I've heard the phrase, "made my bones" numerous times, but I don't know what that means. Is it the same as being "made"? If so, what does that mean, too?

Also, how did non-Italians (or is it non-Sicilians?) become members of a family?

Thanks so much!

~~ Lollie

it is the same as being made into a family. You're now a member of the family and no one who is not a member of the family can't take advantage of you. You're recognized to be strictly with that family. Non-Italians can't be made, as you must be of 100 percent Sicilian heritage or Italian in order to become a made guy. Those guys who are not, are recongized as associates of the family.

If I recall correctly, Hyman Roth was a member of the Corleone family after Genco Olive Oil was opened in Little Italy, and he was of Polish descent. Although, in most families, anyone who is not of Neapolitan or Sicilian descent will be rejected.

Before you get "made" you must "make your bones" which normally means you have to commit murder

Making your bones is the step to becoming a made man, one in the same, yet two different acts. For instance, using Rocco Lampone from the Godfather as an example, Rocco made his bones by carrying out the hit on Paulie Gatto, which we are shown in the movie, "leave the guns, take the cannolis" scene. Now Rocco has made his bones by killing Paulie for the Corleones and then went through
( we are not shown this, but this is how it's done ) a ceremony where he sits with The Godfather, his sponser, and several other made men. During this ceremony he is required to take the oath of omerta, swearing that the "family" will be his first priority in his life, that he gives his ever lasting loyalty to the family, etc.
Years ago becoming a made man was know as the blood oath where you would slit your finger, the Don would slit his, and you and the Don would "mix" your blood together becoming "one", now becoming a part of the family, also know as " one of us."
Several above had said that you had to be 100% Sicilian to become a "made member" of a family, and that was true years ago. But the rules were softened here in this country, and it became that as long as you were 100% Italian with your Father being Sicilian, then you could become a made man. Then as the years passed, they relaxed the rules even more, where all that was required was that you be 100% Italian.

If you are really interested in how the oath of omerta is taken, the ceremonies, etc. I suggest that you read "The Valachi Papers" it is the story of Joseph Valachi, who was probably one of the first turncoats against the mob. He appeared on Television during his hearings and testimonies ( the hearings in GFII are based on Valachis real life hearings ) and he gave a pretty vivd detail of how the ceremony,for becoming a made member, is carried out. This is in the book.


Don Cardi

Let's be clear. Because the Mafia originated in Sicily, yes, at one time one had to be all Sicilian to be a "made" member. Of course, Cosa Nostra in America has had to adapt to the times because over the years it has proven difficult to find a sufficiant number of Sicilians to constitute Cosa Nostra's made membership. Also, Cosa Nostra has not wanted to pass up a good thing when it discovers an Italian who would benefit it who is not Sicilian. Frank Castello, for example, was Calabrese.

You may be "associated" with Cosa Nostra, but you are not a member. Hyman Roth, for example or Tom Hagen for that matter.

Yes Olivant, thanks for elaborating in regards to the time that you had to be 100% Sicilian up until the adjustments made in becoming a made member in America as time went on.

And as you said, you can be an Associate of Organized Crime just as Lansky and Siegal were. But I do believe that had Lansky and Siegal been Italians, ESPECIALLY Siegal, there would have been NO QUESTION that they would have been made men. TO further elaborate on becoming a made man in the mob, lets say for instance that I am a made man. You are not. You accompany me to a restaurant and we run into another made man. When I introduce you to the other made member, I must say " This is Olivant, a friend of MINE."
This way he knows that you are NOT a made man. If you were a made man, and I was introducing you to another made member, then I would say " This is Olivant, a friend of OURS " Then he would know that you are a made man just like him and I.


Don Cardi

I'm a little confused by something:

Several above had said that you had to be 100% Sicilian to become a "made member" of a family, and that was true years ago. But the rules were softened here in this country, and it became that as long as you were 100% Italian with your Father being Sicilian, then you could become a made man. Then as the years passed, they relaxed the rules even more, where all that was required was that you be 100% Italian.

Where you say, "...it became that as long as you were 100% Italian with your father being Sicilian, then you could become a made man....where all that was required was that you be 100% Italian."

Does that mean that in the first sentence, your father had to be 100% Italian (Sicilian or Calabrese) and in the second instance your mother could be 100% Italian (Sicilian or Calabrese)? If that is not correct, could you please elaborate a little more?

Thanks to everyone for your explanations! I find all of this so exciting and fascinating!

Someone also pointed out that Hyman Roth was Polish, but he was a Polish-Jew, which might have had even more differences since Jews are non-Christians.

Is that how things are done today?

In the book (sorry to bring up a question about the book, but it is relevant to this question) Don Vito refers to Sollozzo as an "infidel". Does this mean that he is not a made man? Or does it have other implications?

What would happen if, like today's times, a street gang or other organized crime group would come into a territory and business that was/is typically a part of the "Mafia's" territory. Does the rival group have to get permissions from the local Don? What happens if they don't?

