Ok, I was about to post this in the sport section, but with Jake LaMotta etc, I think it would be more interesting to post this in general disc.

Read before you vote.... (and please, I dont want to see Jake LaMotta winning this poll because of Raging Bull...be objective...) who is the greatest boxer that ever lived?

John L. Sullivan

The first modern world heavyweight champ. AKA "The Boston Strongboy"
Known for his extreme brutality. Started with bare-knuckles boxing matches and made his way to the top until the new age of "smart boxing" made him face the new techniques which were superior to his fighting style...or lack of it. He was very strong but not a tactical fighter.

Jack Dempsey

What can I say? he is my favorite boxer of all time. His fighting style and most of all his fighting spirit is so intense, that you just gotta love it. There were greater boxers later on, but none were so wonderful to watch. Hes the reason I started boxing myself.

Jack Johnson

The best defensive boxer that ever lived.
Some may not like his style, but its efficient nontheless. So efficient that he rocked the world again and again, most notably while defeating "The Great White Hope" AKA Jim Jeffries, the retired champ who was sent to defeat the black Johnson and restore the pride of the white race. But he didnt have a chance. His age was a factor and Johnson's defensive style proved once again how brilliant it is. He later became America's NO.1 enemy when siding with the germans and Max Schmeling against Joe Lewis, in what was known as "The fight of the century" - a nickname later used to describe the fight between Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier.

Joe Louis

The black boxer who represented America in the ultimate clash against Hitler Germany. Note the irony that a black boxer was chosen to defeat the germans. Like I said before, Max Schmeling had Jack Johnson on his side, which was a great advantage against Louis. In the first match Schmeling won, but the 1938 rematch was the prime of Louis' career. He won in what is arguably considered to be the real "fight of the century".
He later lost to Rocky Marciano who was a big fan of his, and that basically started the end of his glorious career.


Jake LaMotta

Do I need to say anything about his mob connection?...maybe I should just quote LaMotta himself while explaining his actions :

"I did what I had to do to get a shot at the title, and if I had to do it all over again, I'd do the same thing."

That was the case. The mob's influence on the boxing world was huge. Frankie Carbo AKA Mr.Grey was THE mobster to see if a lil fight fixing was what you want. As for Jake LaMotta, he needed the mobsters to give him the shot at the title which he truly deserved but couldnt get on his own. He accepted the deal to sell a fight, he later testified about it, the rest is history, we've got a movie called "Raging Bull" and so on.

As a boxer, he was outstanding, earning the name "Raging Bull" and rightly so. However, too bad for him, ha had to face a superior opponent in the shape of Sugar Ray Robinson....the man who would become the greatest boxer that ever lived. He lost 5 times out of 6 to Robinson, and I think the numbers speak for themselves. LaMotta was a great boxer, but certainly not as good as Robinson.


Sugar Ray Robinson

The greatest boxer of all time....IMO anyway.
In his style, Robinson basically represents the new age of boxing. The superb technique which depends on constant leg movement has proven to be the most efficient one. A combination of speed, tactics and power that is no less than breathtaking. In a nutshell, he was the ultimate fighter.

Muhammad Ali

Probably the most famous boxer. Any grandma who knows jack about boxing will recognize the name. Im not going into all his off-ring stories which you're all familiar with. As far as boxing goes, he stunned the world when he defeated Sonny Liston in a fight, which was considered by many to be a "fix"...and that was not the last time the word "fix" was used against Ali. However, he made his way to the top, and will always be remembered for his famous matches against Joe Frazier, most notably "The Thrilla in Manila" - a fight which is considered by many (including me) to be the greatest boxing match the world has ever witnessed. Really, I watched this fight like 200 times, and it never cease to amaze me. You really see 2 guys who barely stand on their feet, yet they continue to fight to the very last drop of blood so to speak. A truly "heroic" fight which symbolizes the willpower of man. Yeah, I just wrote that line.

Mike Tyson

What can I say, he was the goldenboy of boxing. "Iron Mike" was trained by no less than legendary coach Cus D'Amato. Despite D'Amato's death, Tyson continued to win again and again. He will always be remembered for "The Bite Fight" during which he tried a piece of Holyfield's ear, and of course...for the match against Lennox Lewis, where he lost the title but managed to redeem his "badass image" with the gesture of wiping Lennox' blood from his eyes....who said boxing is a barbaric sport? cant u see the love?

Allright then, I'm gonna finish with this, I've left a few names which truly deserve to be listed here...anyone wants to say a word about Floyd "The Gentleman" Patterson?

