After only 2 years of American might there is hope in Iraq. The Iraq people have there 1st elected government and they are no longer under the rule of a evil dictator. there are no more Rape rooms or torture chambers, women are aloud to vote for the 1st time, the dream that George W Bush saw as freedom in the Middle East is coming to life. God Bless our President.
Why arent the Left Wingers in this country happy that we saved millions of lives? They are always saying we should get involved in countries that are hurting and rapeing and torturing their people but since George W Bush was the one who said Enough is Enough they are all mad. Like I said before God Bless the man who will go down in history as one of the greatest Presidents in the history of the USA.
And why might I ask that today in one of the biggest days in the history of the world with the Iraq vote that Harry Reid the Senate Leader for the Dems made a speech and made no mention of the Iraq vote today? The same with Chuck Schumer from NY. These people are so full of it it makes me laugh.

DS

DS

Get ready for the casualty list, DS. Some folks here have the gift of turning the positive into the negative.

Don Smitty. I am very happy for the Iraqi People as this is another major step in the right direction. And I am happy for our young troops and all the coalition troops because this is a result of their hard work and their efforts to help the Iraqi people.

As far as the two Senators, well I must stick up for Senator Charles Schumer. I have to say that he's been an advocate on the safety of our country and has pushed our government to provide the funds to secure our trains, tunnels, waterways, etc. He has supported the President many times since 9/11 and has given him hell when he's had to. So I don't neccessarily agree that Schumer is not happy about what is taking place in Iraq as far as the elections, etc.

Now as far as Democratic Senate Leader Reid goes, well I have to agree with you there. I've seen him speak many times about the War in Iraq and what has happened, and he's always negative. I have yet to see him applaud any kind of success that's been acheived. I have yet to see him commend our soldiers in any way.

Schumer commends them every chance that he gets.

With Reid, it's plain hate and ignorance, as there is no doubt in my mind that he is one of these guys who's blinded by his hatred for this administration and would love nothing more than to see them fail so he can say to the people " See, I told you so!"

It is my opinion that Schumer is a pretty fair guy on many issues. Reid is a narrow minded person.


Don Cardi

No more torture chambers >> Don't you follow the news?

Mighty Bush stirred up a hornets nest and made a big, mad elephant out of an annoying mosquito, how can you be proud of that? This conflict / civil war won't be over for years to come, do you think the people causing trouble in Iraq are any different from the Palestinians? Neither do I and they have been going at it for decades as will continue to do so. Now we both know that our children will even be faced by the mess Bush made for us. Conclusion: If you don't understand it, don't mess with it!

See, DS? What did I tell you?

Only two years? With how many more to come? At the cost of how many more American lives and how much money?

Do you really believe that Bush invaded Iraq because of "a dream of freedom in the Middle East?"

They're not necessarily unhappy. they just think that the cost, in terms of money and American lives, was too great.

With the exception of Patrick, I don't think there is one member here who says that (I could be wrong, there may be one or two others).

As far as other members of the left are concerned, if you're gonna speak for them you should be prepared to cite your sources.

If anything, what they do say (and what Patrick's point is) is that if we are going to go around the world helping people from other countries, then there are a lot of people from other countries who need our help more than the Iraqis.

Let's not get carried away here. Yes, he deposed Sadaam. Is that enough to have him go down in history as one of the greatest Presidents ever? Let's wait a while on that one, shall we?

It's wonderful that Iraq had free elections today. I wish the country nothing but peace and prosperity.

But to call today "one of the biggest days in the history of the world" is an exxageration, I think.

Well....let me qualify that statement:

I guess if you want to say that modern history has been around for maybe 1000 years, or about 365,000 days, and rated those days in importance from #1 (the most important) to #365,000 (the least important), and you want to say that the top one-quarter of one per-cent of those days - about 900 or so all together - make the list of "The Most Important In The History Of The World", then OK, it is.

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm very happy for the Iraqi people. I'm glad, now that the invasion is a fait accompli, that they're rid of Sadaam, and I hope that democracy takes hold and the country becomes free and prosperous.

But let's not delude ourselves here.

Don Smitty, next you'll be telling us you believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.

"God bless this man.." pass the sickbag.

Anyone who believes that George W Bush is a force for good is sadly misguided.

