In re-watching GFII last night, I noticed that when all hell was breaking loose in Havana after Batista stepped down, that Michael, who was riding in a car to the airport spots Fredo, and gets out of the car and shouts to him to get in the car and fly back with him to the US. During this he says "I'm still your brother!" I wonder if Fredo had taken that ride, and gone back to the US with Mike whether things would have been different for him. Note that when Mike gets back to Nevada, the first thing he asks Tom after asking whether Kay knows he is back, is "Where is my brother?" Then he tells Tom to get word to Fredo that he knows he was misled, etc. This shows Mike was still ambivalent about what to do about Fredo, and it seems he may well have just kept him under a kind of house arrest in the compound.

It is not until Mike discovers that Fredo's treachery extends beyond the initial attempted hit that he decides to kill him. This happens in the famous "Im Smart' I can handle things" scene when Michael allows Fredo to rant on and on, and then asks him whether Fredo knows anything about the Senate investigation, at which point Fredo tells him that the Senate lawyer "belongs to Roth." This tells us that Fredo was still withholding important information from Mike, and it is at that point that Michael's attitude changes. In Havana he is saying "you broke my heart," and "I'm still your brother." Now, however his tone is completly changed. He says "You're nothing to me now, your not a brother, youre not a friend......" In other words because Fredo's betrayal was not just a one time mistake, but an ongoing thing, Michael decided he had no choice but to have him killed. So I think Fredo had a last chance to redeem himself in Havana, but he blew it.

I disagree.

After Michael knew that Fredo was the traitor, he had made up his mind.

He had already given Fredo the "kiss of death." His attempt to lure him into the car was simply so he didn't lose track of him, because he had already decided to eliminate him.

His comments to Hagen were desgned to mislead Fredo, make him believe that he was forgiven, and bring him back to make it easier to kill him.

In the "I'm smaht" scene, Fredo didn't really say anything to Mike that indicated his treachery was on-going, with the possible exception of the comment about Questadt.

Michael had already made up his mind before then.

In th ebeginning, Michael is under the assumption that Fredo was not aware of the full extent of his treachery. Michael probably believes that Fredo, being somewhat stupid, was talked into doing something, perhaps with his intentions not being totally bad. I think that Fredo's little speech showed that he was not simply misled. He was bursting with jealousy and resentment. He was "stepped over", and during his rant, Michael sees how dangerours Fredo truly is. That is the moment that he knows that his brother must be eliminated.

Michael did not forgive treachery for any reason.

Sure, he saw how much jealousy and resentment Fredo had, but I don't think it made a difference.

Didn't the kiss he gave Fredo in Havana tell us that Fredo was a dead man?

I think he wanted Fredo to think Michael was going to forgive him to have Fredo relax and get close to Michael again I dont' think for a second he wasn't goign to kill him

I agree Plaw. That is the Kiss of death. Michael had made up his mind long before Fredo's "slip of the tongue" that whoever was responsible for the attempt on his life, for jeopardizing his wife and children's well being, would pay with their life.

At that moment when Mike realizes it is Fredo, yes, you can see by the look on his face that he is sick to his stomach that it was Fredo who betrayed him, but when he composes himself from his emotions, what does he do next? He goes to Fredo and gives him the kiss of death and almost as if he is trying to warn Fredo that he's now a dead man says " I know it was you Fredo, I know it was you."

Mike knew that he needed to keep Fredo close to him to find out all Fredo knew, and once Fredo was no longer of any use to Mike, he became dispensible!


Don Cardi

There are a lot of mixed signals and interpretations. I tend to lean toward Michael keeping Fredo alive as a brother. But as plaw observes "the Kiss" seals Fredo's fate. Was Michael thinking clearly in Havanna? In a film context we are riding the emotions and doubts of who was the traitor and to what extent. We are pulled back and forth.

I would tend to think that as time went on and Michael put more pieces of the puzzle together that he learned Fredo was more deeply involved and knew more than he original thought. The boat house scene sealed Fredo's fate as SB indicated. Fredo knew about Questadt and he expressed anger at being stepped over. Fredo, athough stupid and weak was dangerous and unpredictable.

If Mike didn't know at that moment tht he would now eventually have to kill Fredo, then why the Kiss of Death?

I believe that FFC wanted us to see that and say, " Wow this guy just gave his own brother the kiss of death, will he really kill his own brother?"

Mike knew that he had to kill him, and that is why at that moment he got that sick look on his face, saying to himself " my own brother, he betrayed me, and now I have to kill my own brother."


Don Cardi

If Michael cared so little about Fredo's death, as you describe, then why would he care if he got out of Havana? Why not just leave him behind, and hope that maybe the rebels would do his dirty work for him? I think that the fact that he tried to get Fredo out shows that he was undecided at that moment.

