. My daughter is a sin etc etc.
Why would this loving God, also condemn you to "hell" to spend eternity in pain and agony all because I didn't read a book that has been changed and chopped and misused for centuries....

I follow my own spirituality.

My answer is he wouldn't. While there are judgmental fundamentalists that believe and vocalize this sentiment, it is not the teaching of my faith that you are condemned. Unfortunately, much of the media outlets would like to discredit religion by taking fringe intolerant viewpoints and portraying it as mainstream.

Keep in mind that we are all sinners. There is nothing we can do to escape this fact, and it does not make us hypocrites for striving for the ideal. Redemption lies not with sin, but upon how we react to sin, our struggles. We are all going to fall along the path, but it's whether we get back up and help others up that will define our spiritual worth.

Your post was thoughtful and heartfelt.

Just a little side thought to this eternal debate.

To follow a religion and be good at it is like anything else in life - you have to practice and apply. You can't take snippets here and there or ala carte selections. You have to embrace the tenents of whatever faith you are inclined to follow. And to support Kly's explanation, you have to try to be good; try to change; try to be humble. After the Ten Commandments Jesus Christ added another one - love one another. Tough to argue with that one.

I don't agree with that. Many if not most Catholics in the U.S. are pro-choice on abortion and most use artificial birth control. Does that mean they're not legitimate Catholics?

And the whole idea that you have to embrace all aspects of a religion is largely a Western/Middle Eastern one. In the Far East, there are many people who combine elements of Shinto, Buddhism, Confucianism, etc.

To be honest, "love one another" seems pretty stupid to me. Love is not an act of will. You either love someone or you don't. You can't choose whether you do or not. I think it makes sense to say that people should respect each other's basic rights and treat each other decently. But a "commandment" to love seems nonsensical to me.

VitoC, obviously you have strong beliefs against any god. That's fine. But I don't believe that you need to disparage the beliefs of others. Using words like "nonsensical" only makes you look intolerant.

There is no "11th Commandment". It was an expression. Jesus preached that we should care for one another. He didn't "command" that we love one another. He commanded very little. Jesus led by example.

While there are many tenets of the Catholic Church that I disagree with, I realize that the "Church" was created by men. Men are fallible. They aren't perfect. And the world has changed since its invention, and perhaps the Church doesn't try to keep up quickly enough for some. However, the teachings of Jesus referenced in my earlier post are as relevant now as they were then.

I think him trying to disparage the beliefs of others is no more insulting that those who try to force their faith on non believers.

I agree. That's why I said that faith is personal. However, I have read several posts here that were rather disparaging towards believers, and I don't remember anyone posting anything that could remotely be considered forcing faith on others.

I didn't mean to sound disparaging of anyone. If you look at what I said, you'll notice that I said that "to me" it sounds nonsensical. I didn't make a factual statement that it's nonsensical.

I'm strongly opposed to hostility or discrimination against anyone based on their religious beliefs. If other people respect mine, I respect theirs. But given that this is a thread where people are specifically talking about whether or not they believe in God and why, I don't think I said anything out of line. Sometimes, to say you believe something is stupid or nonsensical is the only way to honestly express how you feel about it. I didn't mean to imply that I have any hostility toward MaryCas or anyone else who holds those views. I don't.

Vito, perhaps I misinterpreted what you wrote; however, telling someone that what they believe is "nonsensical" or "stupid" is disparaging to me.

I am glad to hear that you believe in tolerance. There's little enough of it in this world.

Again, I return to the idea of substituting a belief in God for a belief in fairies at the bottom of the garden.

The latter believer will undoubtedly be judged by most as stupid and nonsensical.

When no more evidence for God exists than for fairies at the bottom of the garden, why shouldn't we hold it up to the same sort of rational scrutiny?

There's tolerance and there's bending-over-backwards liberalism that creates the sort of moderate environment in which fundamentalism and other more dangerous beliefs foster.