Hey DS. If I am right, wasn't it you who suggested we nuke Iraq as we leave? Surely you care about the Iraqis less than anyone.

Thank goodness for our friend Plaw. While he may not be on the same side as others on many issues, and while he may see things differently than others do at times, at least he makes a contribution to these topics and makes posts and replies that have some substance to them. If you agree with him or not, you must admit that her never resorts to one liners and attacks.

It's people like you Plaw, opposite view or not, that keeps me coming back into this thread.

Thanks for getting your point across Plaw without resorting to the ignorant one liners or the imature attacks.


Don Cardi

Elaborate.

Yes, his patience does appear to be infinite, and he is to be commended for not giving certain contributions shorter shrift.

Now for someting that may be very difficult to understand for your average American (just an assumption) who thinks democracy is the best and only just basis for a government:

The cradle of civilization lies in Iraq.

The first city EVER was founded in Iraq.

The first written constitution EVER was written in Iraq.

As democracy became popular in ancient Greece, it has not always been uncritisized. Ask Socrates, Plato or Aristotle (ever heard of Aristocracy?) who are regarded as very wise men.

I think democracy is the best basis for government for most countries / peoples / cultures.

A country like Iraq however, is not neccesairily one of them. In most of their existence (under Persian rule, The Ottoman Empire, etc) there was no democracy and that's not bad, per definition. In Saddam's case it was of course but in a lot of other, much longer periods of times, it wasn't. It's their culture that might tend more towards wanting to have one strong leader which leads to dictatorship; in some cases bad, in some cases good, just like democracy (catching my drift yet?).

I don't think this question has ever come to mind to a lot of people on this forum:

Is democracy really best for the people of Iraq?

What if they democratically decide to abolish democracy and become a Nation ruled by Islam and the sharia, will this choice of the people be respected by the West?

This is one of the key issues: Understanding different cultures, opinions and beliefs and live peacefully side-by-side, regardless of these differences.

In my opinion, Bush does not condone this kind of thinking. I think he is convinced the whole world should be "liberated" and live as people (/mass consumers) in the US and if they don't he's gonna kick their asses because he feels he's right and they're wrong and the bible says so too so everyone can just put up or shut up.

Meanwhile, he lies when it suits him, talks about freedom without understanding the meaning of it and calls any critic a left-wing radical, unpatriotic, a coward, a communist or evIL.

Am I right or am I right?

E Lucky R, what you say is very true. In a recent survey in Iraq, just 29 per cent thought that democracy was important, whereas 56 per cent thought that a strong leader was the most important factor in a safe, stable Iraq.

It is a result of extraordinary Western arrogance that we assume we can, like a fairy godmother, grant the people of a backward Eastern country the magic gift of democracy, and that will solve all their problems at a stroke.

This is a deluded, simplistic idea. Successful democracies evolve, they are not imposed - a lesson we ought to have learned from Africa.

Iraq is a disaster of Western intermeddling in Eastern affairs. It was none of our business, but the cash from oil was too much for Bush's lobbyists to resist.

^^^^ What happens when you observe a "I will die for George Bush" supporter.

I don't doubt those numbers. But we must realize that these polls are from people who have never tasted real freedom and democracy as you and I have. They only know a certain way of life and it's been under a leader who rules them. It must be very confusing for these people right now. Human nature is that when you face the unknown, you tend to want to go back to what you already know, what was once secure in it's own way for you. You look for the comforts that you are familiar with when faced with the unknown.

I am sure that if you Poll someone like Aziatic, who's lived both under a dicator and in a democracy, someone like him, having tasted what it is like to live in a real free world, will tell you that democracy is very important.


It's very hard for those who have lived in Iraq all of their lives to tell you if democracy is important to them, because, having never experienced it, they really don't know what democracy is like.

So to me a poll like this one is not really a true poll.

Which is better, Chocolate or Vanilla?

Can you really give a true answer if you have not tasted both?





Don Cardi

Well ok, DC, but what is clear is that the Iraqi people feel the need for a strong leader to take charge in a volatile country. You and I live in stable, safe countries, and can afford the luxury of democratic procrastination. Iraqis are living in a tinderbox country, where the need for one leader to take a strong stand is prescient. So the matter is not so much one of experience as it is necessity.