Because Michael knew that he needed to find out more information from Fredo. Therefore Fredo had to remain unharmed until he could get any and all information that Fredo had. The boathouse conversation was the last resort to extract information from Fredo, and at the end of that conversation Mike knew that he had gotten all that he was going to get from Fredo.


Don Cardi

Then why did Michael wait so long to ask Fredo what he knew about the Senate hearings?

IMHO he made sure that Fredo was comfortable again, that he would no longer fear that something may happen to him.


Don Cardi

Leaving Fredo behind was no guarantee that he would be killed.

Roth got out, and Michael knew that Fredo was involved with Roth. He didn't wait.

The hearings took place after Havana. Michael asked Fredo what he knew about them while they were still taking place.

He was leaving nothing to chance.

I agree with Don Cardi........"Don't tell anyone what you are thinking" Mike made it seem like he was looking toward Fredo for help.....notice his demeanor....."Is there anything you can tell me that could help me??" He got what he needed from Fredo, and then when he was done, he gave him that classice "you are nothing to me now." line......Michael was smarter than his old man......and that is why he stayed alive soo long. Brilliant!!!!!

IMHO he made sure that Fredo was comfortable again, that he would no longer fear that something may happen to him.


Don Cardi [/QB][/QUOTE]


Ahh... so to quote Apple....Fredo didnt know.

Once Michael learned of Fredo's actions and the kiss of death, I think Fredo was a dead man.

Michael had to wait until Mama Corleone had died first, though. Once she is gone Fredo is going to sleep with the fishes.

Fredo's 'I'm smahhhht' speech only serves to bury him even further.

Agreed. Michael was following his own adage: keep your friends close but your enemies closer. He didn't want Fredo to disappear into the night, possibly to go to Roth and divulge even more Corleone family secrets, possibly even to set up a hit on Michael again. He wanted Fredo in his sights, so that he could kill him when Mama died.

The situation reminds me of Carlo's story. As Carlo was a dead man from the moment that Sonny was killed, so whas Fredo from the moment that he revealed that he knew Roth and Ola. As he did with Carlo, Michael talked to Fredo in order to make it one hundred percent certain that he was not deceived into all this. And, of course, Michael kept them both close to him when the time was approaching . Fredo had no chance.

I agree about mike wanting to keep Freddie close. But at that time in havana, when he tells Freddie to come with him in the car he didn't tell him that because he was worried about Freddie going back to Roth. He even says to Freddie that Roth is dead. at the time he didn't know that Roth was still alive.


DS

Logic is on plaw's side, dt. Michael had a long history by that time of never giving an enemy or a traitor a pass, no matter what. He wanted Fredo close to him because he wanted to pump him for as much info as he could get. But that kiss at the party was the kiss of death.
Still, some of us here wonder if Fredo's rant in the boathouse may have sealed his fate. Fredo showed Michael the depth of his resentment and rage. It's hard to blame Michael for concluding that his brother, who nearly got him killed once, would be a danger to him as long as he was alive.

speaking about giving Traitors a pass...did they ever say what happened to Willy Cicci?

No, and others here have wondered, too. There was no Witness Protection Program when Cicci testified ca. 1959-60. But keep in mind that while Cicci turned rat, he didn't directly endanger Michael. When asked if he ever got a direct order from Michael, he replied, "No, I never talked to him." Frankie was the main threat.

Have to agree with plaw, Don Cardi, Turnbull and all those who think that Fredo's fte was sealed with the New Year's kiss. Is there a small clue when after the "I'm smaaht" rant Michael says to Neri "I don't want anything to happen to him while my mother's alive"? For me this could suggest that Michael and Neri has already discussed the "what" would happen to Fredo and now Michael was simply confirming the "when".

It has always been a some what of a tradition in Sicily and other parts of Italy with the Honored Society that to publicly mark someone for death a "Judas kiss" is used and I think the kiss on New Years was just that and sealed his fate right then and there.

the kiss on news years eve marked fredos fate without a doubt,

obviously it was a biblical reference to judas, even though perhaps michael didnt wanna kill fredo he had no choice,

when fredo went on his rant at the wake of his mothers funeral, that only furthered michaels resolve to kill him

When Mike told Neri "not while my mother is alive" Was
Mama C. already on her deathbed?

Could be, but even if she wasn't gravely ill, she was elderly and obviously didn't have much time left in any event.

There was no 'last chance' for Fredo either in Havana or when he returned home.

Once he confirmed with his own stupid slip in front of Michael that he was the 'traitor'...he was a dead man.

Whether it took weeks, months or years...it was only a matter of time.

Apple

It's kind of hard to believe he would have Fredo killed for what he did, but it would seem to me that what Kay did must have been even more hurtful to him. But I guess having your own brother killed is one thing, but would he have been low enough to have had Kay, the mother of his children whacked?

Even if it took years for Mama C. to pass away what would Michael have done with Freddie in the meantime to ensure he wouldn't go against the family again?