The vehemence and emotionalism of Fredo's outburst in the boathouse scene tells me that his motivation in cooperating with Ola was primarily revenge on Michael for having been passed over and being shunted to Mickey Mouse nightclubs, etc.; as well as an obsession with "respect." Ola/Roth would have seen his lust for revenge and respect, and would have figured, correctly, that Fredo'd swallow any tale, any promise (no matter how specious) to get his chance at both.
FFC and Puzo built a regular subtheme around Vito's wise observation (in the novel) that "revenge is a dish best eaten cold." Did the Dons think that they'd defeated a wise and crafty man like Vito, and that he would ultimately let Sonny's death pass without vengeance? Did Carlo really think he could get away with beating up Connie (again) as a way to lure Sonny to his death? Same applies to greed: Did Paulie really think he could call in "sick" on the day the Don was shot, and get away with it? Did Fabrizio think he could set up the bombing of Michael's car and come to America--and escape the Corleones' wrath?

TB the answer to all your questions is "yes." And it all has to do with a wise observation that I believe Tataglia made at the commission meeting when he said Don Vito was "too modest." Vito's brilliance, and to a lesser extent Michael's was that they were constantly under estimated by their enemies. When Vito promised he forsook all the vengence in Sonny's death and swore that he would never be the one to break the peace, the other Dons saw this as a sign of weakness. They never guessed that Michael would come home and be able to carry the mantle the way he did. Carlo figured with Sonny out of the way and the Don old and sick he would be protected by Barzini. Paulie, no rocket scientist probably was given as little as a ticket to a football game to stay home "sick," and he just could not put two and two together. As for Fabrizzio, also not a MENSA candidate, he was so hot to get to the US (wasnt he the one yelling at the GI's?) it probably never dawned on him that with a changed name and identity that Michael could get to him.

I agree with this.

I always assumed that Fredo's "something" was a cut of the deal, once it was made on terms favorable to Roth. I mean a cash payout, which would be easily hidden from Michael.

But the real motivation was to get revenge and respect (I think more of the latter). Fredo could be a big macher , an essential part of a major transaction. He could then convince himself that he could have been a good Don and was unjustly passed over.

I think it had to be more than a cash payout. Fredo probably had all the cash he needed. This was a promise of something important...something that carried power. Mike says to him
"I've always taken care of you." And Fredo isnt mad that he is taken care of he is mad that he is being taken care of by his younger brother, mad that he was passed over, mad that all he does is run mickey mouse night clubs and take people to the airport. I think the bait was more along the lines of Ola playing to Fredo's anger and saying Mike was being tough on the negotiations and that if Fredo helped him he would get power in return... he could even have told Fredo, "You're his older brother and look how he stepped over you. You are a valuable guy and your own family doesnt respect you. Now you have this chance to do something good for the family and in addition theres something else in it for you"

DonT's right... Fredo didn't need $$$... he had all of that... I believe FFC may have goofed this one. How are we (the audience) to assess the justification of Mike's decision if we don't know Fredo's "crime" or motif? This makes me wonder if Mike even knew... and if he did... then there is no way we, as the audience, shouldn't.

Perhaps not. Fredo was portrayed as buffoon, a clod and a helpless idiot through most of GF and II, and some people here believe that his portrayal was lopsided and unfair. But what if (and I'm guessing here) FFC put him at the center of the Tahoe shooting plot as a way to show us another side of Fredo: ambitious, emotional, resentful enough to put his own brother's life in jeopardy? The Superman revelation and the boathouse scene show us a side of Fredo that we might never have guessed from anything that went before.

True... good point. And what I've often wondered is... which one is the dominating trait of Fredo??? we, as the audience, see him as a bafoon, and incapable, but is that really him? We know he's weak from the instant we see him at the wedding with his weird gestures and such, but I do not believe Fredo is to be tested; in the grand scheme of things. But, the more and more I try to defend Fredo's ambition and brain power, I keep thinking of instances that just could not have happened if this was the case... ie. Moe Green in Vegas, his wife at the party, his speech at his father's bedside, etc.