I know it was a long read, but you should thank me it was only about certain boxers...you dont want me to start talking about the history of boxing and the Queensberry Rules do you?

So in conclusion, my fav boxer is Jack Dempsey, but my vote goes to Sugar Ray Robinson - definitely the greatest boxer of all time.

The greatest? single choice
	Floyd Patterson
	John L. Sullivan
	Jack Dempsey
	Jack Johnson
	Jim Jeffries
	Joe Louis
	Max Schmeling
	Rocky Marciano
	Jake LaMotta
	Sugar Ray Robinson
	Muhammad Ali
	Joe Frazier
	Mike Tyson
	Lennox Lewis
Votes accepted starting: 12/31/69 08:00 PM You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.

How can you not put Rocky Marciano, He did go undefeated!!!!!!!!

My Bad I Didn't see Rocky Marciano

LaMotta is one guy of several who doesn't belong in there with those other greats.

Except for one (I thimk it was one) win over Sugar Ray, his career was nothing special.

Sugar Ray Leonard, Marvin Hagler, and Larry Holmes all come to mind as being better than LaMotta, and I'm sure I can think of others.

I don't think a reasonable case can be made for Lennox Lewis, Frazier, or Schmeling, and certainly not Floyd Patterson, either.

Anyway, my vote goes to Ali.

Sugar Ray Robinson long ago started being regarded as the all-time pound-for-pound best professional fighter ever. I believe he's stood the test of time. Almost 200 professional fights, multiple titles and defenses in multiple weight classes (at a time when weight classes meant something)...sheer talent.
All of the others had their high points and earned their time in the spotlight. Ali, in particular, helped to resurrect boxing at a time when it had fallen into the trashcan. And, before they stripped him of his title, he was a thing of beauty and a joy forever... But Robinson was the best.

I agree that some of the choices listed in the poll don't deserve to be there. Floyd Patterson, Mike Tyson, Lennox Lewis and Jake LaMotta are laughable considering the company of the others.

Willie Pep and Henry Armstrong should have been included in their places.

Now for the best:

Joe Louis had his "bum-of-the-month" opponents but he fought some quality names, too (Max Baer, Max Schmeling, Billy Conn, Jim Braddock). I rule him out, though, since most of his career was spent against "no-names".

Rocky Marciano, although maybe the hardest hitting fighter ever, gets ruled out for the same reason. Sure, he was undefeated (and thats something to consider) and sure, he fought some quality opponents (Archie Moore, Jersey Joe Walcott Ezzard Charles) but like Louis he fought mostly "no-names".

Sugar Ray Robinson was the best pound for pound fighter and he had the most "best" opponents. He had speed, cunning and surprising power (over 50% of his wins were KO's).

Muhammad Ali had everything to give him the title (as best ever). Great opponents, great speed, great power. I give him a slight edge over Robinson.

Rocky Balboa was the greatest of them all

Interestingly, neither Louis nor, especially, Marciano would be considered heavyweights today. Louis usually fought at under 200 lbs.; Marciano at about 185--cruiserweights today.
Ezzard Charles weighed 184 when he defeated the over-the-hill Louis (blown up to 218) in 1950. Some ring historians think Charles was a boxing great. Others note that he was "owned" by Frankie (Mr. Gray) Carbo of the Mob.

Ali himself considered Sugar Ray Robinson to be the greatest pound for pound fighter of all time.

But I have trouble with these types of argument. As long as the best are bunched together and considered in the argument - that's all what matters. The rest is subjective due to strength of opponants, era they fought, etc.

Fame, if you start a favourite boxer of all time thread I'd be much more eager to offer my input.

Im not gonna start another thread on the topic, so feel free to offer your input Turs. Id like to hear about your fav boxers. My choice, like I said, is Dempsey.

Admittedly I don't know enough to properly judge who was the Greatest, probably Robinson or Ali, but Jack Dempsey gets my vote - for his sheer aggression. The man was a coiled spring, naturally aggressive; a born fighter. I too find him the most inspiring of boxers, Fame. And of course there's thatleft hook.

I always loved watching Chris Eubank. More than anybody else.

Did you ever see any old film clips of Marciano?

He was at least as agressive as Dempsey,and possibly more so.

Dempsey knew how to box.....at least a little bit - jabs, counter-punching, defense, etc., and used those skills at times, but Marciano's style was nothing but wade in and throw bombs.

A lot like Mike Tyson and Joe Frazier, actually, but I think he was even more of a slugger from what little I've seen.

