THIS DISCUSSION THREAD CONTAINS SPOILER MATERIAL ON "THE GODFATHER RETURNS" - DO NOT READ THIS THREAD UNLESS YOU WANT TO HAVE SOME STORYLINE FACTS REVEALED.

As TIS suggested, let's use this thread to discuss the GF Returns book. Please post under this heading if you want to talk about the contents of the book. This way we will not spoil it for anyone else who has not read or finished the book.


Don Cardi

Edit Note: To put the spoiler warning in a prominent location - SC

can you please also put chapters or page numbers. Just incase I read the first 30 pages and want to discuss it and then I get a spoiler for page 35 I will know not to look.

I'm about 40 pages in. So SPOILERS are included in what I've read so far...

I'm liking it so far. I love how the book is filling in the cracks, like the Tessio execuition and the tid-bits about roughing up the kids who raped Bonasara's daughter from the beginning of Part I.

I don't know how I feel about Michael flying a plane and Fredo being gay though. We'll see.

I agree DBC. The Tessio execution was nicely done and tying Geraci into the "history" (by noting that he was one of the former boxers who avenged Bonasera's daughter's attack) added some enjoyment.

I'm not real happy, so far, about the Sonny's daughter in college sub-plot, though.

The restaurant, "Two Toms", where the Michael-Barzini meeting was to have taken place, actually exists.

It's in Brooklyn, on the corner of 3rd Avenue and Union Street. No abmbiance whatsoever, food only slightly above average, a real "joint".

I met the owner's son (who worked there as a waiter) more than 25 years ago at poker club in Brooklyn I used to frequent. I ate there several times in those days, but hadn't been back there, strangely enough, until last summer.

The guy still works there (as a waiter), and we quickly remembered each other.

Maybe we should go there for dinner.

Just stay off Flatbush Avenue, though. There's a Dodgers doubleheader.

BTW - Winegardner doesn't have the "eyes for detail" that Puzo had. There was never any Dodgers-Phillies double header in April or May of 1955.

OK.... the connection to this Ambassador Shea looks like it could get interesting. Shea is apparently modeled after Joseph Kennedy.

I'm surprised, because Winegardner is a huge baseball fan/historian and has written a few books on the sport.

Maybe he meant Pittsburgh?

( 1955 Dodgers Schedule )

Just stay off Flatbush Avenue, though. There's a Dodgers doubleheader.[/b][/quote]As we begin to pick the book apart....

If Michael were coming from Long Beach to Union & 3rd, the best way to go in 1955 would probably have been straight across Atlantic Avenue to 3rd Avenue.

Irrespective of when the various parkways and expressways were completed, and when the Atlantic Beach Bridge was completed, I can't think of any route from Long Beach that would have taken him anywhere near the part of Flatbush Avenue that would be affected by traffic caused by a Dodgers game.

Man, the Dodgers started off that year 22-2

And remember where they finished that year!!!!

I read over 100 pages. I like it so far.

CHAPTER ONE QUESTION


In the first chapter, when the author is intruding Ace Geraci, he explains that he was part of the Tessio regime, right? Then the author goes on to say that Ace was one of the soldiers who carried out the job of revenging the attack on Amerigo Bonasera's daughter. If I remember correctly didn't the Don tell Hagen to give the job to Clemenza, who used his own guys to do the job?


Don Cardi

You are correct.

----------------------------------------
BONASERA (as he leaves the room)

Grazie, Godfather.

VITO CORLEONE

Prego.

(then, to Tom Hagen, after Bonasera leaves the room)

Ah, give this to ah, Clemenza. I want reliable people; people that aren't gonna be carried
away. I'm mean, we're not murderers, despite of what this undertaker says.
------------------------------------

Perhaps he was a member of Clemenza's crew 10 years earlier. In any case, either this is an error or somethign that should have been better explained.

Yep. I posted this same point in one of the other threads yesterday. Winegardner later expands on this, but doesn't clear up the mistake. (He writes that Paullie Gatto used Geraci as a free-lancer when they beat up the two young guys who attacked Bonasera's daughter).

I'm halfway thruought chapter 12 now, and I have to say I have been very disapointed. The characters are nothing like the REAL Corleones,Mikey and Kay making out in the movie theater? Fredo a bi(and I really didnt need to hear about how he had a hard time getting it up for the French Hooker)? You also gotta hate how Cunio and Strachi survived a shotgun and 2 bullet at close range attack, but havent been mentioned since. The new characters are a mess, but at least he is always dropping names as if to say "I read the first book" :rolleyes: Sonny's kid is going to be the new Lucy storyline and the Ambassator has uncanny parallels to Jack Woltz.However these new characters have been pulled down to adolecent "street gang" types. If it wasnt about The Corleones (which I have a hard time believing it actually was) it is an entertaining story. Reads a lot like The Last Don. Prehaps he read the wrong book.....?

As we continue to pick the book apart and spot errors....