[quote= The Superman revelation and the boathouse scene show us a side of Fredo that we might never have guessed from anything that went before. [/quote]


Throughout the films and in the comentary by FFC and Puzo, there is always this talk about what a good heart Fredo had. Personally I never saw it. When we first meet him his drunk at Connie's wedding making an ass of himself. He is hardly sympathetic in his inept handling of guarding his father, and he shows no heart when he challenges Michaal's authority to go after Moe Green. He bangs cocktail waitresses two at a time, and he marries Deanna and has no children. This is a guy with a good heart?

TB you may be on to something here because you could make the case that Fredo was really a two faced liar. Obviously he wanted to take sides against the family in GF I and support Moe Green, and he betrays Michael in GF II , yet when he arrives in Havana with the two million he acts like a total suck up to Michael, and when they have a drink together he fishes for complioments and tries to ingratiate himself. So maybe he is more complex after all and maybe he DID know it was going to be a hit.

I somewhat agree and think that the Fredo analysis would be the most interesting of all. He is weak and stupid, but he is still a Corleone. He has to have atleast some of his father's genes right?

So yes he was cunning, and might have used betrayal to better his standing, its the Corleone way!

Puzo clearly paints him as the more compassionate one of the brothers. Connie says to Mike "he's so sweet, and helpless w/o you." Even Mike says "he's got a good heart, but hes weak and stupid." So no I don't doubt Fredo had a good heart.

Puzo says Fredo was more of the actor type, basically anything but a mafioso. I think that had the Corleone's lived a 'normal' lifestyle that Fredo would not have necessarily been considered weak and stupid. As is, the life of La Cosa Nostra was not suited for Fredo's type, so instead of doing Shakespeare on Broadway he was banging cocktail waitresses and letting his family down at every turn.

One of the things in this discussion of Fredo is the difference between behavior and motivation. Fredo did start out as a nice, meek boy who was thrown into the middle of a highly energetic family, to use a term. He's this nice little guy absolutley in awe of his father. He's got one brother who's really agressive and physical and another one who has his father's intelligence. He reaches an age where he realizes this comparison (like we all do), sees his brothers operating in the family business, and gets thrown into the business himself in a foreign environment (Vegas) and exposed to another quite strong personality (whose qualities he can't come anywhere near matching). In each case, Fredo emulates behaviors that he sees other strong or cool or respected people exhibit and which he thinks will please those around him. He's in over his head. In the end those behaviors don't bring him the kind of reinforcement that he seeks. As a result, he becomes frustrated. Frustration leads to anger and rash decisions, stupid decisions. I don't think he's complex at all. He's not smart enough to realize that respect is earned, that power is accumulated, and that thoughtful productive behavior is essential to respect and power.

Brace yourself, olivant...you are right on the mark.

'Complex' is a word that has been correctly used on the BB many times to describe Michael. Fredo wasn't 'complex' at all. Fredo wasn't even smart enough to realize he wasn't SMAAAAT - not DUMB LIKE EVERYBODY SAID!!

Apple

Maybe not, but more complex and certainly more retrospective than say... Santino.

Two scenes....1)Vito is lying in bed after he learns of Michael's role in the Sollozo hit, and 2) in II when Mike says "Fredo you're my brother, you don't have to apologize."....In these two scenes we see Fredo in retrospect, on one hand mourning the fact that he was too weak to save his father from the hit and the other scene in II w/ Mike he gives a look of silent frustration as Mike embarasses someone AGAIN.

Sure he was a drunken louse but Puzo portrays him CLEARLY I think as the most thoughtful and compassionate of the brothers. He would have had a great career perhaps in child care??

I don't see anything 'complex' about Fredo in either of the instances you are talking about. In addition to the fact that in GF time, they take place approximately 10 YEARS apart from each other.

I do agree though, that Santino also wasn't even remotely 'complex'. 'Simple' is the word to describe any guy that would bang a bridesmaid at his own sister's wedding, with his own wife & mother right downstairs. At least Fredo waited until getting to Vegas to get at the ladies two-at-a-time!

Apple

I do.