~~ Lollie

Read my post above. To reiterate, the lack of a sufficient pool of 100% Sicilians compels the Cosa Nostra to admit non-Sicilian Italians in order to provide it with enough soldiers. But, they have to be Italian, period. For example, I believe that Vito Genovese was Neapolitan - from Naples. Both he and Frank Costello (a Calabrese) were two very talented Italians that the Cosa Nostra could not pass on just because they were not Sicilian. Al Capone was Napolitan also. But, whether or not he was really and truly a Cosa Nostra member is not clear. The Chicago Mob or Outfit has always operated somewhat differently from the other American families.

Vito referred to Sollozzo as an infidel because Sollozzo was known as the Turk because he had a wife and kids in Turkey. Since Turks are Muslim and Vito was Catholic (nominally), Vito referred to him as an infidel because that sometimes is one way, though a pejorative way, to refer to someone of another religion especially when that other religion as been something of a political or military opponent of your religion (the Crusades, for example).

As far as other gangs moving in on Mafia territory goes, it depends. The Westies in Manhattan caused havoc in that area of New York much of the time on Gambino family territory. Eventually, Paul Castellano as head of the Gambino family at the time made a deal with the Westies that permitted them to use his name and operate in that part of Mnhattan as long as they paid for the priviledge. The Mafia is not omnipotent. Today, they have to struggle in some cities against other ethnic gangs for their share of the pie. But, they have learned that cooperation is more profitable than the spilling of blood.

I don't know about that one Olivant! Where did you get that from?
Does it say that in the book? I think that his reference to Sollozo being an Infidel is in reference to Sollozo not being an Italian, and one who has a reputation for dealing in drugs. But please, enlighten me if I missed something or just don't recall that explaination in the book. Thanks!

Don Cardi

I had always thought it meant making your big splash, doing something that really gets you noticed and propels you onward and upward. For Rocco Lampone, this would be the whacking of Mr. Small Bills Cash not so much his going through the mafia ceremony. More like "you do this thing right, kid, you're gonna go places."

Don Cardi, how could you miss that one? In the novel Tom Hagen clearly tells Vito that he was called the Turk because he spent alot of time in Turkey, had a Turkish wife, and was known for expertise with a knife. It also says that given the way he looked he could have been taken for atrue Turk. With a name like Sollozzo, do you expect him to be anything except Italian.

As I stated in my post, infidel is a pejorative term that can be applied to anyone with whom one might have a serious disagreement or an alternative point of view. Since Sollozzo was Italian, the appellation of infidel was just Vito's way of expressing his dissatisfaction witht he man.

Montauk: making your bones has nothing to do with anything else except committing a murder at the behest of Mafia members to whom you want to prove your loyalty and quality.

I did not miss that one in the novel. I am fully aware of the part that Hagen tells Vito that he is known as the Turk. However in your other post you say that Vito called him an Infidel and go on to explain that it was for religious reasons! That is the part that I question you on, I remember the part about his being known as The Turk, but I do NOT recall the part that Vito refers to him as an Infidel. Not saying that you are wrong, I just cannot recall that term being used by Vito! Where is that term used by Vito in the book, and how does it apply to a religious reference? I would like to go back and read the part that Vito uses this term for Sollozo so that I can interpret his meaning myself. Thanks!


Don Cardi

This is very true now. One of the last of the real Mafia Dons, one of the last believers of La Cosa Nostra, one John Gotti, made this prediction when he was sent to prison. Read my signature. Man was he was right!

Don Cardi

Vito refers to Sollozzo as an infidel right at the end of his conversation with Tom and Sonny about the next day's meeting with Sollozzo when they are discussing why Sollozzo wants to meet with Vito. He asks Tom what time he is to meet with this infidel.

Again, infidel is an unflattering term that is usually used by religious people to refer to other religious people, in a pejorative sense.

Yes Olivnt, you are correct. The Don asks Hagen, on page 71 of the novel " What time do I have to meet this infidel tomorrow"

I know that the term Infidel is used mostly in religious references. However, in reading that verse and paragraph in the novel, I don't think that Vito meant it as a religious reference. That may be your interpretation, but my interpretation is that Vito called him this because Vito did not believe in dealing with drugs, and therefore referred to Sollozzo in that manner becasue Vito knew that Sollozo did not Believe in or share the same morals that he ( Vito) did in regards to the drug trade. For some reason I do not think that Vito would refer to and judge the man on his religious beliefs, but instead would judge the man on his beliefs in the area of mob business itself.

Don Cardi

Olivant, I think that Lollie has proven the both of us wrong. It just so happens that she posted over in another thread making reference to the same Infidel remark made by Vito about Sollozo! But her interpretation seems to make the most sense :


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posted March 12, By Lollie
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When describing Sollozzo to Don Vito, he tells him that... "He's spent a lot of time in Turkey and is supposed to have a Turkish wife and kids." But then in the very next paragraph he says, "Also he has an American wife and three children and he is a good family man." So, which is it? Does Sollozzo have two families? One in Turkey and one in the U.S. or is the wife the same: Turkish and American?