At the very least, a belief in a Grand Designer/Inventor/Maker is insidious.

Nobody has reasonably tackled or even tried to tackle some of my arguments in this thread.

Again, might we put this down to the notion that 'faith transcends all arguments on the contrary'?

Seems a bit of an intellectual cop-out to me. A faux pas if ever there was one. The unanswerable trump card. Balls.

That God 'works in mysterious ways' is no less a cop-out.

Why does God only exist to those who believe in him? Is he some sort of stubborn 'well if you don't want to be my friend you can fuck off' sort of moron?

Quite frankly, I personally didn't reply to any of your posts or try to tackle anything that you said because what you wrote and the words you chose prove that you wouldn't listen anyway. So, what's the point? You've made up your mind. You obviously think of those that believe as mindless sheep. So, let us baa away.

Let's make it clear here that I'm against, and am attacking - even being disparaging toward - the notion of a God. By extension, though it's almost a different matter in itself, I'd also attack organised religion.

That doesn't mean I want to burn anybody at the stake, though; I could most probably sit with anyone who's posted in this thread and have an interesting conversation about life. We'd just perhaps have to steer away from religious matters.

One of my closest friends with whom I've made films calls himself a Catholic. I've said everything to him that I've written here.

I'm not sure if that amounts to 'I don't have to agree with what you say but I respect your right to say it,' because I don't really know what those sorts of statements mean.

To me, a belief in God is often representative of a wider intellectual crisis. If someone can believe in God, when there's so little if any rational argument in his favour, what else might they believe in matters of urgency?

I was writing my last post as you posted yours.

I'm not sure about the 'mindless sheep' thing; to a large extent, if pushed, I'd have to question why people would believe in a God without at least admitting to its essential silliness, like people do with other superstitions.

My vehemence is in response to the utter seriousness with which we are meant to treat theisms; why must 'God' endure science when the notion of a flat world and so many other naive beliefs rightly haven't?

That's not to say I don't have some sort of understanding of what might drive people to a belief in God, a belief in some Grand Other (whose image Man tellingly loaned his own) on whom we might project our neuroses and fears for comfort. Historically, it's actually been a clever survival mechanism; I just think it's extremely outdated. (Just as the Industrial Revolution was a vital part of the scientific and intellectual progression of mankind, but how the capitalists ought to be long dead.)

The question of why one might believe in God is not insignificant. Beyond familial indoctrination, that is.

Why do I believe in God? Because I believe that there are things in this world that are larger than Man. I believe that there are miracles. I felt life grow within me and I believe that only a God could make that happen. I felt both my grandmother and father's life slip away. At that moment, I saw them regain strength that they hadn't had in months and go on with a certain joy. I've spoken to a friend who had a near-fatal heart attack, and she described entering another world, only to be drawn back by her daughter's voice.

There are things that I have seen and have experienced that have convinced me that there is a guiding force to this life.

Is there some mathematical equation that I can provide to "prove" my beliefs? Can I show you photographs? Can I yank God out from behind a curtain? No. But I know what I know. That's MY brand of faith. It may not work for you or for anyone else. But it works for me.

Wouldn't you be interested in accounting for those recoveries with medical and scientific explanations, though? Does the belief that God saved your parents undermine the tremendous work of the doctors, or the amazing (even 'mysterious') complexity of the human body?

As for 'other world' experiences, they'll have to remain unexplained to everyone - including those who apparently experienced them, since again there's no rational reason to account for them with 'God'. I'd be very interested if anyone's ever had an 'other world' experience without even having had God or an afterlife as part of their social world, their upbringing; in other words, in a Godless world, where God is not a large part of the society the person lives in, would a dying person ever experience an 'other world'?

Or:

Why did I dream of Wine Gums last night after craving for them all day? Would I have dreamed of Wine Gums had I never laid my eyes on them before in my life?

