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Secret Regimes #482582
04/04/08 06:13 PM
04/04/08 06:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
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Lilo Offline OP
Lilo  Offline OP

Joined: Jan 2008
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When Michael and Vito are doing their "playing dead" trick, they disband Sonny's regime and refuse to allow Tessio or Clemenza to rebuild their own crews. Presumably Tessio's and Clemenza's crews are full of slightly older men and may be suffering morale or even desertion problems.

As discussed this is all to make their enemies underestimate them.
Behind the scenes they have Rocco building a secret regime.

Also (as mentioned more in the novel) Vito has transferred his political power to Michael, who may even have expanded it beyond what his father had. Vito thought that "political connections and power are worth ten regimes".

My questions (and I don't know if there is a "right" or "wrong" answer) are:

1) How in the world did the Corleone enemies not notice a new group of "qualified" men coalescing around Rocco? Maybe this would have gotten past Tattaglia but shouldn't Barzini have been paying closer attention? Where did all of these people come from? Trained killers have to get started somewhere. Also how was the Corleone hierarchy paying these men?

2) How did the political power translate into the crushing of the Corleone enemies? Could it be that Corleone judges or police revoked licenses to operate or ignored murder investigations?

Thoughts?


"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."
Winter is Coming

Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
Re: Secret Regimes [Re: Lilo] #482583
04/04/08 06:23 PM
04/04/08 06:23 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
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Turnbull Offline
Turnbull  Offline

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 Originally Posted By: Lilo
1) How in the world did the Corleone enemies not notice a new group of "qualified" men coalescing around Rocco? Maybe this would have gotten past Tattaglia but shouldn't Barzini have been paying closer attention?

He wasn't paying attention--he was too busy underestimating Michael.
 Quote:
Where did all of these people come from? Trained killers have to get started somewhere. Also how was the Corleone hierarchy paying these men?

"Regime" implies substantial numbers, but Rocco's secret regime needn't have been very big. Michael may have had him recruit a small number of reliable men to be kept in reserve "just in case" both caporegimes defected, or to do specialized jobs. As we saw, Rocco and someone else we hadn't seen before did the job on Tat and his hooker.

 Quote:
2) How did the political power translate into the crushing of the Corleone enemies? Could it be that Corleone judges or police revoked licenses to operate or ignored murder investigations?


Puzo and FFC were never specific about why Michael needed all of Vito's political contacts "wired into him" when he was planning to move the family westward. My guess is that Michael needed political protection to avoid being arrested or prosecuted in the aftermath of the Great Massacre, as well as to have them in place for his successor, Clemenza.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Secret Regimes [Re: Turnbull] #482675
04/05/08 12:57 PM
04/05/08 12:57 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
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Texas
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olivant Offline
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The novel answers several of your questions.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Secret Regimes [Re: olivant] #482680
04/05/08 02:42 PM
04/05/08 02:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
Lilo Offline OP
Lilo  Offline OP

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
IIRC, the novel doesn't go into details about what Rocco's men were doing or how they were making their money. All that was said about it was a discussion with Tom, Vito and Mike in which Tom pointed out that everyone that Rocco recruited had to be reported to Tom and that Tom noticed that Rocco's people were getting more money than their supposed jobs called for.

It's just a curiosity of mine. Barzini may have been smarter than Sonny and even Tom but he wasn't more cunning than Vito and Mike. I still think he should have noticed something unusual, unless as suggested Rocco's new "regime" was very small.


"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."
Winter is Coming

Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
Re: Secret Regimes [Re: Lilo] #482686
04/05/08 03:49 PM
04/05/08 03:49 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,020
Texas
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olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
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Texas
Well, it probably was small since there were only two other Corleone capos and those two capos could muster as many as 1,000 soldiers. As it turned out in the novel and the film, Rocco's regime wasn't used for much.

Why would Barzini notice anything? Again, as the novel points out, and as a deleted scene in the Saga illustrates, only Tom found out about Rocco's regime. How would anyone else find out? There's noting to indicate that anyone was "coalescing" around Rocco. I'll bet Rocco didn't place an ad in the newspaper.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Secret Regimes [Re: olivant] #482694
04/05/08 05:23 PM
04/05/08 05:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
Lilo Offline OP
Lilo  Offline OP

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
 Originally Posted By: olivant
Well, it probably was small since there were only two other Corleone capos and those two capos could muster as many as 1,000 soldiers. As it turned out in the novel and the film, Rocco's regime wasn't used for much.