Winegardner writes that in 1955, Rocco was not yet thirty years old.

Which would have made him under twenty when he was running a gas rationing coupon scam and when he whacked Paulie and got the promotion to top button man.

A little young for all of that, I think.... :rolleyes:

Also, in the scene where he introduces Kay's father, he writes how her parents had always "been in her corner", even the time they were visited by Federal Agents, who acused Mike of being a gangster and a murderer.

The two who visited Kay's home were NYC detectives (Phillips & Siriani), not federal agents.

So far, on the whole, I'm a bit disappointed, but, as I hit about page 100, the plot does seem to be thickening a bit.

Heyyyyy.... you can't say that. Winegardner knows more about "The Godfather" than any man alive!

:rolleyes:

I reaaaaaaaaaaaallly am losing interest in buying this book.

I am not reading the storyline, but admit I open and scan this thread. So should I not even bother or what??

Are you guys giving it a fair shot? Remember we can't expect perfection like the first one.

Just curious to know if I need to jump right into this book, or read it at my leisure.

Then again, I don't always agree with critics.

SC when you can, just post a "so far" review in the other thread, so I won't be tempted to read the story here ok? I think I know you at least well enough to trust your review.

TIS

Add to the list that Winegardner includes the Corleones in the "Five Families" of New York. (He drops the term "Five Families" by the way).

Add to the list that Winegardner includes the Corleones in the "Five Families" of New York. (He drops the term "Five Families" by the way). [/b][/quote]Who is he to try and take away one of the most discussed topics on this message board


I HOPE he doesn't rewrite the Fredo scene later in the book saying: Fredo turns to Neri KNOWING what is going to happen....

We'd have to hold Appleonya back if that happens

I saw the book at Wal-Mart for $17.00. Glad I saved my money. I read the original GF Novel and watched GF1 and 2. Bonesera's daughter kept her honor so how could she have been raped? She resisted that was why they beat her like an animal. Fredo a Bi? Fredo was described as big and strong in the book. Cazale didn't come off as a bi in the movies. He portrayed a Fredo that is stupid. The author gave a radio interview in which he mentioned filling in the gaps, Michael being made, ect. It looks like he is rewriting history.

Page 269 now, and Oh God, make it stop please.WTF is the Fred Corleone show? Are you kidding me. So you mean to tell me Fredo was the host of a TV show in the west when he went on the run from Mike in Havana and ended up in NY? I dont think so! They got rid of the Tahoe house because of bugs, but it was clearly there Anthony's communion night when the attempted hit took place,I dont think they could have rebulit it that fast. Didnt Kay say in GF3 that was the first time she'd ever been to Sicily? But no, the movies were wrong again :rolleyes: I think Iven mentioned it was a little strange for Stracchi and Cunio to still be living. And its extremely stupid for a guy who is supposedly so close to Mike to never have been seen or mentioned, but he was the only who orcastrated Fredo's betreyal, which I must add, is so absurd there is no way Fredo could have come up with that. :rolleyes: Oh and how could I forget about Clemenza's death. He really explained that. I love how Fredo thought he was pop's favorite and he says to Tom "Did you ever think about that?" huh, did you ever think about that. Make Fredo a bi, make Fredo a retard,sent Fredo off on some rediculious plot twist. I'm a decent character Mark, and you fucked me over!

Stay tuned for my review,rather my angry rants, when I finish the whole thing.

I hope they don't make this into a movie.

My two cents:

On the first read-through, the GFR book makes a decent effort to fill in the gaps. However, overall, the book strikes me as a 'forced' effort. Perhaps my view is jaded and my expectations are based on the GF book, GF1 and GF2.

As with GF3, for someone for whom this story is their 'padrino point of entry', it will be well received. However for me (and I suspect many of you), the GF book and the first two movies (in particular) really told the entire story. If someone wanted to flesh out the Corleone story, I think that the period of Vito's rise to power might be a worthwhile effort. But other than that, any other effort, including this one, is just an effort to embellish a completed story.

TIS - I respect your view that perhaps some of us are too critical of the book. However, this guy knew the risks before he opened his MS Word document. There are too many people that know the story lines and dialog for him to tinker with subtle aspects of the story. Perhaps we are just trying to preserve the beauty and integrity of the original work. I admit I am biased; I like the original GF novel, GF1 and GF2. I think that GF3 was a big mistake. GFR is a solid effort, but I question whether the author's real intent was to put the icing on the cake or take orders for more cakes.

I would hate to see Michael Corleone become the next Zatoichi or James Bond - at that point he would be a real serial killer ;-) I respect this man's work, I appreciate his level of effort and his respect for tbe original body of work, but I think that the book does more damage than good. I will read this through a few more times; perhaps I will loosen up a bit. But for now, I think that this is an example of gilding the lily.

Any reaction folks?

Maybe he saw 'Dog Day Afternoon' too many times, and mixed him up with Pachino.