(I too think there are things larger than man's intellectual capacities; but I think accounting for such things with 'God' forever makes them stagnant, non-progressive. Which is why theism essentially and inherently contradicts the scientific endeavour of mankind.)

Capo, you definatley right now need a one-hand applause.

No, you misunderstood. My father and grandmother DIDN'T recover. They died. And in the moments before death, they experienced a surge of strength and a joy that is inexplicable. I was pregnant when my father died, and I felt terrible that he didn't live to see my second child born. After I gave birth, my father came to see me. Some might say that it was the morphine, but he was there. I know it. I don't know what world he crossed to be there, but he was THERE. And I believe that God sent him.

However, my mother and I are both cancer survivors. Science? Of course. And I believe that God guided those doctors in their endeavors. I also believe the amazing complexities of the human body is further proof of God. We are incredible creatures, and I believe that we had a creator.

One reason why I don't believe in God is that I don't think there's any need for a God. Many people look at the universe, human beings, and other complex things and think that these couldn't have come into being without a God. But to me, this just substitutes one mystery for another. The question then becomes: where did God come from? Such a powerful creator would itself call for an explanation as to why it exists. Because of this, I end up concluding that not everything has to have a cause--that even complicated things can exist on their own without a creator.

Often, people point to positive things--people with illnesses recovering or improving, people being motivated to be medical researchers or help others in other ways--as being evidence of God's power at work. But if God (at least an all powerful God) is going to be credited with the amazingly good things that take place, wouldn't he ("it" might be a better pronoun) also have to be blamed for the bad things as well--for example, for making Hitler want to do what he did, and for all the horrible diseases that exist?

In addition, even if there is a God, I don't see a clear reason why God would be morally good. As human history makes abundantly clear, power doesn't equal goodness.

Capo, while I fully understand you think God and organized religion is absurd, can you at least acknowledge that religion can be a good thing for people?

One of the receiving dock workers at a regular delivery stop of mine has his desk covered with religious verses, crosses, a bible, etc... and he always says "God bless" when I leave. I've since talked with him about that over the years and it turns out he got himself into a lot of trouble as a young man with gangs. While in prison he got hooked up with some sort of program that brought him to Christianity and it's what drives him now. It changed his life and he now uses it to speak with other young men in gangs in an attempt to save their lives before they end up dead or in prison.

I know you can make the argument that non believers can also change people's lives for the good. You can also argue that religious people can blindly follow their faith and use it to make themselves feel better than others. There are good and bad people in any walk of life and religion is no different.

I'm saying alot to basically make the point that the idea of a higher power is comforting for a lot of people and it helps them cope with daily life. It can even help them do good in the world for others. And if it's a positive thing then why knock it? If I meet someone who is doing charity work dressed like a fairy I might think it's odd, but will commend them for helping others.

Okay, I'm ready for your response to make me look stupid

Do you believe that this perfect creator is due to a creator?

[I believe that] He exists, period, whether one believes or not. He believes in you, and exists for you; what you do (or don't do) with that is up to you.

The earth was round forever, while most everyone thought it was flat. No one had to prove it was round, it was always round.

As I posted above, God's existence is not a function of one's belief in God. God either exists or does not exist. Religion on the other hand is a function of what requirements a believer thinks a God imposes on them. Those requirements vary by religious sect and encompas the scope of human behavior. I side with those Board members who view belief in God or religion as a generally good thing. The reason some Board members disparage belief in God or one's adherence to religion probably has deeper roots than just an expository on this Board.

But if it's not about belief then why would any believe? As Capo has stated, there's no more proof of God than there is a flying spaghetti monster. So belief, or faith, has to be a factor.

I personally believe there are flying spaghetti monsters in space. I didn't before, but that's only because I'd never heard of them until this thread. I love the idea, so I now have faith that some where in the universe they exist. And why not?

Madonne! If you never existed, either flying spaghetti monsters would exist or they would not exist.