I Guess it depends on your definition of 'complex.' In this case I used it to mean 'retrospective,' which is why I prefaced the body of my post w/ both words.

'Slut' is a better word.

I don't think his lack of sexual restraint eliminates him from being a 'complex' person. Some, if not a majority of histories greatest minds have practiced little to no sexual restraint, look at Pee Wee Herman.

No, not that alone...I just included it to 'insert' a bit of humor. (Insert - get it?)

But if you take that instance plus Sonny's behavior throughout the film up to and including his demise...it can be agreed that Santino Corleone was not a 'complex' personality.

But neither was his brother Fredo. Which was exactly why Roth reached out to him.

Apple

"No I don't know. Tell me."

If by not having a 'complex personality' you mean not being very bright or smaht, I agree.

I think Roth approached Fredo b/c he was naive. However I think one can be naive or just a plain moron, and still have a 'complex personality.'

Both brothers were complex people in their own way.

Santino was definitely a complex person in that he had a personality that consisted of emotions and impulses that, while knowning that they were wrong to act on, he allowed to influence his behavior. Santino was built on taking impulsive actions based on his emotions.

Fredo on the other hand was complex in a different way in that he had terrible feelings of guilt because (as pointed out in a post above), he realized that he was unable to protect his father, and he felt guilty when talking to Mike in Cuba, knowing that he was ignorant enough to be fooled into believing Ola and Roth, and that he betrayed his own brother.

So in truth I don't think that you can really say that one brother was not more complex than the other, or that one was a complex person and the other wasn't. Both were complex people in different ways, for different reasons, under different meanings of the word.





Don Cardi

If those two descriptions define each brother as 'complex' then that includes about 95% of the population of the planet. Fredo felt the same 'guilt' in both instances that ANYBODY would feel, having FAILED to protect their father and then having BETRAYED their brother.

Each of the 4 Corleone siblings (5 if you count Tom) had their own particular personalities and traits, and their own way of dealing with particular circumstances. Complexities is a whole different issue.

Fredo and Sonny were not 'complex'. Even Connie can be described as more 'complex' than those two. But of course Michael was the most interesting to watch, to marvel at and to study in terms of the complete metamorphasis that took place over the two (ok, even THREE) films. He was the 'complex' one; and he was written that way by Puzo, directed that way by FFC, portrayed that way by Pacino.

Apple

You should watch 3 to see just how 'complex' Connie turned out to be. The 'metamorphasis' that you label Mike with is just about as apparent w/ Connie as well as Kay for that matter.

I don't think anyone outside of Mike could ever be considered to have...Freudian or Van Gogh type complexities.....but Fredo atleast is retrospective about EVERY wrong turn that he made. He made lots of stupid mistakes but we see him time and time again go back and reconsider his actions. He is reflective about his misgivings as Vito's bodyguard, he is reflective/sorrowful if not embarrased about having to go 'learn the casino business ' , we never see him after the Moe Greene debacle, but in II he is retrospective/remorseful about his jezebel wife(wish I'd married a woman like you did), and he is clearly reflective and regretful about his betrayal of MIke(i.e--'why didn't we talk like this before' and 'hail mary, full of grace, the lord is with thee....'). Fredo atleast takes the time to consider the actions that he took, even if only in hindsight. The hail mary that becomes his last line of the movie is FFC's display of Fredo's quest for 'forgiveness' and approval I think. Therefore I say he is quite the complex fellow.


EDIT--point being, just b/c he sucked as a mafioso, was a drunk, betrayed his 'family', and did not know how to keep his mouth shut, would not necessarily make him a dense person. Puzo clearly intends that Fredo had the ability to be good at something, like all of us are. Only those who go through life w/ no reflection about the course of their life should be considered a 'non-complex type'(thesauraus much ice?). This was not Fredo, Sonny maybe, but not Freddie. LEAVE FREDDIE ALONE, HE'S SO SWEET AND HELPLESS!!

Exactly. He was sufficiently unintelligent to have accumulated a bevy of regrets at least one of which almost resulted in the death of his brother and did result in his death. If those regrets are evidence of complexity, then President Bush might just be the most complex person on the planet.