That pretty much sums up my feelings about what I've read so far.

He (Winegardner) had some big shoes to fill, and his book doesn't live up to its predecessor. Perhaps if we all weren't such "Godfather" fanatics we'd be more "open" to his sequel, but apparently we're not (open) to it and I guess thats the price Winegardner has to pay for writing a follow-up to such a beloved book.

SPOILERS ABOUT FREDO!!!!!!!!


That pretty much sums up my feelings about what I've read so far.

He (Winegardner) had some big shoes to fill, and his book doesn't live up to its predecessor. Perhaps if we all weren't such "Godfather" fanatics we'd be more "open" to his sequel, but apparently we're not (open) to it and I guess thats the price Winegardner has to pay for writing a follow-up to such a beloved book. [/b][/quote]SC,
I am probably NOT as far into the book yet as you are. I am really trying to read this with an open mind and without high expectations. I gotta say though, so far for the most part I am enjoying it somewhat, that is except that he made Fredo into a bi-sexual! I don't know about anyone else here, but even though Fredo was not one of the sharpest tools in the shed, I always liked the character. Hey, how can I believe that this guy was a bi-sexual when he was actually banging cocktail waitresses two at a time!

But I intend to go on with an open mind while reading this book.


Don Cardi

That was in room 101.......in room 102 there were 2 cocktail waiters :p :p

That was in room 101.......in room 102 there were 2 cocktail waiters :p :p [/quote]And in Room 103 was a waiter and a waitress.

Who ever would've thought that Vito Spatafore would've been gay? 'Nuf said.

I really don't have a problem with that Fredo storyline. In fact, I think it's rather bold!

Granted, I'm only 136pp into it at this point and I'm not sure how it ends up, but -- "not that there's anything wrong with that", right?

That was unexpected. Vito was unexpected. Is it bold, sure. Is it unexpected, sure! Does it create controversy and discussion? Well, of course!

I have no problem w/ it.

As far as strict facts and whatnot... SURE, it would've been great if everything fit together like a jigsaw puzzle. Of course! But I, for one, cannot read a novel while at the same time be fact-checking. Maybe it's just me.

The book is VERY well written. My only problem is that I can't read it at very long lengths due to time constraints. But I tell you, if I had 2-3 days where I had no other obligations, than surely I'd've finished by now! (Alas, finally I look forward to the laundromat so I can get a couple more chapters in

On my first pass-through, I am not at all concerned with continuity. Being bothered by that would just be a distraction to me. While I'm only 136pp into it, I'm more excited about where the story is going than "OMG, he fucked something up!" I just can't read like that on the first pass.

Sure, if I was to narrow it down as a research project, I would have some questions for the author. And surely, he'd have some answers for "why". Err, umm,.... "artistic license," I'm sure he'd say. And then I'd say, "well, WTF?? You can't just change shit around like that!!"

Maybe it's just me. Of COURSE I think of the Corleones as a REAL family and hate to see even the most minute detail differ! But at the same time, I do realize that this is another person's interpretation of events. And, quit a unique one at that.

And, for that, I cannot denounce his effort.

That said, I look forward to my next reading to see what happens next! :p

In actuality the Don had his doubts about Michael in the Puzo novel. However Michael quickly put those fears to rest.

Man this book is killing me. It's dull and I can't believe I read through it all. You guys are right, it is so forced. Poor Fredo has to be bi...What's up with everyone being bi or gay when they die...all of a sudden it comes out...Im wondering if the "Arafat was gay" headline will be in the newspapers shortly...Im glad I only paid 10 bucks for this garbage...the sad part is that this was the best the Puzo estate could do...I can only imagine what the losing manuscripts were about..."So Fredo comes in and he takes on Don Darth Vader for the right to take over the Deathstar"..."Michael Corleone begins to shrink and becomes a midget who searches for the Lord Of the Rings"....ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!! Wake me up when this is over...

What I wanna know is who actually sabotage dthe plain? At one point the book makes it seem like the Chicago outfidid/ Another point it makes us believe the Cleveland don did it/ And now Michael

In a 20+ page sequence covering Michael's childhood through his military service, Winegardner has him attending Columbia rather than Dartmouth.

Since there was no reason in the plot for that change, and since Dartmouth is where he met Kay, it makes me wonder how carefully Winegardner read the original in the first place.

PL - that is the critical point - the dude changed pieces of baseline story! He did not create a 'literary derivative', he changed some of the core tenets of what we have embraced as 'truth' (as much as a fiction can be true).

Perhaps he had contractual freedom to do so. Perhaps his ego told him that he could revise the GF series now that Puzo is dead. I am leaning toward the latter. In the first place, it would require someone of great skill or insanity to even think about writing a follow up novel - especially when so many people know the novel, the movie dialogue and the story logic intimately.

