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Re: WHY DIDNT THEY GO AFTER HAGEN? [Re: pizzaboy] #433430
09/10/07 10:17 PM
09/10/07 10:17 PM
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Turnbull Offline
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There are several questions floating around this interesting thread:
First, as Olivant said, the hearing was a Senate investigation, not a grand jury; and in the pre-RICO days, it was not, strictly speaking, against the law to be a consigliere. In fact, unless a specific charge was leveled against the Don or a member of his family, it wasn't against the law to be in the Mafia. In fact, there was no way to stop any lawyer from representing an accused person in any kind of proceeding unless the lawyer had been disbarred or convicted of a crime.
Second, putting Tom's photo in the chart as consigliere was an attempt by the committee to show his connection to Michael and his criminal enterprise--no doubt about it. But, if you look at the photo of the chart on p. 216 of Lebo's book, you'll see that there are no footnotes under Hagen's name connecting him to specific criminal activities, such as shylocking, drugs, criminally receiving, etc.--just a FBI file #. Presumably, if Michael had gone down on the perjury charges, maybe the committee and the federal prosecutors would have started working on Tom, Fredo, Rocco, Neri, etc. But Michael was the target at that point.
Third, Cicci had a choice: to remain silent and honor omerta, or do what he did, which was to break omerta. He told things about the family that were supposed to be secret. Even though he didn't directly implicate Michael ("I never talked to him"), he said that Michael was "the head of the family." That one phrase in itself could have damaged Michael's legitimate front.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: WHY DIDNT THEY GO AFTER HAGEN? [Re: Turnbull] #433500
09/11/07 07:20 AM
09/11/07 07:20 AM
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Well I cannot argue with the fact that he broke Omerta. And we all know what the penalty for breaking Omerta was.

So in truth, FFC dropped the ball by not including Willie Cicci in Michael's quest to get revenge on all of his enemies.



Don Cardi cool

Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.




Re: WHY DIDNT THEY GO AFTER HAGEN? [Re: Don Cardi] #433529
09/11/07 09:48 AM
09/11/07 09:48 AM
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With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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Several people have made the point this was a Senate hearing, and not a trial. That being the case, the scope of inquiry is far broader, and issues like relevance do not mean much. The whole point of many of these hearings (aside from allowing Senators to grandstand) is to ferret out information about a panpoly of things. These hearings were about "the mafia" with Michael Corleone as the big fish. So why they would have Tom on their poster, and do nothing to besmirch him remains curious.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: WHY DIDNT THEY GO AFTER HAGEN? [Re: dontomasso] #433533
09/11/07 09:59 AM
09/11/07 09:59 AM
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Don Cardi Offline
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 Originally Posted By: dontomasso
Several people have made the point this was a Senate hearing, and not a trial. That being the case, the scope of inquiry is far broader, and issues like relevance do not mean much. The whole point of many of these hearings (aside from allowing Senators to grandstand) is to ferret out information about a panpoly of things. These hearings were about "the mafia" with Michael Corleone as the big fish. So why they would have Tom on their poster, and do nothing to besmirch him remains curious.


Exactly ONE of the points that I was trying to make.



Don Cardi cool

Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.




Re: WHY DIDNT THEY GO AFTER HAGEN? [Re: Don Cardi] #433534
09/11/07 10:01 AM
09/11/07 10:01 AM
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pizzaboy Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Don Cardi
Well I cannot argue with the fact that he broke Omerta. And we all know what the penalty for breaking Omerta was.

So in truth, FFC dropped the ball by not including Willie Cicci in Michael's quest to get revenge on all of his enemies.


Nor did he avenge the Rosato brothers. I've always felt that was the biggest "loose end" that needed tying up.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: WHY DIDNT THEY GO AFTER HAGEN? [Re: pizzaboy] #433548
09/11/07 10:29 AM
09/11/07 10:29 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
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With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline OP
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 Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
 Originally Posted By: Don Cardi
Well I cannot argue with the fact that he broke Omerta. And we all know what the penalty for breaking Omerta was.

So in truth, FFC dropped the ball by not including Willie Cicci in Michael's quest to get revenge on all of his enemies.


Nor did he avenge the Rosato brothers. I've always felt that was the biggest "loose end" that needed tying up.



Good points, and no one can say this has to do with "cinematic license" or jamming the plot with too much storyline. A hit on Cicci and the Rosatos could have easily been shown montage style, as in GF I, and it would have nicely tied things up.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: WHY DIDNT THEY GO AFTER HAGEN? [Re: pizzaboy] #433711
09/11/07 01:31 PM
09/11/07 01:31 PM
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AZ
Turnbull Offline
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 Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
 Originally Posted By: Don Cardi
Well I cannot argue with the fact that he broke Omerta. And we all know what the penalty for breaking Omerta was.

So in truth, FFC dropped the ball by not including Willie Cicci in Michael's quest to get revenge on all of his enemies.


Nor did he avenge the Rosato brothers. I've always felt that was the biggest "loose end" that needed tying up.

...especially since, in the penultimate boathouse scene, Tom mentions the Rosatos in the same context as Roth: "Roth and the Rosatos are on the run...do you have to kill everyone?"
Tom was exaggerating for effect at that point. But we could have inferred that the Rosatos were on the list--we just didn't get to see them whacked. The same might have applied to Cicci.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: WHY DIDNT THEY GO AFTER HAGEN? [Re: Turnbull] #433783
09/11/07 03:10 PM
09/11/07 03:10 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
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With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline OP
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But we WANT to see them wacked!

I would imagine Cicci was doing time in a regular prison, so he may have been shot by a police officer, or hanged himself in his jail cell, or just got struck by a bolt of lightning.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: WHY DIDNT THEY GO AFTER HAGEN? [Re: dontomasso] #433805
09/11/07 03:55 PM
09/11/07 03:55 PM
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 Originally Posted By: dontomasso
But we WANT to see them wacked!

I would imagine Cicci was doing time in a regular prison, so he may have been shot by a police officer, or hanged himself in his jail cell, or just got struck by a bolt of lightning.


Or a poisoned jailhouse baloney sandwich, a la Connie.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: WHY DIDNT THEY GO AFTER HAGEN? [Re: pizzaboy] #433831
09/11/07 05:07 PM
09/11/07 05:07 PM
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olivant Offline
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... or simply written out of the script.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: WHY DIDNT THEY GO AFTER HAGEN? [Re: Turnbull] #434159
09/12/07 12:29 PM
09/12/07 12:29 PM
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Don Cardi Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Turnbull


But we could have inferred that the Rosatos were on the list--we just didn't get to see them whacked.



Yeah. FFC could have given us a quick scene showing Carmine Rosatto getting whacked while celebrating his birthday in a restaurant. ;\)



Don Cardi cool

Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.




Re: WHY DIDNT THEY GO AFTER HAGEN? [Re: Don Cardi] #434229
09/12/07 01:44 PM
09/12/07 01:44 PM
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dontomasso Offline OP
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 Originally Posted By: Don Cardi
 Originally Posted By: Turnbull


But we could have inferred that the Rosatos were on the list--we just didn't get to see them whacked.



Yeah. FFC could have given us a quick scene showing Carmine Rosatto getting whacked while celebrating his birthday in a restaurant. ;\)


Two shots to the head, and stick a C note in his mouth.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

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