Per the novel Rocco's regime (along with Clemenza's) was "turned loose" on all of the infiltrators of the Corleone domains. More than a few people were dealt with. Also Michael had reduced the size of the Tessio and Clemenza regimes without rebuilding the Sonny crew. Neither the novel nor the movie describes the new size of the Corleone Family before the revealing of the Rocco regime, but it's much less than 1000 members. Tessio and Clemenza are concerned about losing everything, which strongly suggests they are in dire need of manpower.

 Originally Posted By: olivant

Why would Barzini notice anything? Again, as the novel points out, and as a deleted scene in the Saga illustrates, only Tom found out about Rocco's regime. How would anyone else find out? There's noting to indicate that anyone was "coalescing" around Rocco. I'll bet Rocco didn't place an ad in the newspaper.


It's a point worth considering IMO that the people who get ahead and stay ahead in such a business make a point out of noticing things like that. Barzini had at least Carlo and later Tessio on his side. He could have picked something up. But he just wasn't smart or suspicious enough. He should have listed all the "players" in the Corleone family and had some idea of their capacity. We know that in real life the Families watch each other quite closely for recruitment and ensure that relative sizes remain roughly the same.

As I mentioned earlier, Rocco's crew was being trusted to plan and flawlessly execute a surprise attack that would in part re-establish Corleone hegemony in NY. The people who can do things like that either have done them before or are well known within the underworld to have the capacity to do things like that.

There is not a "right" or "wrong" answer or even one answer to this IMO. The book and novel do not address it.
But however many men Rocco had around him, whether it was ten or one hundred an intelligent opposition should have investigated it.


"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."
Winter is Coming

Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
Re: Secret Regimes [Re: Lilo] #482710
04/05/08 06:11 PM
04/05/08 06:11 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,514
AZ
Turnbull Offline
Turnbull  Offline

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Posts: 19,514
AZ
 Originally Posted By: Lilo

It's a point worth considering IMO that the people who get ahead and stay ahead in such a business make a point out of noticing things like that. Barzini had at least Carlo and later Tessio on his side. He could have picked something up. But he just wasn't smart or suspicious enough.

He was slippin'. ;\)


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Secret Regimes [Re: Turnbull] #482781
04/06/08 08:18 AM
04/06/08 08:18 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
Lilo Offline OP
Lilo  Offline OP

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
 Originally Posted By: Turnbull
 Originally Posted By: Lilo

It's a point worth considering IMO that the people who get ahead and stay ahead in such a business make a point out of noticing things like that. Barzini had at least Carlo and later Tessio on his side. He could have picked something up. But he just wasn't smart or suspicious enough.

He was slippin'. ;\)


Indeed!!! \:D


"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."
Winter is Coming

Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
Re: Secret Regimes [Re: Lilo] #482802
04/06/08 12:03 PM
04/06/08 12:03 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,020
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,020
Texas
Sonny's regime was disbanded and its soldiers were distributed among Tessio's and Clemenza's regimes. Since each one of them started out with about 500 soldiers each, do the math. Mike's subsequent reduction of the strength of their regimes is indeterminant.

Apparently, Rocco's regime was used to carry out the assassination of the five families heads and to recover Corleone hegemony over certain NY territories previously lost to other families: to wit, a limited purpose for that regime for which not many soldiers were necessary.

If Barzini was prescient enough to discover that Rocco was building a regime, then he was prescient enough to discover Mike's intended use of that regime. If prescient at all, apparently it did not rise to the required threshhold.


Last edited by olivant; 04/06/08 12:04 PM.

"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Secret Regimes [Re: Lilo] #1035175
05/28/22 09:02 PM
05/28/22 09:02 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
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Evita Offline
Underboss
Evita  Offline
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Underboss
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 560
Heads-up for Rocco ringside seat at the fish tank scene

Wonder he tipped Clemenza off they are planning something big that are gonna solve all our problems and answer all our questions
Be patient That's all I can tell you now...

Re: Secret Regimes [Re: Evita] #1035229
05/31/22 12:02 AM
05/31/22 12:02 AM
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Posts: 758
Australia
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Lana Offline
The Hunted One
Lana  Offline
The Hunted One
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 758
Australia
Rocco was always smarter Rocco knew it's not a smart move! to tip Clemenza off
Rocco well he -- he played this one beautifully

Rocco built a secret regime and kept it a secret as well


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