The more that I think about this, the more I see that the author decided to modify 'history' to make it 'his story'. Again, I respect his right to write books, but I do not recall a survey reporting that we thought that the GF series needed a makeover. Sure, fill in the gaps, write a tale that logically fits into the existing framework, but don't change what was there just to create your personal version of the truth.

The GFR is like Tara Reid's breast augmentation (revealed during a recent wardrobe malfunction) - it looked great until the cover came off. When the cover came off, the true skills and intentions of the surgeon were revealed.

Well put, DP.

I just wonder if the changes were intentional or not, since the ones we've cited here (NYC detectives changed to federal agents, Dartmouth to Columbia, etc.) don't seem to be made to further the plot in any way.

I'm thinking maybe it was simply carelessness.

Have you finished it, BTW?

I have done one read-through - plan to give this a highly detailed look starting next week.

Mike dropping out to join the CC?! I dont think so.
"Why dont you just quit college and join the Army"
"I did" That to me, pretty much tells me Mike was in school during Pearl Harbor. There was also a passage about him wanting to join the Air Force but he was under 5'10". I'm not an expert on this subject, but when I was a kid my dad took me to see one of those B52s and my dad asked a question about hight requirements for the "belly gunner" or whatever that guy was called, because the bubble was way to small for him to fit in. The tour guide responded that at that time a lot of guys werent much taller than 5'7".Again, I'm not too knowledgeable in that. I know there's more things I'm fogetting to complain about, but I know I'll remember them when I post this.

The one thing I think is somewhat humerous is the Kennedy character.

EDIT- Ah yes, you see I remembered. In the flashback part of the book, Michael would rather go to school than visit his father in the hospital.Fredo tries to make him go, but it doesnt work. Sonny would have kicked the living daylights out of him, not to mention the fact he would probably go out of respect for his father,wanting to be a man like him or not.

EDIT- B17 not B52

Well, I finished it friday night. I have to say the end left a better taste than the beginning. At last we see that,above all that we have just read, there may be hope for Winegardener- he doesnt try to explain Tom's death. Darn, I really wanted to hear that Tom was chosen for the first flight to Jupiter, but didnt make it. :rolleyes: Maybe Winegardener plans to bring Tom back, and say "Oh, Tom, he didnt die....he just....was living in a cave for the time period GF3 took place.Yeah, yeah thats it." Despite all, it was a decent read, as long as your not a Godfather fan. If I have enough time tomarrow, I'll write a review and post it.

Sarcasm and all? I can't wait... :rolleyes: :p

Maybe someone who read the book already, may answer such a question.
If the book does not interfere with movies, does it accept their plots thoroughly? Does it try to justify, or prepare ground to, the inconsistences and flaws that we find even in the 2 part, nothing to be said of the 3-d?
From what you say i see that it doesn't follow Puso’s ideas strictly, including coppola’s too.
We know wery well, for instance, that Puso was against the killing of Fredo, that he felt it to be absolutely impossible, and it was Coppola alone who insisted on it.
But in other things?
We know, that Mike and Kay had two boys in the first two years, then after a few years more there could be Mary, so they must have 3 children.
As to GF3 , It always seemed to me impossible to believe in. It has simply nothing to do with the first two. I don’t say that it is a bad movie, maestro didn’t know how to make bad movies . But it is written about absolutely different people. All of them, especially Michael, had to become “stupid and soft”, short-sighted, to loose all the will, character, brains, cunning, all their abilities carefully created by the novel, to start acting talking and thinking as they do in almost every moment of this movie.
That relates to the shocking, obvious and un-mafia-like flaws in their business actions, and organisation of security.
But most of all, personalities! We hear nothing in the book of Vinnie. and Antobello, supposing that he is about 70 in 1980, we should think that he stood godfather to Connie being 18 or 19, when Vito was already 40? And why should Vito grant such a honor to such a salad? And my oft-repeated point about Anthony, who is still unable to get his law degree, being 30, at least. Degeneration?
The most important of all is that Michael would never give children to Kay. If something is impossible, that is. After all that we see and read, especially after the stare he gives her when he catches her visiting children, we must be convinced that he would never let her even approach them. That by killing his child she made him feel such pain, disappointment an even hatred, that it killed all his love and respect for her, whatever it could be, and killed forever. She could have no illusions about that, she wished to do it, she said “there would be no way Michael, no way you could ever forgive me.” And there is no way. Even if he didn’t kill her, that never means that he could forgive. And certaily, he is not an idiot to send his children to the only person in the world who would most surely teach them to hate him.
And of course, he would never say “I love you…Forgive me everything...” NEVER! And he would never complaint being feared. Anyone else could. Not he.
I think that he would rather marry again, it would be more natural for him.
And he was not the man to dream every night about losing her, and children he is supposed to have given up himself. He is not so sentimental and snotty, and there is a lack of logic in all this.
And that goddamned legitimacy.
Where could they find a single clue about it’s being of any real importance to Mike? From GF2 we may conclude that he had already changed his wiews on the necessity of being legitimate .
And he is not the man to be so concience-eaten about Fredo. He is too cold and ruthless already for that. He would regret, perhaps, but never repent. I think that they squeesed the GF3 out of themselves cursing, and prettily forgot in 16 years what was it all about.
But i must apologise for the length of this post - I feel myself being carried avay by the smell of blood
So, does the book try to make GF3 possible?

