You've got a good point Blibble. It's been merry christmas for most of the past 2,000 years. Suddenly you've got a bunch of wimps that are so offended, the poor things. I bet even the guys among them wear dresses.

MERRY CHRISTMAS

happy holiday


Jesus is the reason for the season!



Don Cardi

Christmas is a religious holiday?

You're always welcome in my house, SC. For any reason, and for any and every holiday.

Btw, beef well done?? I don't thinks so. We prefer steak tartare.

I'm a born Muslim. I've attended protestant's church. I've had some Jewish friends over my relative's house for the Labor Day BBQ. And I've many atheist friends. I've never been sure what I'm, but one thing I know is that I like a reasonable debate about such issues.

I disagree with you SB. I don't think you've to be a Catholic to fully celebrate the birth of Christ. It is a birthday party, and all are invited. Who's there to say who really celebrates the true meaning of a holiday and who does not? If we don't keep an open mind, is there hope for changes in opinions?

I don't care what the cause for a celebration is, and as long as it is in good spirit, whether it is passing of Hebrews from the Nile River or the birth of Christ, I don't see why people can't truly celebrate it. I don't care if by your measures I don't fully celebrate the birth of Christ, I do it anyway. Although I've doubts that Jesus was God (I've doubts about every single thing I've been told in the context of religion), I still respect him for being one of the greatest prophets. And of course the Passover is the story of good prevailing evil, so myth or fact; it is a celebration for a good cause.

One doesn't need anyone's approval if he celebrates the true meaning of any of these events. I think we need more tolerance, both from those who get offended left and right by the way they are being greeted in such a good spirit, and those who pick on everybody else's way of celebrating holidays, accusing them of commercializing it. Let everyone celebrate however they like it.

If you have doubts that Jesus is God, then you cannot truely celebrate the "True Meaning" of Christmas because as you yourself said you recognize Jesus as being only a prophet, and that it is just a prophets birthday. Can you pertake in the celebration with those who are true believers in the spiritual meaning of Christmas? Of course you can, but you won't be doing so for the same reasons that they are. Religious meanings of Christmas and their sprititual beliefs of Christmas.

To a Christian believer ( I don't like using denomonational names such as Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, etc.) the true meaning is that The Messiah was born, Christ the Saviour was born.

And this is where I think the misunderstanding comes into play.

SB, or myself for that matter, is not telling ANYONE that they cannot partake in a Christmas dinner, a traditional exchanging of the gifts ( which by the way also has some religious significance that I won't get into) decorating, etc., but only that those who are non believers really cannot celebrate in spirit the true meaning of what a believer knows Christmas really represents in their own faith.

I go to a Hebrew Brisk. In order to enter the Synagogue I am asked to put a Yamakule on my head. Am I a believer in what this ceremony represents religiously? No I am not. Am I wearing the Yamakule because I believe in it's religious significance? No I am not.

I am wearing the Yamakule and partaking in the ceremony out of respect for my Jewish friend and his religion. I partake because my friend thinks enough of me and has honored me by asking for my presence at what HE believes to be a very religious act according to HIS faith. Am I partaking in the celebration, yes I am, but not for what it's religious significance really stands for, but more so out of joy and out of respect of the celebration. So therefore I am not spiritually celebrating the religious meaning of the Brisk, but I am physically celebrating the fact that it is of religious significance to my friend and his beliefs.

What I really think that this all comes down to is how the word "celebrate" is being used here. Non believers celebrate the traditional acts that go along with Christmas. Believers celebrate the spiritual meaning which we believe has provided us with those traditional acts. And the difference is that we believe in the religious meanings behind those acts that we partake in on Christmas.



Don Cardi

I don't need someone else's approval or their analysis of my spiritual state, in which I celebrate. We could have doubts and disagreements about the qualities a person has, and we both can celebrate his birth. You might not approve of what I believe about him, and I might not agree with what you believe, but I too can have my share of spiritual celebration just as you can, even if it is different than yours.

Remember, we all have been told what we believe in and I don't see how anyone can be 100% sure which one of them is the right one. I'd rather see people gather together for a good cause, than be separated by those who analyze other's beliefs. Yes, I don't celebrate for the reasons you do. Who's there to say which one of them is the true reason and which one is not?

OK, its a dirty job but I'll do it.

I knew I can always count on you SC!

RIGHT ON!----EXCELLENT POST DON,
And I would like to take this time and Wish GBB

"A VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A VERY HEALTHY HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Afs -

You totally missed the WHOLE point of my post. I did not ever say that I don't approve of who you believe that Christ is. I never said that your beliefs are wrong and mine are right or visa versa. I merely was trying to differenciate why a practicing participant in a certain religion with certain beliefs might spiritually celebrate their religious holiday versus someone who is not a practicing participant of that religion but still chooses to partake in that religious holiday even though they don't believe in the other religion's spiritual meaning of it. Just explaining what Christmas means to the Christian people.

