Christmas is NOT ONLY a RELIGOUS event. In fact, Dec 25th was once a pagan holiday celebrating the turning of the seasons, a new year, and a hope and thanks for another yr survived. When the Roman church rose to power they used Dec 25th to celebrate Christ's birthday(even though its in March) b/c Dec 25th was already a Germanic holiday and the Romans thought it might be easier to incorporate this new holiday if it were the same day as an old holiday.

Of course the christmas tree and lots of other christmas traditions we celebrate were founded in Germany waaaaaay before the emergence of Christianity in Europe or Rome.

My whole life I have said both happy holidays and merry christmas. I haven't had anything kosher thrown at my head yet!

EDIT-I also say Happy Festivus, a holiday created by one Frank Costanza.

sure! I think I'm going to celebrate Roman Saturnalia as well. Romans got plenty of pagan festivities, you know. We are spoilt for choice.

There are lots of ppl, in America especially, who have no religous affilliation at all but wear Santa hats and say ho ho ho all December long. I'm just making the point that most don't actually celebrate the particular religous aspect of the holiday. They celebrate the turning of the seasons, the spirit of harvest and giving, the beautiful winter, a new yr, and lots of other aspects of the holiday that don't necessarily coincide with the Judeo-religous connotations that were attached by the Roman Catholic Church. This was a holiday long before this Jesus Christ character came into the picture, and if he had not come into the picture we would still have the same zest and zeal for Dec 25th day.

EDIT--Sleigh bells, 'Santa Claus', reindeer, mistletoe, and sacrificial trees were all Germanic aspects of Dec 25th day BEFORE Jesus Christ came along.

I'm not offended if thats the connection you make, but he was born in March.

Again, the holiday goes back way before Jesus Christ and so do most of the traditions that are associated w/ today's celebration.
The common themes of the holiday like gift giving, Santa, trees, etc, were around long before Dec 25th had anything to do with christ.

Jesus Christ is not in my holiday theme b/c that tends to alienate non-christians from the holiday, but I still say merry christmas.

Maybe you are using this word without any malice no matter how unpleasant it may sound to me, so I apologize in advance if I'm totally wrong here....but just in case.....this Jesus Christ character? He's not a character, He's the son of God, the Saviour, for those who believe in Him, so please show a little more respect.



I strongly dissent. Had He not come, the pagan festivity would have vanished as most of others. It's Christ who made Christmas. It's indeed the religious (you must have a very strong dislike even for the word, since you never happen to spell it correctly! :p) event and meaning attached to the pagan background which saved the pagan festivity from oblivion.



they are in fact just external aspects of the festivity. But it's the spiritual dimension Christianity gave to them which makes Christmas such a special event. Without a spiritual meaning they would be hollow. As unfortunately they are for many people today.

The Saviour of what,he hasn't saved me from anything.

If you bothered to read me I said "the Saviour for those who believe in Him". Oh, and I believe He came to save everyone from their sins. Even you.

Interesting. I would love to know more about this. Can you please elaborate? Can you please provide us with some factually written proof or examples?

Note : it is common knowledge throughout the Christian world that december is not the exact birth time of Jesus. But that is not the issue at hand because even if it were in march, we'd still be having this discussion anyway.


Don Cardi

You bet, DC! Besides, if it were in March, we'd have Christmas in March. What's the difference?

Three months. But the meaning for us would still be the same.


Don Cardi

I couldn't agree with you more, Lavinia.

For those who believe in Him. Exactly, couldn't have said it better myself. Wait, I could. For those who believe in his divine aspects.

For others like me, he's just a man, who had exceptional capacities. A man, who should be placed in the line of other Great Rebels/People.

Enzo, you are certainly entitled to your beliefs, and no one should tell you that you are wrong in what you believe in or that you should not believe that way. You are entitled to celebrate the birth of Christ, or if you chose not to, then that is your right also.

But understand that while he may just be a great man to you, to others, like myself, he is the messiah and saviour who preformed miracles while here on earth and continues to be the almighty one. And this is why we, as Christian believers, embrace Christmas, the birth of Jesus Christ, as a very special day for us.

As Lavinia said, show some respect.


Merry Christmas



Don Cardi

But I do.

I deeply respect everyone who believes in a worthful religion, and everything it stands for. Just like most religious people, like yourself, respect my being a non-believer and my view on religion (which is not agnostic, not atheistic, nor believer; but that's a whole different matter).

Where was I ever disrespectful towards Jesus, Christianity, or it's believers?
If someone perceived it that way, my apologies.

Edit: Maybe you meant this

That was because believing in Jesus, meant as believing he just existed, is irrelevant. It is almost certainly scientifically proven that Jesus did exist.
The thing believers believe in, making it thus a matter of opinion, are his divine aspects, which transcend him above a human.

Actually I meant this :






Don Cardi

The commercial aspects of Christmas are apalling. Every year it seems to start earlier and earlier. I've gotta say I have received so much crap this year as "gifts" from people who should be spending their money more wisely than I can begin to tell anyone. I also have to give crap to other people, and tips to janitors, doormen, etc etc ad nauseum. I don't know what any of this has to do with the birth of Jesus. As Kinky Friedman put it, the Jews didn't kill Jesus, Santa Claus did.