*bump!*

"Come on, be serious, I asked you a question."
(Kay impatiently to Michael, Chapter 25)

SPOIILERS!SPOILERS!SPOILERS!SPOILERS!

Boy, I'll tell you something, I am about halfway through this book and man, it's really becoming a struggle to pick it up and read it! This book just hasn't "pulled me in" yet. I must say that so far it's been a dissapointment for me. The best part so far for me was the "initiation ceremonies." When the plane crashed, I realy thought that they book had started to shift into high gear, but lo and behold, a few pages later, it slowed right back down again. So far it just seems that this writer has tried to "FILL IN" the book in many parts with unnecessary sub plots, if you can even call them that. A huge dissapointment so far. But I'll still give it a chance as I have about half the book left to read.
Feel like a kid back in school who is forcing himself to finish a book assignment!

Don Cardi

What part are you on? In the last few chapters, it gets worse, much worse. I couldnt concentrate on the words or what was being said, and the only other time that has ever happened to me was reading "Once and Future King" in 10th grade.

Don Cardi:

Thank you for your honest feedback - I thought it was just me. I am on my second read. I am finding myself reading some, skipping ahead to see if it grabs me, seeing that it doesn't, going back to see if what I skipped made a difference, etc.

What I do see is related to an observation by PL. He mentioned (an was quite right) that the novel diverges from GF1 and GF2. Looking back, I do not think any one really minded that divergence, we simply became either book fans and/or movie fans and did not make a big deal over the differences.

GFR is trying to reconcile the differences between the novel and the movie series. I think that Winegardner should have either decided to extend the novel -leaving the existing truth intact or should have decided to bridge the movies, but leaving the existing truth intact. But not try to do both.

I wish Winegardner no ill will, but I hope that no one gets 'happy feet' and tries to make a movie out of this for 'the next generation of GF fans'. I am still working my way through GFR in an iterative fashion, but I have read enough pockets of detail to know that this book is trying to do too much - recall the past, fill in the gaps, bridge the novel and the movies, add new story lines and change/expand the characters of the Fredo and Tom.

Believe me, if after multiple reads GFR grabs me, I will gladly come back to the boards and sing its praises. But as noted by Don Cardi, right now, this is some tough sledding for me.

If any of the old timers (CD, Snake or Turnbull) are still around, I would love to get their opinions of GFR. They were usually pretty-dead on correct in their observations of GF issues.

Let's be clear. Save your money. To late? Don't waste
your time. Anyone of us could have thumbed through
the "The Gofather" and written a better GF Returns.
This is boring boring boring ad nausium. Vito should
never have made it out of Italy alive let alone built an empire. Random House is gutless in my view and didn't even attempt to have Its stooge-pardon me- ITS
contest winner attempt to even take a shot, at the very
least, at entertaining its audience. I'd rather read Star Teck 20 or whatever the latest is.GFR's endless commentery on what Puzo's characters are thinking
is affront to anyone over the age of 6. It is obvious there
wasn't an Italian with a hundred miles at anytime this
book was being put together let alone a Puzo. I guess
Publishing and Hollywood aren't so far apart.

Thanks to everyone. Now I'm perfectly determined not to spend my time and money. I only have one question of sheer curiosity: What do Kay's parents do in this book? What could their part in the action possibly be? And, how everything ends?
If anyone would post spoiler on this account, I'll owe him a favor!

An observation - in a B.Dalton's book store in DC last week, the GFR was on the Best Seller's table on on a vertical rack near the front door. I passed by there today - GFR was removed from the Best Seller's table and the vertical rack was moved waaaay to the far side of the glass entrance. In fact, you would have to make an effort to find it. Mind you, it was not placed on the New Fiction table or the Ideal Gift table. It was not on the racks behind the cashiers.

Moreover, it had been 'priced to move' and was still not moving. The orignal price was $26.95 - they marked it down to $18.16 ($20.00 for non-book club members). There were still plenty of books on the rack.

I am slowly being purged of my guilt for not being able to connect with GFR. When a new release cannot be easily found at the start of the Christmas shopping season, that is not a good signal. It is still early, so this book may still turn the corner, but right now, at least in one major location, the book is wearing cement shoes.

Anyone else have 'bookstore' location assessments?

Amazon has lowered the price from $18.86 to $17.79.

Math is not my specialty, but what is that - a 33% hardback price reduction 2 weeks after release? I am sure that the principles of supply and demand will kick in at some point and the price will drop to a level at which consumers will buy the book, but this is trending toward being a 'dime-store novel' while still in hardback.