To me, it's a toss up between Marciano and Ali.

No question that they were two different styled fighters, but none the less both the greatest in their own right.

Ali :

Record: 56 Wins, 5 Loss, 37 Knockouts

1960 Olympic Light Heavyweight Gold Medallist

Heavyweight Champion 1964-67, 1974-78, 1978-79


Marciano :

Record: 49 Wins, 0 Loss, 43 Knockouts

The ONLY undefeated champion in ANY weight class in the history of gloved boxing.

Heavyweight Champion 1952-1956


Tough call.


Don Cardi

I know nothing about boxing, but from what I saw from clips of those named here, (and considering Raging Bull :p ), I think Cassius Clay and Sugar Ray were the best. Can't chose between them. Runner-up is Joe Louis.

Ali, in his prime, would've boxed rings around Marciano, I think.

The level of competition in the Heavyweight Division was much stronger during Ali's day, and he fought and beat just about everyone during his 17-18 years on top.

While Marciano was undefeated, he was not on top very long before retiring, and didn't beat nearly as many "name" fighters in their prime as Ali did.

The four best that Rocky faced were Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, Joe Walcott, and Archie Moore, all of whom had seen better days to some degree.

The guys Ali fought and beat were mostly in their prime when he beat them.

As I said Plaw, it's a tough call. But let's address some of the points that you've made here.

When Ali aka Clay turned pro, in his first 15 or so fights, the only name that he fought was Ingmar Johannson, the rest were just a bunch of no names. Then after a few more fights he took on the legendary Archie Moore. But Moore's better days were way behind him and obviously Ali's handlers set him up for that fight only because of Moore's past reputation. It was a good name that was sure to bring Ali some recognition. Then it wasn't until 2 years later that he fought and defeated Sonny Liston. Then again basically a bunch of no names for another year until his fight with Floyd Patterson in 1965. In reality after the Patterson fight it was not until 1971 that he again faced a reputable opponent in Smokin Joe Frazier. Of course we know that he could not fight for two years in between facing Patterson and Frazier.

In truth, the only reputable fighters that he fought for the rest of his career was Frazier, a 37 year old Floyd Patterson, Ken Norton, George Foreman, Ernie 'questionable' Shavers, Leon 'was he really that good' Spinks and Larry Holmes.


Again, not taking anything away from Ali, as I said he was definitely one of if not the greatest, but he had a lot of no name fights in between those name fights throughout his career. I think that his persona added to his great fights is what made him that much more popular in the boxing world.


As for Marciano, well I don't know if you could really say that Archie Moore had seen his better days when he fought Marciano in 1955 as compared to Ali fighting Moore in 1962. As for the rest from that list, you are right. The youngest one from that list that Marciano fought was probably a 31 year old Ezzard Charles. And if I'm not mistaken, I don't believe that Marciano was EVER knocked down in a fight.


Don Cardi

Patterson probably should have gotten the award for Most Chances Given to No-Name Fighters. In '57, he fought Pete Rademacher, a former Olympian who never had a professional fight before he stepped into the ring with Floyd; in '58, Roy (Cut 'n Shoot) Harris, who had fought anyone of any substance previously. I think both of them knocked him down (Harris lasted more than 12 rounds). Then in '59, Johansen, who'd never fought in America before, knocked him out with the famous "t'oonder." The rematch was the only time I ever saw Patterson with the killer look.

Im not gonna start another thread on the topic, so feel free to offer your input Turs. Id like to hear about your fav boxers. My choice, like I said, is Dempsey. [/b][/quote]My favourite fighter from the past would probably be Roberto Duran. I'm very much looking forward to his biography coming out soon. He never ducked anyone and especially in such a competitive era of Leonard, Hearns, Hagler et al.

I also liked JC Chavez. His record and career speaks for himself. His son looks good too, the kid has potential.

Right now my favourite fighters are:

Enzo Maccarinelli, an up and coming Welshman at Cruiser and his next fight should be for a world title. I personally feel he could go on to dominate the division.

I just love Oscar De La Hoya too. He's just the man, everything about him is so likable. It'll be a sad day when the Golden Boy retires which I don't want to see but talk of a fight against Floyd Mayweather Jr scares me.

Calzaghe has always been a favourite but suffered two problems. First he has been protected for a little too long until his recent fight against Lacy. Secondly many fighters dodge him. Ricky Hatton also suffers the same fate.

(Just for the record, DC, Ali never fought Ingemar Johannson.)