I am not completely sold by the idea that this is a religious thing more than it is a huge commercial sham. I've been a Catholic all my life. I am a lector in my church, I went to Catholic shool through the 12th grade and you know what? No one has ever said Happy Pentacost, Merry Feast of the Immaculate Conception,or Joyous Ascension Day. I never got a present for the Feast of The Assumption, and I never gave anyone a tip cause it was Good Friday (or even Easter for that matter).

DonT -

You are not off base in saying that Christmas has been turned into a commercial holiday. It sickens me also that right after Halloween, the stores start promoting Christmas. We must remind ourselves what Christmas really means to people like you and I, and should not allow the commercialism to take away the true spirit of Christmas.

The corporations are the ones attempting to take the Christ our of Christmas. For them, it's all about money and nothing else.

I don't apologize, to believe in what I believe in. And I refused -- to be a fool -- dancing on the string, held by all those -- corporate money hungry bigshots. I don't apologize -- keeping the true spirit of Christmas is what's important.


Don Cardi

I knew Don Geoff would have to go through all this and Partagas, well --- he was --- but I never wanted this for you. Father Don Cardi, Bishop Don Cardi, Pope Don Cardi.....

Being only 21 I don't have much knowledge of this, but I remember a time when stores would start decorating for Christmas on the days following Thanksgiving. But I remember in my last job they started decorating a few weeks BEFORE Thanksgiving....even going as far as having Christmas items discounted BEFORE Christmas.

DC I just meant that DEC 25th was a holiday several centuries before JC. People in Germania were riding around in sleighs cutting down poor trees and stealing kisses underneath the mistletoe during the winter month that came to be known as December WAAAAAAY before the Roman church decided to stick Jesus Christ in the holiday. As I said, the holiday was meant to give a prayer for the long winter months ahead and a thanks for another yr survived. I'm not sure which facts you want factually written proof of, this is all encyclopedia.

NOTE: Christmas in March would be a different holiday all togethor. The greatest aspect of Christmas in December is the winter joy, this winter joy in December was celebrated centuries before Christ and I think it would still be celebrated even if there had been no Christ.

I don't want to make a big thing out of this but myself and some others happen to think that the guy who sold me a piece of peanut brittle this morning is the son of god, are you going to respect that? Using Socratic logic we have just as much right to claim the peanut brittle vendor as you claim the jesus.

EDIT--I have no problems with those who celebrate Jesus Christ as the son of God. Just show respect to those who do not.

Bah humbug!! Bah humbug!! Bah humbug!!

What is wrong with people giving you gifts? Or you giving people gifts?

[quote=Ice
EDIT--I have no problems with those who celebrate Jesus Christ as the son of God. Just show respect to those who do not. [/quote]

I do show respect, but you don't show respect for Christians by referring to "this Jesus Christ character."

There are at least FIVE celebrations within a one-week period: Christmas, Yule/Solstice, Hannukah, Kwanzaa, and Humanlight. All of these are holidays taken seriously by their celebrants, even if only one is a "majority" holiday. I think it is nice to recognize that there are other people out there celebrating, too. I regard "Season's greetings" or "Have a good holiday" to those whom I know not to be Christians a matter of respect and good manners.

And yes, modern Christmas is a mix of mostly pagan and heavy duty corporate influenced symbols. If Christmas must be turned back into a Christian holiday again as it was "originally intended", then just go, "Good idea, get rid of all those horrible Pagan influences that corrupted it, like yule logs, lit-up evergreen trees, garland, mistletoe, giving wrapped gifts, etc"

Thank you, thank you very much, my point exactly.

EDIT-You really should come around more often Salad.

I read someplace that Jesus was actually born in July. I think some historian came up with this because of the timing of the Roman census. Does anyone have any information about this?

In my freshman year in high school, I remember learning that scientists had determined that a great celestial event that occurs every few hundred years, the name of which escapes me, occurred over a few days and would have been prominent in Judea in late April in either 4 or 6 A.D.

Early accounts from several sources identified Jesus' birth coinciding with this event. Some think the Gospel of Matthew's account of a star over Bethlehem refers to this event.

I have read that Luke mentions that the Roman census was also taking place and that Romans did not take census during the winter months.

The Bible doesn't give a date (or even year, but that's a different subject) for Christ's birth. The modern dates of Jesus birth fit in well dates with the dates of Sun worship (winter solstice -- Rome declared December 25th as The Birthday of the Invincible Sun).

The Bible does give some climate data and the phrase shephards "watching their flocks in the fields at night" indicating anytime between April to October for Jesus's birth. No where near December.

Reading 'The Davinci Code' made me research this topic a bit and all of the possible dates I could find were no where near December.

Quote:

Originally Posted By: klydon1

[quote=Ice
EDIT--I have no problems with those who celebrate Jesus Christ as the son of God. Just show respect to those who do not.

I do show respect, but you don't show respect for Christians by referring to "this Jesus Christ character."

Am I offended by ppl who don't believe that science says the bible is wrong? Of course not.

And if they called me "this scientific observation character" I would not be offended at that either.

I don't have to show Jesus any respect when I am alone or around other Christians. While I personally would not disrespect Jesus in the presence of Christians there are those who would and they have the right. They have the right to disrespect him when they are alone OR in the presence of Christians b/c religion has been forced down ppl's throats throughout history. If Christians practiced it on their own time and did not try to 'convert' others as the bible instructs them then they would be free from insults.....As is they have pissed a lot of ppl off and so now we have guys wearing a 'Jesus is a c*nt' shirt.