JL - Thanks - I went to Amazon and found the figures you posted. Some additional info - Amazon also offers 'in store pickup' for $16.17. If my handy dandy calculator is correct, that is a 40% mark down 2 weeks after release - incredible.

If anyone sees a hardback price of $13.48 (from a legitimate vendor - there are some small independents who are selling it from $14.48 and up), then we're at the 50% mark and definitely viewing a reverse auction. I think that the average hardback market price wil bottom out at 14.99 by Christmas.

I am almost through with this miserable excuse for a GF sequel. And not a moment too soon. I felt as if I had to buy and read it because of my activity on these boards. But I haven't regretted buying any book as much since I was forced to buy "McCarthy" by Roy Cohn (>spits on floor) for a class in graduate school.
Connie complicit in Fredo's murder? :rolleyes:
Molinari's bodyguards practicing karate moves at a Dons' meeting? :rolleyes:
Neri talking? :rolleyes:
Michael necking with Kay? :rolleyes:
Me, sticking with this pile of dogshit?

C'mon, Turnbull, tell us what you really think about the book. :p

I, like many of us here, have been reading Turnbull's posts for three years now. I can't remember reading any of his messages that contained more disgust than the one above.

FWIW - I agree with him.

I wanted to like this book so much. As a fan of the Godfather book and movies I wanted this to be at the very least a decent read. It wasn't!

The first half of the book had far too many large sections on nothing. Pointless bullshit just to explain away plot points used later in the book.

The second half improved but only slightly.

Overall the book was mudled (even allowing for the fact that the timescale was so fractured), and had none of the class of the original novel or GFI & GFII.

Winegardner even has Michael sitting at a cheap (IKEA type) desk with his guests sitting on orange plastic seats!! And the "Fred Corleone show"??? Enough already!

Another thing, why no mention of Frankie Pentangelli? He plays a fairly large part in GFII but has absolutely no mention in any part of this book? Was he abducted by aliens????

I have so much anger that I'm finding it hard to be articulate about it.....STUPID F**K!

I wonder what FFC thinks about this? He will be closer to the thought processes of Mario Puzo than maybe anybody else. Do you have his e-mail address JG? It would be interesting to hear his comments!

*Spoilers Below* (If it even matters anymore with this book)


Besides the general badness of this book, the few things that really made me want to burn this book after reading it were:

1) Nick Geraci. Michael's "most dangerous adversary yet".... Are you kidding me?
2) Michael and Kay making out in a theater "like kids".... Ughh
3) 'The Fred Corleone Show'.... nuff said
4) Unarmed Tom Hagen and a civilian knock off the Head of Chicago and his two armed body guards.... nuff said again
5) Any chapter before 30 that mentions Francesca Corleone.... I knew they were building up some storyline for her by boring me half to death in the first half of the book.

I followed the treat a while because in Holland I can't buy the book. I read a lot of bad reviews, so that suggests that I shouldn't buy the book. And even now, Turnbull is closing the poll. When a respected board member like him says something like this......well then just listen to him and shut up. Probably the book is real bad.

So Turnbull, I hope you don't lie (ofcourse not, but this is just a chance for a possible review of comments) because your word is kind of law on this board.

Thanks, MM, but nobody's word is law in matters of opinion. My opinions aren't worth more than anyone else's opinions. To my mind, a good book is a book that you think is good, a bad book is a book that you think is bad.
But I gave my honest opinion about "The Godfather Returns":
IT SUCKS!!!

I followed the treat a while because in Holland I can't buy the book. I read a lot of bad reviews, so that suggests that I shouldn't buy the book. And even now, Turnbull is closing the poll. When a respected board member like him says something like this......well then just listen to him and shut up. Probably the book is real bad.

So Turnbull, I hope you don't lie (ofcourse not, but this is just a chance for a possible review of comments) because your word is kind of law on this board. [/b][/quote]This is one of those books that is so bad, you may want to read it anyway. Kind of like watching an Ed Wood movie.

I cannot seem to get into this book! I stopped about halfway through and have no picked it up since my last post in this thread! B-O-R-I-N-G!!

Not for nothing, but from what I read so far, this author is clueless as to what the Godfather fans would have really liked! So far, there are some decent parts, but then he gets into some writing that is meaningless, and just seems to have been written to take up some space in the book! Yeah, I know, I shouldn't pass judgement until I finish the book, but so far it sucks! Several of us from these boards could have written a much better story than this guy did! Hey, if they ever make this book into a movie, then Jimmy Whispers Returns to Mulberry Street stands a good chance of winning an academy award!

Don Cardi

I think I liked it better than anyone else so far, and I didn't like it.

I cannot seem to get into this book! I stopped about halfway through and have no picked it up since my last post in this thread! B-O-R-I-N-G!!