If you examine and compare their records closely, you will see that Marciano was nothing more than a club fighter, really, who fought most of his early bouts – nd many of his later ones - in and around the New England area - mostly Providence, RI - against a series of nobodies.

He didn't receive any real national recognition until his fight against Joe Louis, who was many years past his prime and only fighting because he owed the IRS a huge amount of money.

When Marciano beat Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles, both fighters were well into their 30’s, and you could argue that the only heavyweight of note in his prime that Marciano beat was Archie Moore, who was really just an over-stuffed light heavyweight.

Clay/Ali, meanwhile, beat just about every single heavyweight of note from 1963 until 1978, and you left quite a few of them off your list of Ali's credible opponents.

Doug Jones, Henry Cooper (twice), Sonny Liston (twice), Floyd Patterson (twice), George Chuvalo (twice), Cleveland Williams, Ernie Terrell, Zora Foley, Jerry Quarry (twice), Oscar Bonavena, Joe Frazier (won 2 out of 3), Jimmy Ellis, Ken Norton (lost their first fight, then won the rematch), George Foreman, Ron Lyle, Ernie Shavers, and Leon Spinks (lost their first fight and won the rematch).

Many of those fights took place during the time when you sy that "In reality after the Patterson fight it was not until 1971 that he again faced a reputable opponent in Smokin Joe Frazier."

In fact, during that period he fought and beat Chuvalo, Cooper, Williams, Terrell, Foley, Quarry, and Bonavena, who were the top heavyweights of that time period and all considered reputable opponents.

Liston, who was the champion, Paterson, who was the former champ, and Williams, Terrell, Frazier, Ellis, Norton, and especially Foreman, were all considered outstandingfighters – not that the others weren’t important contenders - and most were in their prime or close to it when Ali beat them.

Most of all, though, is the fact that Ali was much bigger, stronger, and faster than Marciano, who I see as comparable in style to Joe Frazier, only a bit smaller, I think.

I think that the main reason Marciano receives the credit that he does is because he retired undefeated.

If he had lost a flukey decision or something in a four-rounder early in his career and retired at 48-1 instead of 49-0, people wouldn’t give him a second thought in a discussion about who the greatest ever was, and he would’ve been regarded the same way we think of Joe Frazier: A “know no fear” slugger, who won a lot of fights with punching power and heart, but wasn’t really that great a fighter.

All he proved to me by retiring undefeated was that he was perhaps a little bit smarter than most fighters before and after him, not necessarily that he was any better.

Plaw, I believe that they fought when Ali first turned pro.


Turi, EXCELLENT choice. I'm as guilty as the originator of this topic in not even mentioning him among these other fighters. He totally slipped my mind. DUH. Absolutely one of the best fighters in the history of boxing.


Don Cardi

Marciano was knocked down twice (that I know of). In his fight against Walcott (when Rocky won the title) Marciano was knocked down in the first round and he was way behind in points when he finally knocked Jersey Joe out in the 13th round. (Walcott was almost 40 years old at that time and the toll of the fight tired him out enough for Marciano to finish him off - if it was a 12 rounder Walcott would have kept the title).

Archie Moore also knocked Marciano down (in the second round) in Rocky's last fight. Ezzard Charles had Marciano on the ropes early on in their second fight and the fight was almost stopped when Marciano's nose was split open.

Perhaps, but Marciano took a good deal of punishment in addition to giving it out and that counts for something. He was, IMO, the hardest hitting fighter of all time. His record of 88% of wins by KO (43 of 49 fights) is testament to that. He was a better fighter than you're giving him credit for.

If Ali and Marciano fought each other in their primes, Ali would have outboxed him but the fight would have gone the distance and Ali would have won only because of his superior physical being.

Ali never would have beat Marciano! :p (it's an Italian thing )


SC, I know that you are an Ali fan. Didn't he fight Johannsen very early in his career when he was Clay?


Don Cardi

Ali and Johanssen never fought.