At one time my country was not a stable country. Many here feared the freedoms that were given to them after the civil war. Many of the slaves refused to leave their owners because they feared the unknown. They feared the thought of being free and on their own. So they went back to the only way of life that they ever knew, being slaves under a master. But because they went back to their old way of life did not mean that the new way of life was not good for them. They just did not know better. The same mentality applies with the Iraqi people.

They only know living under a leader and now being faced with a way of life that they know nothing about, a way that is becoming more real to them, it is scary to them so therefore they feel that maybe it is better for them to go back to what they once had, a leader who runs the country.


Don Cardi

Your assumption, DC, that we know better than the Iraqi people themselves what is best for them is a way of thinking that many object to.

That's exactly the point that Lucy's Doctor was making in his next to last post, and E Lucky R was making in his last.

Well I apologize if what I wrote above seemed to give the impression that I felt that we know better than the Iraqi people. That was never my intent. My real motive was to point out that the Iraqi people really cannot know which is better way of life for them because they only know one way of life. It was my intent that we all try and understand them.

Again, not to say that we know better than they do. Surely we don't have any idea what it is like to live under a tyrrany or a dictator. I only know living in a democracy. Anything I know about living under a dictator is purely from what I''ve been told by those who have. And that is exactly why I used Aziatic as an example of someone who has experienced both ways of life, and did not use any of us as an example.

Surely he would know better than anyone of us here.


Don Cardi

Someone once said that "democracy" was the most promiscuous word in the English language. If you consider a free and fair election process as step on the road to a better society then this is definitely a good thing.

Elections are great...as long as they produce the right result.

Now most people here would consider Austria to be a liberal democracy. About 10 years ago the results of a free and fair election in Austria meant in a man called Jorg Haider was elegible for a seat in the government. Problem was that Haider was the leader of what was basically the Nazi party by another name. So other "democrats" in Austria and around the "free" world decided that if Haider was in the government they would refuse to work with it. Eventually Haider gave up his government seat in order that the Austrian government could function. Democracy huh!

I perfectly remember the episode you mention. Well, if "a basically Nazi party" leader gives up his government seat, it's good news for me, Senza Mama. If Western democracies had made more pression on Germany at the time of Hitler's rise, maybe the wordl would not had experienced the WWII tragedies, included the Holocaust. If such a thing called "international community" really exists, it's perfectly understandable that things like that happen. And consider that Austria and Germany have sort of a "special eye" on them, due to their past.

Wow, there are some sensible people on this forum after all!

I perfectly remember the episode you mention. Well, if "a basically Nazi party" leader gives up his government seat, it's good news for me, Senza Mama. If Western democracies had made more pression on Germany at the time of Hitler's rise, maybe the wordl would not had experienced the WWII tragedies, included the Holocaust. If such a thing called "international community" really exists, it's perfectly understandable that things like that happen. And consider that Austria and Germany have sort of a "special eye" on them, due to their past. [/b][/quote]I don't disagree with you Lavinia, my point is that if the election is inconclusive or puts someone in power we don't like then suddenly it won't seem such a good idea.

It is still a good idea, because there is no democracy without elections. Trouble is WHY that given person turned crucial for the government coalition to get the majority in Parliament. Because being the leader of a Nazi-like party is definitely not the best visiting car in politics and the other parties' leaders should have never considered him as a possible ally, even without pression from outside the country. But then again, even with all its flaws and faults, democracy is still the best political system IMO. Sandro Pertini, one of the most popular Italian Presidents, who experienced prison and exile under Fascim, used to say: "I prefer the worst democracy over the best dictatorship". I think he was right.

Democracy...
In the Dutch part of Belgium, 25% of the people voted, in democratic circumstances, for an extreme-right, racist party, with an ultra-liberal economic course. This party was founded, and is still leaded by the same people who colleborated with Hitler. It's very possible that this party will rule the city of Antwerp in 2006, and maybe Belgium later on. But that's relative, because as soon as they win the elections, Belgium won't exist anymore (literraly).

All that under the wings of democracy...
People don't always know what's best for them.

so what would you propose as an alternative?

I don't want an alternative, but sometimes people do stupid things when they have the freedom of democracy. Like electing an anti-democratic party, that is bad for them.

Here, here! I second that!

And Lavinia, people don't always know what's best for them. That's why we need dictators and Communism!

You can make a joke, but keep in mind that communism is a good thing.