Not for nothing, but from what I read so far, this author is clueless as to what the Godfather fans would have really liked! So far, there are some decent parts, but then he gets into some writing that is meaningless, and just seems to have been written to take up some space in the book! Yeah, I know, I shouldn't pass judgement until I finish the book, but so far it sucks! Several of us from these boards could have written a much better story than this guy did! Hey, if they ever make this book into a movie, then Jimmy Whispers Returns to Mulberry Street stands a good chance of winning an academy award!

Don Cardi

DC - I am in the same boat. I am plowing through this (still on 2nd read), but I just cannot get with GFR. I want to, I am trying, I keep thinking that maybe I skipped something that would make it happen for me, but I cannot 'connect'.

My initial concerns were on principal alone - follow up authors seldom if ever rearrange the original work. Even in the world of finance, every one knows that you can play with the interest, but you never fiddle with the principle.

On my second pass, I think that Winegardner is 'trying' to spin a tale of interest (I did like the Tessio's death scene and Cuba connection), but I cannot get with this. You know - this really reminds me of some parts of GF3 - a forced effort to fill in the gaps and bring some closure.

I am really trying to be fair and objective. However my habit is that I only need one bite of a hamburger to know that I am eating beef. Our expectations were raised for a great meal, but I am left asking 'Where is the beef?"

Back from my 3 day hiatus from these parts, and I am very pleased with what I read.
In responce to what Provalone said about the book store- It seems that after the initial publicity the book was getting, it seems to have died down considerably. Prehaps people actually read the book? My hopes are now higher that a GF4 is NOT in the works

JL - Thanks - I went to Amazon and found the figures you posted. Some additional info - Amazon also offers 'in store pickup' for $16.17. If my handy dandy calculator is correct, that is a 40% mark down 2 weeks after release - incredible.

If anyone sees a hardback price of $13.48 (from a legitimate vendor - there are some small independents who are selling it from $14.48 and up), then we're at the 50% mark and definitely viewing a reverse auction. I think that the average hardback market price wil bottom out at 14.99 by Christmas. [/quote]Their online price is now $16.17, and the book has fallen to #54 on their Top Seller List.

What interests me: what does the author have to say on this? With this level of bad reviews on a board like this he can't be to proud...

MMF:

My guess is that he probably does not care. His book has been released for all time and eternity and he received a pay check. In a broader sense, since he had the guts/gall to make modifications to the original characters, he probably is not the type to care what anyone thinks. I admire people who have a vision and stick to it, but in this case I wish he were the type to follow the dictates of his stakeholders.

I think you gave a very good answer. I think I fully agree with you.

What up peeps? New to the board. GF 1 is the best flick of all time. Part 3 was better than people give it credit for. Now about this book; what in the world is this? Why did he have to hit Fredo below the belt? Was that necessary? In the Puzo's book he was a good looking dude and tough, just a little slow. The Don was worried about Michael till he stepped up his game. It appears hes trying to live vicariously through this geraci(sp) character whose description sounds exactly like him but tougher. Some nonsense about fair haired, and could have passed for Irish or German? Michael's deadliest enemy yet? lol Gimme a break. John Wayne imitations on the phone? Puzo's estate must be reeling at this.

Anyway, hope I can fit in around these parts, pilgrim. lol

Rocco was already bald in 1945 when he whacked Paulie. I estimated Rocco to be about Fredo's age.

He probably said Cuneo & Stracci survived because only 2 of the five Dons were actually murdered in 1955. (Anastasia & ..... damn i havent been keeping up on my Mob trivia lately..)

He probably didnt mention them because he wasnt talented enough to think up something for them to do.

but in all honesty we have to agree that there is no way that the 3 dons would have survived the attacks in gf1. it's ludicris for mw to even suggest it. they state in the senate hearing that mike ordered the death of the five heads, not the 2 heads.

Book and movies differ. In the novel, Mike kills only two heads, his actual enemies, Barzini and Tattaglia. The rest is Coppola's invention . MW states that he meant to write sequel to the book, and the book only. Well.. Maybe he tried ...

(posted as per request)

As I stated in the "Should an Italian have written GFR" thread, one big problem I have with it is that Winegardner basically put himself into the story as Nick Geraci, and hyped that character up as being the deadliest opponent Michael has faced yet. Look at the similarities between Winegardner himself and Geraci, and you'll see what I mean.

The one thing that REALLY gets to me, though, is what happens to Geraci at the end of the novel. Now, in the book and all three movies, at the end ALL the family's enemies get killed, and the family settles ALL business. But at the end of GFR guess who's the ONLY person to live? You guessed it: Geraci. Now although I wouldn't call living like a hermit or whatever the hell it is he does (I just skimmed through that part because I was already bored from the rest of that crap) winning, he's the ONLY person, EVER, to not get killed when Michael initiates his grand scheme and kills all his enemies. That's complete bullcrap, and way too obvious to be a coincidence.