It is not long after these statements that Don Vito refers to Sollozzo as an "infidel". Do you think his marital situation could have anything to do with the Don's statement?

Thanks for your input.

~~ Lollie

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Here is my reply to Lollies post :

posted March 12, 2005 11:24 PM
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Lollie, you just resoved a debate over in The Godfather Thread! You are brilliant! Olivant and I have been debating as to why Vito made this remark about Sollozo, and I really think that you hit the nail right on the head! His marital situation, his disgust for any man's inifdelity towards his family!

Don Cardi

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What do you think Olivant?

Don Cardi

Aw shucks! I posted that in the other board because this is not the right board for discussing the book. I am happy that you saw it, though! Thanks for the compliment! Yes, now that you explain it--the Don was very, VERY committed to faithfulness on the part of the husband/father to his family and wife. So perhaps this is what the Don is referring.

~~ Lollie

Ya'll misunderstood my post about infidel. I expressed it as a religious pejorative only to provide an example of its use. As I said in one of my previous posts on the subject, Vito used infidel to express his dissatisfaction with Sollozzo. Such dissastisfaction could have subsumed Sollozzo's involvement with drugs, or his polygamy, or his association with the Tattaglia family, or all of the above.

We did not misunderstand your post Olivant! You specifically said :

Doesn't sound like an example to me! You distinctly define Vitos remark as making reference to Sollozo's religion being different than Vito's!

Lollie interpreted and summed it up better than both of us did. She kicked our asses on this one!


Don Cardi

Don Cardi: Really, thanks for the compliment again, but I was only guessing. As a matter of fact, I am still not sure if that part in the book refers to Sollozzo having two wives and children or if it means that his wife is both American and Turkish. The paragraph was not clear on this. But, it would answer the question of why Don Vito called him an infidel if he were to have two families. What a pig!

Anyway, Don C., I appreciate your comments!

~~ Lollie

No, that's not what I meant. I used the religion example to illustrate the use of the term infidel because it is in regard to religion that the term is most often used. Since Sollozzo and Vito were both Italian, one can presume that they were both Catholic if only nominally. Thus, it wouldn't make any sense for Vito to disparage Sollozzo's religious affiliation since it was the Don's affiliation also. But, because Sollozzo was so much associated with Turkey, a Muslim country, the Don, being Catholic, chose to use the pejorative term Infidel to refer to him.

If Vito was using the term Infidel to refer to Sollozzo's polyamy or his association with the Tattaglia family which was know for running prostitution, then he would have done so because he associated multiple wives and harem's with Muslims.

Olivant, with all due respect, I think back then Vito probably didn't even know what a muslim was!


Don Cardi

Don Corleone would have definitely known what a Muslim was. Sicily was occupied by Arabs centuries ago, and northern Italians disparagingly refer to Sicilians as "Arabs, not real Italians." The Don, a proud Sicilian, would have known this bit of history, and being highly moralistic would have looked on polygamy, which muslims practice as the act of infidels. I think the Don called him an infidel not because he was a Muslim, because Sollozzo was an Italian who took advantage of the Muslim practice of polygamy simply because it was expedient for him to do so.

Don Corleone left Sicily at the age of 8/9 years old. I hardly think that he knew about the Muslim history regarding Sicily, especially back in those days! Vito made the reference to Sollozo because of Sollozo's infidelity to his wife and children.

I am now moving this topic over to the Godfather Novel Thread as it pertains to what was written in the novel.


Don Cardi

Don Corleone would have known about it because he would have found out on his own. He was a self educated man.

Dontomasso,

We could go back and forth about this all day long, but in reality it is purely speculation on both our parts. I feel that Don Corleone made that statement because he frowned upon anyone who was not faithful to their family. He frownd upon Infidelity. He uses that word in describing Sollozo right after Tom tells him that he has a family in Turkey and one in America, and Tom goes on to say that Sollozo is known as a good family man. Vito's reply right after that includes the term Infidel, and in my humble opinion he used that word to tell Tom that although Tom described Sollozo as a good family man, he was not a good family man because of his INFIDELity to his wife back in Turkey. In Vito's mind, how can this man be a good family man if he has a wife back in the old country, and another here! Remember, Vito lost his whole family as a child, and therefore he grew up holding his own family in very high esteem. So anyone who did not treat their own family in the way that Vito treated his, was looked down upon by Vito. He even gets annoyed with his own Son when he is giving the " .. because a man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man..." speach to Johnny, but all the while meaning it for Sonny.

Sollozo was an Infidel in Vito's eyes because of his not being loyal to his wife and children. Not an infidel because of the muslim background. My opinion and interpretation.

Don Cardi

So, if I'm understanding you, in "Goodfellas" (separate example, I know) Henry did NOT make his bones with the Air France heist?

Just an insignificant correction, since we talk about novel, Vito was there 12 when his father was killed. Too close to manhood to live.