I think a willingness to view problems and decisions from MULTIPLE viewpoints and admit when your decisions are wrong is 'evidence of complexity' yes. Whether it be done before or after the fact. He was flexible unlike Santino, who would rarely if ever admit to being wrong.

However Fredo (or GW ) would not be mentally 'complex' in the same way that a Freud or Van Gogh, as I already said. I hope your not going to put such narrow boundaries on the definition of such a complex word as 'complex.'


('Complex' was not my terminology by the way, someone else( ) decided to use it and I'm just going along w/ the argument)

In the way that Apple did?





Ok, why don't you give us all a lesson on the definitions of the word Complex? Please explain to us. I am sincerely looking forward to it.

Don Cardi

[SC]You two wanna take the pissing contest elsewhere?[/SC]
I think we have multi-sex restrooms here at the BB



Mike was smarter, but only in terms of the family business. Maybe Fredo would have been a better writer, Sonny a better mechanic. What is smart? There's no such thing. If you want to equate 'complexity' w/ intelligence then Fredo and Sonny ain't got it, but only as far as the family business is concerned. (Although we assume the actively minded Mike would have exceled in other areas that his 'dead head' brothers would not have.)

It's so hard to say that my dog is not 'complex,' but for arguments sake I will say that I think someone who ACTIVELY goes through the infinite possibilities of human thought is 'complex.' Mike was more CAPABLE and more WILLING than Fredo to go through the 'infinite possibilities of human thought' and waaaaay more CAPABLE and WILLING than Santino. Thus Mike was the complex one of the family.

(But as far as emotional complexity? Mike was severely challenged as opposed to his brothers who were pretty damn emotionally complex. I think Fredo and Sonny would have made way better fathers than Mike.)

I still don't understand how repeatedly making mistakes, then regreting them constitutes complexity.

Well, I'm not here to actually 'define' the word 'complex'. Just saying that Sonny and Fredo were NOT complex. They were on the whole pretty easy to figure out.

But if you insist...see below from Webster's Dictionary:

Main Entry: 1com·plex
Pronunciation: 'käm-"pleks
Function: noun
Etymology: Late Latin complexus totality, from Latin, embrace, from complecti
1 : a whole made up of complicated or interrelated parts (Michael Corleone)

2 a : a group of culture traits relating to a single activity (as hunting), process (as use of flint), or culture unit

b (1): a group of repressed desires and memories that exerts a dominating influence upon the personality (2): an exaggerated reaction to or preoccupation with a subject or situation c : a group of obviously related units of which the degree and nature of the relationship is imperfectly known d : the sum of factors (as symptoms) characterizing a disease or condition

Apple

Ice, no where in this topic has SC made a post of this kind. Obviously you have taken this quote from another topic, which is something that we try not to do here on the boards. Besides, there is no pissing contest going on here as all we are doing is having a discussion about the interpretation and proper use of the word 'complex' as it applies to Sonny and Fredo.






Well to answer the both of you, there are multiple definitions for the word as the word has many different uses for many different meanings. However I will provide you both with the apllicable definition as it applies to the character personalities that we are talking about here ;


complex - a combination of emotions and impulses that have been rejected from awareness but still influence a person's behavior. an exaggerated reaction to or preoccupation with a subject or situation

Definitions that can apply to a personality like Sonny's.



Complex - the experiencing of affective and emotional states; "she had a feeling of euphoria"; "he had terrible feelings of guilt"

A definition that can apply to a personality like Fredo's.


It's a matter of interpretation and how the individual perceives the personalities of each of these characters.



Don Cardi

Geez DC take it easy, SC says that all the time and I think its funny that it often involves Apple and a male. (EDIT--I was trying to make light of the situation, b/c if we are going to break out the dictionaries to define 'complex', we should all go find that thread in gen disc asking 'what is love, freedom and art,' and offer a definition there. We might be there a while though. )

You made your points, and everyone else made their's. I think this is the point where we put away the dictionary and all agree to disagree.

Based on all these definitons for complex, I am certain that I have never met anyone who is not complex (and that includes dogs and cats, too).