So in conclusion, yet another problem is Winegardner hypes his own character (who is obviously a souped up, badass version of himself) over other characters to live out some kind of dream or fantasy of his own.

Where do you get that idea?

Wouldn't that Gino person who finished The Family for Puzo have been an ideal choice to write GFR?

Thanx, Wayne. Sounds really stupid. Mike would find him in any Hermitage!

Carol Gino? It would seem so. But then we would have certain board members complaining that a woman wrote it. I think the logical choise would have been to not write GFR at all.

To re-phrase my statement, the book is so bad that "Just when I thought that I was in, the author's writing pulls me back out!"

Don Cardi

I decided to post my opinion of GFR before reading what all of you thought of it. However, by a couple of the topic titles here, I get the drift.

Anyway, I tried to view it openly, and as a new story. The first few chapters, particularly the plane crash with Gerasi seemed pretty interesting, and I thought perhaps this will be a decent read. Although, I can't recall "exact" quotes, much of the time I didn't feel like the Michael talking was the Michael we all know.

I didn't buy Fredo's being gay (or bi) at all. Fredo was dorky, and a wimp, but I just don't think someone who bangs cocktail waitresses two at a time as being "bi". I guess to me, it seemed that was just thrown in the story, with no real reason to put in in.

I found the Francesca Corleone storyline, particularly in the end kept my interest more than the rest of.

Truth of the matter is, I had to force myself to finish the book and was kind of bored during most of it. Of course I wanted to read it, or I wouldn't have bought it, but could have easily tossed it before I was half done.

Bottom line I was extremely disappointed and hope they don't make a movie of this book. I really think that the author, whether he is considered a good writer or not, was the wrong one to pen this book. Anyone of us could do a much better job. My grade is a D (and I guess I'm being generous. )

TIS

Carol Gino? It would seem so. But then we would have certain board members complaining that a woman wrote it. [/b][/quote]WHY? A woman at least won't bring herself in the story as the deadliest enemy of Michael's!

After we heard a GF book was coming, I never expected it to surpass, let alone be equal to the original GF. I would have been happy with just a plain old "Good" book. However, when you have to force yourself to read something, it's a true indication that that's simply not the case. :rolleyes:


TIS

Just finished reading the book last night.

I beleive the weakness lies in the underdevelopment of the characters and relationships we WANTED to learn more about - being Michael/Tom/Kay/Connie/Fontane.

What we GOT was the introduction of NEW characters, which we are aware of where the "fit" into the story - but we do not really "CARE" about.

I liked the parody of the JFK/Sinatra Shea/Fontane relationship. This was a bit TOO obvious - and whilst reading the book, I actually thought Corleones would "go after" the president. Dissapointed.

I liked the "twins" storyline - to an extent though. Too many pages were devoted to this - and i didn't "care" much about this development.

The Geraci plot was dead-set stupid. Underdeveloped, ilogical, a waste of space. Michael needed an "enemy" in this book - not a two bit pezzonovante traitor. The dialogue between these two characters was very poor - and portrayed Geraci as an idiot, and not a possible Corelone NY family Don.

The Fontane/Fratello/Fredo Corelone storyline reaked of the Sinatra/Dean Martin/Sammy David Jr relationship. Once again, maybe too obvious? Did the author just copy this straight from the history books?

Finally, I want to add that one thing that lacked in this book (and was very important in GF and GF1/2) was family. Where were the family dinners? celebrations? get togethers? festas? This sense of family (which is VERY VERY italian) was non-existant in this book.

The enjoyment i received from this book, was to hear a story about characters I love. The dissapointment, was that the story was not that great.

To all GF fans - read the book. It's not THAT bad. Just don't expect a thriller.

I echo TIS' statement that it was a decent book but nothing special. It took me over a month to read - it never held my interest in a riveting manner.

What I liked:
1) The surprise of having Tessio start the book and his whacking

2) I was surprised by Francesca's ending storyline. All that stuff leading up to it was pretty lame.

3) Hagen whacking out those 3 guys

4) The plane crash

5) Letting Geraci escape at the end. If this book was supposed to be a bridge b/w GF and GFII, then Michael needed to be looking over his shoulder. His "victory" was not complete with the Family and by losing Kay & the children.

6) Kay accusing Michael of whacking Jules for performing the abortion

7) Tom speaking his mind to Michael

What I disliked:
1) the continual rehashing of the 1st book (i.e. I'm paraphrasing: Hagen said that there's just some things you do and then never think about again.) There were way too many instances of this for a book. A writer does not need to "catch up" for his audience like a movie. The author should have realized that the majority of readers had already read Puzo's Godfather, thus having no need to re-explain things.

2) the Fredo storyline

3) having a character named Fuckface was just too corny

4) having the abortion be a miscarriage

5) why was Francesca married to Billy? What happened to Gardner Shaw?

6) If you've read the alternate script of GFII, then why wasn't reference made to Tom & Sandra having an affair?

7) Michael sitting down to a picnic