I don't know what it is, but whenever we talk about relgious cultures and the different beliefs, and someone replies to a post that you make, right away you go on the defensive and assume that the person who replied to you is questioning what you believe in or telling you that what you believe in is wrong. No one here even hinted that what you believe is wrong

Perhaps I can enlighten you and help you to understand what the spiritual meaning for Christmas is to Christian believers and why some of the things that we do at Christmas are not just things, but have a spiritual meaning to them.

Many put up a fur tree because it symbolizes the everalsting hope of mankind and his thoughts towards heaven, all year round.

The star on top of the tree represents the star that led the three wisemen to the infant Jesus. It represents guidance given by God and the fulfillment of the promise that God would provide the world with a saviour.

The candles and Christmas lights are a reminder that Christ is the light of the world, and that our saviour replaces the darkness with light.

The wreath symbolizes the continuing love that Jesus has for us.

The tree ornament represents the feelings of good will that Christ has taught us to show towards our fellow man.

The Holly that is hung represents Christs immortality and the crown of thorns that He wore.

And the gift giving, the most important act of Christmas, is done to remid us that God gave us the ultimate gift when he gave the world his only begotten son.

I don't post these explainations with the attempt to get you to believe in these things. I only post them with the hope that you will have a better understanding as to why there is such a deep spiritual meaning for Christians when we celebrate Christmas and all that comes with it.








Don Cardi

I think this makes the point. While we can all join in and celebrate feast days of multiple cultures, we do so on different levels.

An analogy could be watching the Super Bowl. You go to the party, watch the game with friends, and have a fun time. If your favorite team is playing in the game and wins, it is more meaningful to you than for someone whose team didn't make the game even though he decided to root for the team that won.

Please don't think that I'm comparing holy days to football games. Just an analogy.

May all enjoy the festivities of the season peacefully, joyfully and safely.

Well said my friend, well said.




Don Cardi

Jesus never taught that he was God.

DC, we already know the reason for our celebration is different, but here's what you said:



And of course, I asked you, who's there to say which one is the true meaning, which you dodged answering.

I celebrate miraculous birth of a person who was born from a virgin mother touched by no man and talked in the cradle. You celebrate birth of God and savior. I put a question mark on what I believe and what you do as I'm not sure which one of them is right, or even if they are both just heartwarming stories. Nonetheless, I think everyone can celebrate for a good cause, even if they disagree about the meanings and origin.


Still, you told me I couldn't truly celebrate the "True Meaning" of Christmas. Well, stop me. Merry Christmas!

Right Jesus is the Son Of God!

Sorry, Afs, obviously we must agree to disagree. To a Christian, Christmas means celebrating the birth of Jesus, God's own son, and our Savior. If you don't embrace that belief, then you can't celebrate the true meaning of Christmas, IMO. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't want to learn, enjoy, and respect the beliefs of others.

Where is it written that Jesus was born on December 25th?

He wasn't. The Church selected this date in the 4th Century. Many scholars beleve that Jesus was born between whatwe now know as late April and early May around the years of 4-6 A.D.

I'm glad we celebrate when we do though.

As long as you put "IMO" at the end of that sentence, I'm okay with it, as you are entitled to your opinion. But to come out and just say I couldn't celebrate the true meaning of a holiday, as if you own that holiday and you are in charge of approval and analysis of how someone celebrates and if they celebrate the true meaning of that event or not is not acceptable; since you are not God and neither I'm.

First of all, Afs, you should know me better than that. When did I ever play God?? I state my opinion and at times I've done so vigorously, but I have never attempted to force my beliefs down anyone's throat. They are my beliefs and nothing more. And for you to imply that I am intolerant of anyone else's beliefs is rather insulting, or that I would attempt to own something as sacred as Christ's message of love and acceptance, is really insulting.

Klydon1 summed it up best. And I think that in the spirit of Christmas, we all should leave it at that.

Don Cardi

Having been raised celebrating Christmas, being around family friends who celebrate, and in my school years always had Christmas plays with even religious songs, it's just a natural thing to me to say "Merry Christmas." :/Of course there are many different beliefs and celebrations, but I tend to think this Merry Christmas/Happy Holiday thing is totally blown out of porportion. I always wish people a Merry Christmas and am sure I always will. To my knowledge, I haven't insulted or hurt anyone' feelings. If I knew beforehand someone didn't celebrate Christmas of course I wouldn't extend that greeting. I think generally the majority of people are much less sensitive about it than we are being led to believe thru media.

A few years back at my school I wished one of our teachers, as he was passing by a Merry Christmas. He kindly said thank you but, "I don't celebrate Christmas, for me it's Hannakah (sp). We started talking and knowing next to nothing about the Jewish faith, I asked him if (for in the future, so I'd know), "Happy" Hannakah was the proper greeting. We talked for a while, and he proceeded to tell me about this celebration. I learned a little bit of another faith that I didn't know. No sensitive and/or hard feelings at all.