Another reason why Marciano was so well-regarded was that he was modest, articulate and well-spoken--a big contrast with the flashy, thuggish or inarticulate image of fighters in general. Patterson also was well-liked for his modest, even gentle, ways, and because he was an Olympian and was the youngest heavyweight champ ever. But the heavyweight division began going downhill after he ran out of credible opponents and was knocked down by some of them. After the the first Johanssen fight, a lot of people lost faith in Floyd--they thought his gentle manner indicated a lack of "killer instinct" that had sustained Dempsey and others. He regained some credibility after the Johanssen rematch (first-ever h'weight champ to regain the title), but the two Liston defeats sank him forever--he seemed paralyzed with fear. Liston's tenure marked the nadir of the h'weight division and boxing in general. Ali singlehandedly brought boxing back. Every fighter since owes him a debt.
Ali also was responsible for a landmark Supreme Court decision in the Civil Rights era:
The government hated Ali's "uppity" ways and the fact that he became a Muslim at a time of civil unrest and "Black Power." He was draft-eligible, but flunked the intelligence test ("I always said I was the greatest--not the smartest"). The Selective Service System then dumbed down the intelligence test--supposedly to meet higher draft calls for the Vietnam War, but really to ensnare Ali.
Ali then claimed exemption as a Muslim minister. His local draft board turned him down. Ali made numerous appeals, all turned down. Finally, he refused induction. He was immediately stripped of his championship, even though he hadn't even been indicted yet. He spent more than two years (and $2 million in legal fees) fighting it all the way to the Supreme Court.
The Court ruled, unanimously, in Ali's favor. He was registered in a Selective Service local district in Houston, TX. The population was nearly all black. But all of the Draft Board members were white. The Supreme Court ruled that, in the future, Draft Boards had to reflect the racial and ethic character of the neighborhoods they represented--a giant step forward in accountability, given the near-total power that the Selective Service had over young men at the time.

My favorite fighter (as opposed to the best fighter) was a Cuban welterweight, Kid Gavilan, who fought in the Forties and Fifties. I used to see him on the Friday Night Fights (with Jimmy Powers). His flashy style and "bolo" punch fascinated me as a kid. He had a 103-30 record with only 26 kayos. But he was the champ for several years, and he fought every welterweight contender of the era: Paddy DeMarco, Ray Robinson (twice), Ike Williams, Bobo Olson, Johnny Saxon, Johnny Bratton, Billy Graham, etc.

True, but I grew up being a Rocky Marciano fan.

Ok, I remember watching something about ALI on televison and could have sworn that they said that Clay fought Johansson early in his career. I just did a search for Ali's matches and it turns out that Clay and Johansson sparred back in 1961. My bad. I knew that I heard about them fighting, but didn't know that it was only a sparring match.

Hey TB, when I was a kid I went through a phase where I was really into boxing. So my dad bought me some 8MM films for my 8MM projector ( remember those? ) and I remember seeing some films on guys like Kid Gavelin, Kid Chocolate, Willie Pep, Sandy Sandler, Bobo Olsen, Carmen Basilio, Lulu Perez, etc.

I think that I still have some of those 8MM films somewhere. Now after reading this topic, I'm itching to view them again.


Don Cardi

Lets not forget Tony Janiro. Who is Tony Janiro, you ask? Look on the back page of the newspaper when Michael Corleone reads about his father getting shot. :p

True story. About 10 years ago I went to an autogrpah show up in Connecticut and stood overnight at a hotel. Jake LaMotta was at that show and it turned out that he was staying in the same hotel as I was in. So that evening we went for a few drinks at the bar and LaMotta was sitting at the bar. He was conversing with us and everyone was asking him questions about his career, etc. I asked him if the part in Raging Bull was accurate about his wanting to destroy Janiro after his wife Vicky said that Janiro was good looking.

LaMotta said to us that when he faced Janiro in the ring, all he kept thinking about was that his wife thought that Janiro was good looking and the thought of that enraged LaMotta so bad that all he wanted to do was destroy Janiro's face, and he did.

Someone also asked him what his toughest fight ever was and after pausing to think about it for a few moments, he looked up and said " My second wife!"


Don Cardi

Certainly I remember 8mm films, DC. But, I don't remember seeing Gavilan, Olson, Basilio, etc. All I saw was people wearing high socks and sunglasses--and nothing else.

Growing up in the Miami area, I had a lot of chances to see bixing, and loved it. When he was still Cassius Clay, Ali used to come on the local sports show and predict the rounds he would K.O. his opponents. This was still when he was training in Miami Beach and fighting on undercards.

I also had the chance to see the second Emil Griffith - Benny Kid Paret fight (the one before he killed Paret). I met Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, and Ingemar Johansson.

I have a long ago remembrance of Carmen Basilio...wasnt he a big bleeder?

Its sad to see the state of Boxing these days....its more like pro wrestling. I wish they would organize it, have a commissioner and get the likes of Don King out of it. I am sick of having 15 champions in every division.

As for who was the greatest of all time...no question. ALI