Another time one of our students came in with an article of clothing that maybe was a robe (it was wrapped in a large bag.) One of the teacher's was having some kind of ethnic "show and tell" type thing in her class and the girl asked if she could keep it in the office because she didn't want to carry around until last period. I told her sure she could and I took the bag and started to put it on the floor with other student's projects that had been turned in for other classes. She quickly, in somewhat of a demanding voice said, "no no, don't put it on the floor." At first I thought she was being a little defiant, but something told me from her face that wasn't the case. I said to her, "oh, is this a religious symbol or belief? Is that why it can't go on the floor?" She looked relieved as she nodded and said "yes." I said "sure, I'll put it right here on the table then." Again, I might not understand and in some cases agree with all religions/beliefs, but surely we can all respect everyone elses. I think most people do, don't you?


TIS

When I was told I can't celebrate the true meaning of Christmas. How does anyone get to define the true meaning of Christmas if one doesn't intend to play God? Oh, and I'm just as insulted by your opinion, but I just tolerate it, because that's what we all should do about other's opinions. My only intention was to point out that no one gets to define the true meaning of a holiday and go out and tell people if they are celebrating the true meaning of a holiday or if they are not. And even if one does, big deal, we don't need his/her approval.

Of course in my opinion, your opinion is based on anything but Christ's message of love and acceptance. Celebrate for the reasons we do or be an outcast that does not celebrate the true meaning of a holiday according to me. Acceptance?! pauleeeeeze.

In any case, still Merry Christmas to you.

Afs-

Can one celebrate Ramadan in their own way? Can that person indulge in eating, drinking and smoking and celebrate Ramadan in that manner?




Don Cardi

Well, as the matter of fact, that's the way I celebrate it, except that I'm not a smoker. If anyone decides to play God for me, I remind them that they are not God, and they should mind their own business.

Mind you Ramadan is not a holiday, it's name of an Arabian month, and taking fast is not technically a celebration, but a duty on Muslims not to do certain things from dawn to dusk for a whole month. And they also take first day of the following month off for festivities, which must include eating. I've been told so by oldies and not God himself directly, so I don't know. Do whatever you want with it, claim you celebrated Ramadan, whatever. I don't own it, nor you'd be celebrating it for my sake or any other Muslim, nor do I get to analyze the way you carried out what God has expected from you, which is your personal business.

Isn't it considered a holy month that celebrates Mohammed's receiving the Quran from Allah when Muslim believers celebrate that act by fasting from sunrise to sunset and using the holy month as a time of spiritual renewal?


Don Cardi

No, fasting is not a celebration per se, month of Ramadan is holy because of receiving Quran, but keeping fast is a duty upon every healthy and capable Muslim and not a mean of celebration, but a mean of trial of faith. The celebration is actually the fest of Eid Al-Fetr, in which Muslims celebrate their endurance for keeping from sins and desires through the last month. Is lent a celebration/festival? Ramadan is somehow the same story.

Still, I try to keep away from certain desires and I celebrate that on Eid Al-Fetr. Who's there to tell me that I can't celebrate for such accomplishments?

Ok. So then Eid Al-Fetr is a celebration significally resulting from going through the spiritual experience of Ramadan. So in other words Muslims celebrate Eid Al-Fetr basically symbolizing the end of the holy month in which they've gone through sacrafice and spiritual healing.

Now although I may join you in your home to partake in the celebration of Eid Al-Fer, as a Christian believer the celebration itself may be fun to me, I may enjoy in the food being served and I may enjoy other festivities that go along with celebrating that holiday, but in truth, as a Christian believer, I am not partaking in celebrating with you for the religious significance that Eid Al-Fetr represents. Yes, no one should ever tell me that I cannot partake in a celebration of a Muslim holiday with my muslim friends, or any other holiday for that matter, but by the same token I am not really celebrating the holiday with you because I believe in it's religious significance, but I am celebrating it with you only because I respect your belief of what the holiday stands for spiritualy,
and I may enjoy the physical fruits that the celebration offers.

And basically that is what I think that SB and myself have been trying to convey here to you. No, neither her or I, or anyone else has the right to tell you that you shouldn't be partaking in the celebration of Christmas, but at the same time while you may be partaking in the celebration of Christmas, you really are not partaking in the spiritualy religious meaning of it, beacuse as a Muslim, it is not your belief that Christ is the son of God and that he was given to us by God as our saviour and messiah.

And just as Eid al-Fetr has a religious meaning for Muslims such as yourself, and is celebrated as a result of a spiritual and religious experience that a Muslim has goes through for the month of Ramadan, Christmas has a spiritual meaning, for
us as Christians, and that is why we celebrate it.

Can you partake in celebrating Christmas? Sure you can.
Can I partake in celebrating Eid al-Fetr? Sure I can.

But please don't sit there and tell me that your celebrating Christmas has the same spiritual religious meaning to you, a Muslim, as it does to me, a Christian, because as a Christian, Eid al-Fetr does not have the same religious significance for me, as it does for you.


No one here is telling you that you do not have a right to enjoy Christmas.



Don Cardi